Vince Pitelka on sun 1 feb 04
This has been discussed periodically on Clayart before, and there is plenty
of info in the archives. The circumstances of the discovery of clay are
pretty obvious, despite some hairbrained theories to the contrary in the
minds of archaeologists and anthropologists independent of any ceramic
knowledge.
Paleolithic hunter-gatherers were nomadic, and traveled over fairly set
routes, dependent on the changes of the seasons and available food sources.
It is logical that they would select their campsites carefully, and thus
would return to the same campsites again and again. Also, they would select
their firepit carefully, and thus would use them repeatedly. A firepit
built up against a rock or earth back-wall reflects more heat towards the
huddled group. If an earthen clay bank, the heat of the coals would of
course fire the clay.
Upon coming back to the same spot they would discover that the "fired"
hearth had become resistant to the effects of rain and runoff. Thus the
discovery of fired clay. They would already have been well aware of the
plastic qualities of clay, because it is so abundant, and so irresistible.
So, even the primitive Neolithic intellect would put two-and-two together,
and pretty soon you have fired figurines. It is likely that they made other
fired forms, but it is doubtful that they made pots, because of course
ceramic pots are not very compatible with a nomadic hunter-gatherer
lifestyle.
With all due respect to those who believe in the clay-lined basked falling
in the fire, it overlooks the obvious. Both the creation of a woven basket,
and the practical step of lining it with clay so as to make it hold ground
materials are acts requiring considerable creative intellect and reasoning
power. The discovery of fired clay in an earthen hearth is much easier than
that.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Mike Gordon on sun 1 feb 04
Hi,
I'm reading a great book titled " The Codex" by Douglas Preston, great
writer, who sometimes co authors with Lincoln Child. Check their
website for a list, great reading! Anyway....... in the book the
characters are in a dugout canoe, on a river in Honduras rainforest,
fighting swarms of mosquitos. So they light a small fire of twigs and
cover with wet leaves, and produce lots of smoke which keeps the bugs
away. To keep the fire from burning out the bottom of the dugout they
place the fire on a wet pad of clay. An old practice in rain forest, by
the natives. Gee... look what happened to the clay after the fire!!!
Pretty far fetched, I know but it works for my imagination! Mike Gordon
Earl Brunner on mon 2 feb 04
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Vince
Pitelka
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 5:34 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: first ceramics/fired
No, Earl, nomadic Native Americans did not make pots. Native Americans
who
were settled in villages, like the Mississippean, Woodland, and Anasazi
made
pots.
[Earl Brunner]
Don't know about that, but in central Nevada in the 60's when I was a
Boy Scout, we found LOTS of pottery shards in areas with no real long
term established "villages". Maybe the problem here is what we are
calling nomadic. These people moved with the food, but did have
"villages", I just don't think they were permanent; maybe seasonal. If
they move, doesn't that make them nomadic? Even if they stay in
different places for periods of time?
Vince said:
EARL! Pay attention. Did I ever suggest anything like that at all?
No, I
didn't. Weaving and basketry were of course of real value to
Paleolithic
humans, in that the products were so portable
[Earl Brunner]
It is an attention problem, I misread you as quoted below. I read the
wrong implication into what you were saying. Sorry. Accidental firing
or not, someone had to make an observation at some point and make that
mental leap to application. HOW and WHEN that observation and mental
leap took place ARE open to debate. You say that you feel that it was
based on observation not accident. I would agree, I wouldn't
underestimate our ancestors and didn't mean to imply that I did.
You wrote:
With all due respect to those who believe in the clay-lined basked
falling in the fire, it overlooks the obvious. Both the creation of a
woven basket, and the practical step of lining it with clay so as to
make it hold ground materials are acts requiring considerable creative
intellect and reasoning power. The discovery of fired clay in an
earthen hearth is much easier than that. Best wishes -
- Vince
[Earl Brunner] I think it's just the WAY you write things sometimes ....
:)
Earl Brunner on mon 2 feb 04
Hummmm, Native Americans were nomadic hunter gatherers, they made
pots....... Are you seriously suggesting that being nomadic would
prevent the development of pottery? Who said they took the pots with
them? Make the pot, fire the pot, use the pot, toss the pot, move on.
While I don't have a problem with your scenario, building a fire on top
of clay and having it become fired and hard, and making that jump to
clay pots is quite a large jump. Can you show where any of these fired
clay fire pits have been found? This whole thing calls for SO much
speculation on our part, we will probably never know. I'm sure though
that ALL of their experiences and observations with clay led to the
development of it's use.
In the realm of technological advancements, are you suggesting that
ceramics was invented before weaving and basketry? I have seen pots or
pot shards with basket texture on the outside of them. I thought that
was pretty well understood?
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Vince
Pitelka
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 7:03 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: first ceramics/fired
This has been discussed periodically on Clayart before, and there is
plenty
of info in the archives. The circumstances of the discovery of clay are
pretty obvious, despite some hairbrained theories to the contrary in the
minds of archaeologists and anthropologists independent of any ceramic
knowledge.
Paleolithic hunter-gatherers were nomadic, and traveled over fairly set
routes, dependent on the changes of the seasons and available food
sources.
It is logical that they would select their campsites carefully, and thus
would return to the same campsites again and again. Also, they would
select
their firepit carefully, and thus would use them repeatedly. A firepit
built up against a rock or earth back-wall reflects more heat towards
the
huddled group. If an earthen clay bank, the heat of the coals would of
course fire the clay.
Upon coming back to the same spot they would discover that the "fired"
hearth had become resistant to the effects of rain and runoff. Thus the
discovery of fired clay. They would already have been well aware of the
plastic qualities of clay, because it is so abundant, and so
irresistible.
So, even the primitive Neolithic intellect would put two-and-two
together,
and pretty soon you have fired figurines. It is likely that they made
other
fired forms, but it is doubtful that they made pots, because of course
ceramic pots are not very compatible with a nomadic hunter-gatherer
lifestyle.
With all due respect to those who believe in the clay-lined basked
falling
in the fire, it overlooks the obvious. Both the creation of a woven
basket,
and the practical step of lining it with clay so as to make it hold
ground
materials are acts requiring considerable creative intellect and
reasoning
power. The discovery of fired clay in an earthen hearth is much easier
than
that.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
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Bruce Girrell on mon 2 feb 04
Vince Pitelka wrote:
> With all due respect to those who believe in the clay-lined basked falling
> in the fire, it overlooks the obvious.
I don't understand why people feel compelled to fabricate such stories and
then try to pass it off as science. I remember one of my early science books
purporting that magnets (lodestone) were discovered by some primitive named
Magnus. I was in fourth grade and even then I knew that it had to be bogus.
Have you ever seen _Motel of the Mysteries_ by David Macaulay? Our
civilization gets wiped out (because the air pollution and junk mail reach a
critical density and suddenly collapse, killing almost everyone). Two
thousand year in the future an amateur archeologist unearths a motel from
the buried ruins of our time. The book details the finds of his excavation
including two bodies, one lying on a ceremonial bed facing an altar with
what appears to be a means of communicating with the gods and another lying
in a porcelain sarcophagus in the Inner Chamber. We are treated to
descriptions of such "wonders" as the Water Trumpet (shower head), the
Sacred Headband (inscribed "Sanitized for your protection"), the Sacred
Point (carefully folded within the Inner Chamber).
Bruce "and that's a Fact!" Girrell
Vince Pitelka on mon 2 feb 04
> Hummmm, Native Americans were nomadic hunter gatherers, they made
> pots....... Are you seriously suggesting that being nomadic would
> prevent the development of pottery? Who said they took the pots with
> them? Make the pot, fire the pot, use the pot, toss the pot, move on.
No, Earl, nomadic Native Americans did not make pots. Native Americans who
were settled in villages, like the Mississippean, Woodland, and Anasazi made
pots. And I never said a thing about making the jump from fired hearths to
fired pots. I said they made the jump to figurines, because it is
impossible to even imagine the possibility that they were NOT already making
all sorts of figurines and toys out of unfired clay just for the hell of it,
because it is so common, and because it is so irresistible. Tribal peoples
generally make the most of everything available in their environment.
It would be a VERY simple bit of imaginative conjecture that would inspire
them to put those formed clay items in the firepit. And yes, Earl, clay
shards and even complete figurines and charms have occasionally been found
in the excavations of Paleolithic firepits.
> In the realm of technological advancements, are you suggesting that
> ceramics was invented before weaving and basketry? I have seen pots or
> pot shards with basket texture on the outside of them. I thought that
> was pretty well understood?
EARL! Pay attention. Did I ever suggest anything like that at all? No, I
didn't. Weaving and basketry were of course of real value to Paleolithic
humans, in that the products were so portable. And OF COURSE you have seen
ancient pottery with basket textures on the outside of them, from cultures
all over the world, specifically BECAUSE basketry appeared during the
Paleolithic, while pottery vessels did not appear until the Neolithic, and
those early potters had a long tradition of baskets to immitate in the form
and surface of their pots. And what could be more irresistible than
pressing a piece of woven cord or basket material into the soft clay surface
of a freshly formed vessel?
Who are you disagreeing with here? None of your points have much at all to
do with anything I said. I certainly enjoy the dialogue, and I anxiously
welcome more information about all of this, but if you are going to deliver
a contradictory response (which is of course welcome!), then please at least
address the points I made.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
william schran on tue 3 feb 04
Vince wrote:>With all due respect to those who believe in the
clay-lined basked falling
in the fire, it overlooks the obvious. Both the creation of a woven basket,
and the practical step of lining it with clay so as to make it hold ground
materials are acts requiring considerable creative intellect and reasoning
power. The discovery of fired clay in an earthen hearth is much easier than
that.<
IMHO - It is quite possible that no one will ever know with absolute
certainty how our ancestors discovered the fact the some types of
earth would harden when exposed to heat and that plastic earth could
be molded into useful shapes.
Bill
Roger Korn on tue 3 feb 04
The earliest detailed figurative work I know is the Willendorf Venus
(22,000 - 24,000BCE). Though carved of limestone, rather than fired
ceramic, it suggests that the thought of sculpting in plastic clay
had probably occurred by then, and tossing a figure into the fire
may have had some significance as a ritualistic or symbolic act. The
observation that the (clay) soil around a firepit was durable
probably preceeded that, so we're talking WAY back for the first
fired ceramic creation, if these hypothetical breadcrumbs line up as
it seems to me they must.
Fun to think about,
Roger
Vince wrote:
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 21:02:37 -0600
From: Vince Pitelka
Subject: Re: first ceramics/fired
This has been discussed periodically on Clayart before, and there is plenty
of info in the archives. The circumstances of the discovery of clay are
pretty obvious, despite some hairbrained theories to the contrary in the
minds of archaeologists and anthropologists independent of any ceramic
knowledge.
Paleolithic hunter-gatherers were nomadic, and traveled over fairly set
routes, dependent on the changes of the seasons and available food sources.
It is logical that they would select their campsites carefully, and thus
would return to the same campsites again and again. Also, they would select
their firepit carefully, and thus would use them repeatedly. A firepit
built up against a rock or earth back-wall reflects more heat towards the
huddled group. If an earthen clay bank, the heat of the coals would of
course fire the clay.
Upon coming back to the same spot they would discover that the "fired"
hearth had become resistant to the effects of rain and runoff. Thus the
discovery of fired clay. They would already have been well aware of the
plastic qualities of clay, because it is so abundant, and so irresistible.
So, even the primitive Neolithic intellect would put two-and-two together,
and pretty soon you have fired figurines. It is likely that they made other
fired forms, but it is doubtful that they made pots, because of course
ceramic pots are not very compatible with a nomadic hunter-gatherer
lifestyle.
With all due respect to those who believe in the clay-lined basked falling
in the fire, it overlooks the obvious. Both the creation of a woven basket,
and the practical step of lining it with clay so as to make it hold ground
materials are acts requiring considerable creative intellect and reasoning
power. The discovery of fired clay in an earthen hearth is much easier than
that.
- Vince
--
McKay Creek Ceramics
In OR: PO Box 436
North Plains, OR 97133
503-647-5464
In AZ: PO Box 463
Rimrock, AZ 96335
928-567-5699
Lee Love on wed 4 feb 04
william schran wrote:
>
> IMHO - It is quite possible that no one will ever know with absolute
> certainty how our ancestors discovered the fact the some types of
> earth would harden when exposed to heat and that plastic earth could
> be molded into useful shapes.
Many of the earliest pots were cooking pots. Much of the Jomon
subsistance was fish and shellfish that were cooked in these pots.
The bottom of the pot is put n a hole in the ground and a fire is made
around the top. I'm wondering if maybe the first clay vessel was
formed to hold liquids and it was later discovered that the clay
hardened in the fire? These folks came to the Japanese islands to
escape the ice in the north. Could be that someone was melting snow at
the hearth in a clay container, left it in the fire and discovered that
it was hardened and reusable.
Lee In Mashiko
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