Lois Ruben Aronow on mon 16 feb 04
Who is having this debate? I hadn't heard of it before. It doesn't make
any sense.
Although I don't do an e-commerce thing from my web site, I have made
several sales from people emailing me to buy work. How can a gallery stop
you from doing this? With computers in people's lives, it is dead easy to
track down an artist - even if they don't have a web site at all - and deal
with them directly. Just knowing their name and city gives you a phone
number many times. Ring ring - can I buy a pot?
I have links to all my galleries on my site, which I think is generous of
me, considering most of them don't list ME on THEIR sites. Does a gallery
on the east coast really expect me to send a person from the west coast to
their gallery if I am contacted on line? And if you have more than one
gallery, how do you chose? That's just dopey.
In fact, the opposite rings true for me. I have gotten inquiries from
galleries (and stores) based on them seeing my web site.
ccpottery@BELLSOUTH.NET on mon 16 feb 04
I am posting this for the information of potters who
wish to sell retail from their websites and wholesale
to galleries.
There is a huge debate going on now on whether
artists should be competing with their galleries online.
Some galleries are flat out refusing to buy from any
artists who sell retail online. You will not know this is
the reason since they will 'google' you to find out and
then just not order from you.
They are tired of providing a real environment to
showcase artists work and then having people go home
and order online. They are afraid they will disappear
just like the Mom and Pop bookstores have.
They also do not like artists to list all the galleries
where their work is available since this leads to more
online browsing for the cheapest price.
Obviously, someone paying rent in downtown San
Francisco cannot price the same way someone in
a low rent district can.
This argument is hot right now and the debates will
go on for some time. This new technology is shaking
things up since this is the first time an artist can have
good access to customers world wide.
It is not in our best interests to lose good galleries of
American Craft.
Artists also need to be able to sell their work in different
venues to survive financially.
There has to be a meeting place somewhere between the
two arguments and hopefully the current debates will
result in some new 'rules'.
Just be aware that gallery owners know how to use
search engines so be upfront about where you are selling.
Chris Campbell - in North Carolina - bringing you news from
the world of business and commerce!
Lois Ruben Aronow on tue 17 feb 04
> It makes a lot of sense on all sides and many artists who are
> committed to wholesale have converted their sites into
> informational and referral venues. Any requests for private
> sales are referred to a gallery.
Perhaps this is why I am lost on this one - I don't do mass wholesale. Some
galleries buy my work wholesale; others I consign to. I chose my galleries
carefully rather than going for quantity, and this seems to work well for
everyone right now. Not only has no one ever asked me to stop doing craft
shows, but they sometimes buy advertising at the shows I do.
So I'm confused, I guess, because I figure it is MY work and I can sell it
where and how I want, within reason, without stepping on anyone's toes and
with respect to the territory my galleries are in.
Shouldn't the gallery/artist relationship be mutually beneficial?
Kathy Forer on tue 17 feb 04
On Feb 17, 2004, at 1:06 PM, ccpottery@BELLSOUTH.NET wrote:
> There is no simple answer and in my opinion the question will
> be moot within two or three years. The internet is growing and
> evolving so rapidly we will be faced with even more complex
> questions before we can answer this one.
One way around this is to "assign" only specific works to a gallery, a
handful or more. The rest of your work will still be available directly
through you, and the gallery will highlight and sell only those chosen
works.
Kathy
Locust
David Hendley on tue 17 feb 04
Craft galleries are fighting a losing battle if they try to insist that
anything they sell is not available online from the maker.
Apply the same line of reasoning to another product and you
will realize how unreasonable it is. Can you imagine a bookstore
not stocking a book because it is available from amazon.com?
In contrast to businesses that sell other types of products, galleries
do provide a great service to shoppers: being able to see and
hold a handmade object. The internet will never be able to
compete with this in-the-flesh opportunity.
If there are any "rules" that should be followed, common sense
should dictate to potters that they not undercut their other sales
outlets on price. If similar pieces sell for similar prices in a store and
from a website, there is no reason to order from the website if a
customer is near a store. Buying from the website involves paying
shipping charges, waiting to receive the package, and not seeing
the actual object until it arrives. But, it also opens up the opportunity
for the potter to reach previously unreachable customers.
Depending on your perspective, fortunately or unfortunately, the
internet has changed everything. Individual potters are on the
fortunate end of the equation. It will only continue to make things
harder for small shops with high overhead selling specialized items.
David Hendley
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
> There is a huge debate going on now on whether
> artists should be competing with their galleries online.
>
> Some galleries are flat out refusing to buy from any
> artists who sell retail online. You will not know this is
> the reason since they will 'google' you to find out and
> then just not order from you.
>
> They are tired of providing a real environment to
> showcase artists work and then having people go home
> and order online. They are afraid they will disappear
> just like the Mom and Pop bookstores have.
Antoinette Badenhorst on tue 17 feb 04
Chris, it sounds to me like just the kind of elimination process that we
need. For too long galleries ruled the art world. I predict that to
balance the scale, will become an art by itself in future. The public
out there will have to learn to judge good work by looking at internet
images, or buy a dummy. At least galleries have done that elimination
process for uneducated buyers in the past.
On the other hand, I become more and more aware of galleries using the
new technology to their advantage. A good example is working with
digital images. That does not only make detailed images more available,
but also make the image process much cheaper for the artist.
Regards.
Antoinette Badenhorst
105 Westwood Circle
Saltillo MS
38866
662 869 1651
www.clayandcanvas.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of
ccpottery@BELLSOUTH.NET
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 9:18 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Retail Website Sales Debate : FYI
I am posting this for the information of potters who
wish to sell retail from their websites and wholesale
to galleries.
There is a huge debate going on now on whether
artists should be competing with their galleries online.
Some galleries are flat out refusing to buy from any
artists who sell retail online. You will not know this is
the reason since they will 'google' you to find out and
then just not order from you.
They are tired of providing a real environment to
showcase artists work and then having people go home
and order online. They are afraid they will disappear
just like the Mom and Pop bookstores have.
They also do not like artists to list all the galleries
where their work is available since this leads to more
online browsing for the cheapest price.
Obviously, someone paying rent in downtown San
Francisco cannot price the same way someone in
a low rent district can.
This argument is hot right now and the debates will
go on for some time. This new technology is shaking
things up since this is the first time an artist can have
good access to customers world wide.
It is not in our best interests to lose good galleries of
American Craft.
Artists also need to be able to sell their work in different
venues to survive financially.
There has to be a meeting place somewhere between the
two arguments and hopefully the current debates will
result in some new 'rules'.
Just be aware that gallery owners know how to use
search engines so be upfront about where you are selling.
Chris Campbell - in North Carolina - bringing you news from
the world of business and commerce!
________________________________________________________________________
______
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
ccpottery@BELLSOUTH.NET on tue 17 feb 04
Lois asked :
'Who is having this debate? I hadn't heard of it before.
It doesn't make any sense.'
This debate has been going on in most of the business related
craft forums on line for some time now.
It makes a lot of sense on all sides and many artists who are
committed to wholesale have converted their sites into informational
and referral venues. Any requests for private sales are referred
to a gallery.
The crux of the debate from the artists side is who gets to dictate
where they can sell their work. If they choose to do craft fairs and
online sales no one can stop them. No one is trying to.
The crux of the galleries side is they do not want to compete
with their own artists.
They do not exist simply to provide a venue for viewing work
prior to purchasing on line from the artist or a gallery
in another state.
There is no simple answer and in my opinion the question will
be moot within two or three years. The internet is growing and
evolving so rapidly we will be faced with even more complex
questions before we can answer this one.
Chris Campbell - in North Carolina - another snowy day here!! yuck!!
Chris Campbell Pottery, llc
9417 Koupela Drive
Raleigh, NC 27615
1-800-652-1008
FAX : 919-676-2062
E Mail : chris@ccpottery.com
Website : www.ccpottery.com
Wholesale : www.wholesalecrafts.com
Lois Ruben Aronow on wed 18 feb 04
I totally agree with you on this one, David. And I like your Amazon
analogy. I don't see how anyone who buys work at wholesale shows can expect
the artist NOT to sell their work elsewhere, internet or otherwise.
I don't see galleries going out of business - they serve a significant
purpose on many levels, both to the consumer and to the artist. There are
differences between galleries and stores. They both have a place, but there
are lots of variables between the 2.
There are so many contradictions. It is NOT unreasonable for a gallery to
ask for exclusivity from an artist in their particular geographic area. I
think this applies only to handmade work, though, and also only to
galleries, not stores.
There are god knows how many "craft gallery"/design stores in my area, for
example, who are carrying the same Jonathan
Adler/KleinReid/name-your-mass-produced/mass wholesale-artist work alongside
truly handmade.
I am always happy to steer a customer to a gallery - less work for me, and
it promotes a long-term relationship between me and the gallery. Hey, if
the gallery is selling work, they are going to keep me as an artist.
I admit to not being knowledgeable about how the wholesale world works in
this case. Seems to me more like they buy/you sell/end of story. Artists
who don't keep their prices consistent are the bad guys here. There is
nothing to stop a person from calling 411, getting the artist phone #, and
calling to buy work. No internet involved - how very quaint. If a gallery
is threatened by an artist selling a piece of work over the internet, then
they have other issues in their own business to deal with.
Helen Bates on wed 18 feb 04
Hi,
For background on the retail website sales debate, the topic is addressed
here:
"Cyber-Competition for Craft Sales" by Grace Butland, market coordinator
for the Nova Scotia Designer Crafts Council
The Crafts Report : Crafts Retailer
Here's another look at the issue:
"Art and the Internet" by Dana Altman
artphoto - contemporary art magazine
Helen
--
===========================================================
Helen Bates - mailto:nell@cogeco.ca, nelbanell@yahoo.ca
Web - http://www.geocities.com/nelbanell/
PMI Online - http://www.potterymaking.org/pmionline.html
Clayarters' Urls - http://amsterlaw.com/clayart.html
Surfing Posts - http://amsterlaw.com/nell.html
===========================================================
Hendrix, Taylor J. on wed 18 feb 04
Wait, wait, wait a second, Professor Hendley. I have a comment.
Amazon.com doesn't 'make' the books. In the pottery world they would be
another gallery (a huge chain gallery! Do those exist?) Anyhoo, what
might be a better analogy would be if the publisher (as close as I can
get to the 'potter') sold, and they do, books online and sold to small
local bookstores. Now what are the rules of this type of arrangement?
Lili knows a bit about the publishing biz as well as the potting biz.
So, Lili are we looking at apples and bananas here?
I still think that selling out the Ol' Farmhouse door (or webpage) is
still the best ticket, professor.
Taylor, in Waco
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of David
Hendley
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 10:11 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Retail Website Sales Debate : FYI
Craft galleries are fighting a losing battle if they try to insist that
anything they sell is not available online from the maker.
Apply the same line of reasoning to another product and you
will realize how unreasonable it is. Can you imagine a bookstore
not stocking a book because it is available from amazon.com?
...
David Hendley on thu 19 feb 04
Dear Chris, in spite of the stupid things some have written about
selling their work for less than it sells for in galleries, please don't
get your dander up.
The plain, unemotional fact is, as I wrote before, the Internet
has changed everything.
The business of selling crafts has also changed. I can remember
when craft fairs were the hot venue. Later lots of galleries started
opening and taking business from the fairs. Now, as the market
has matured, there are many potters who have set up their
own on-premises selling galleries and don't need outside sales
agents (the best deal for potters, in my opinion).
A craft gallery staffed with capable and caring salespeople is an
expensive operation. "Full-service" if you please.
If there are not enough customers who want to pay the full-service
price, well then, the craft gallery will go the same way as the
full-service gas station.
Take a look around the urban landscape and you will see the
same consolidation everywhere. Independent bookstores are
gone, chain restaurants rule, and Home Depot has knocked
out the old hardware store. Of course I would rather shop
and buy from a place with knowledgeable salespeople, but
people vote with their dollars and usually the most efficient
(read cheapest) retailer wins.
Just today, I bought new tires for my car. As silly as it sounds,
I bought them on the Internet (http://www.tirerack.com) and
had them shipped to a local tire store for installation. I went by
the local store to ask them about it before I ordered, because
the whole idea really doesn't make sense to me, but they said
they do it all the time. Besides not have the tires I wanted, they
said if they ordered them their price would be more than what
I paid!
So, craft gallery owners should not feel like the Lone Ranger.
If they cannot efficiently sell their product someone is going
to take their business away. If their expenses are so high that
they cannot make a profit with a standard 100% markup, we
as wholesalers have no obligation to sell our pottery to them
for less so they can stay open, or raise our retail prices to match.
If they don't have the customer base, maybe it's time they close.
This sounds somewhat adversarial, which is not intended. I like
having galleries around, but that's just the way it is. Times change.
Business is business.
Also, hangtags or not, with the Internet anyone can find just
about anyone in no time, if their intention is to buy pottery
directly from the maker. If you turn over one of my mugs you
will see "Old Farmhouse Pottery", "Maydelle, Texas", and
"David Hendley". Any one of those phrases typed in Google
will instantly direct you to my website.
David Hendley
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
Rikki Gill on thu 19 feb 04
My experience with the mom and pop versus Amazon, is the the mom and pop
goes out of buisness.
From Rikki mourning the dissappearance of Avenue Books in Berkeley.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lois Ruben Aronow"
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 5:15 AM
Subject: Re: Retail Website Sales Debate : FYI
> > Amazon.com doesn't 'make' the books. In the pottery world
> > they would be another gallery (a huge chain gallery! Do
> > those exist?)
>
> Yes, they do.
>
> Anyhoo, what might be a better analogy would
> > be if the publisher (as close as I can get to the 'potter')
> > sold, and they do, books online and sold to small local
> > bookstores. Now what are the rules of this type of arrangement?
>
> Amazon carries books buy small publishers and self publishers, as do small
> bookstores. I have such books directly from the publisher (on-line) as
well
> as my local mom & pop bookstore, Amazon, and the health food store. I
don't
> know what the rules are, but the mom & pop doesn't appear to be bothered
by
> the fact that you can buy the book directly from the publisher, or even
down
> the block.
>
> Just my experience.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
Lee Love on thu 19 feb 04
This has got to be very strange behavior on the part of the gallery.
They are living in the past. Maybe we should keep a list of galleries
that exhibit these behaviors and refuse to deal with them. The web
has enabled the individual to market on his own.
I think the only thing you should do is not discount fully to
the wholesale price of the gallery. A friend gave me the guildline of
offering your retail prices at no lower than half the difference between
retail and wholesale. For instance, if your gallery gets 40%, don't
discount your retail more than 20%.
But on the web, it makes sense to charge the full retail price.
There is no way the galleries will have any trouble with this.
Lee In Mashiko
Lois Ruben Aronow on thu 19 feb 04
> Amazon.com doesn't 'make' the books. In the pottery world
> they would be another gallery (a huge chain gallery! Do
> those exist?)
Yes, they do.
Anyhoo, what might be a better analogy would
> be if the publisher (as close as I can get to the 'potter')
> sold, and they do, books online and sold to small local
> bookstores. Now what are the rules of this type of arrangement?
Amazon carries books buy small publishers and self publishers, as do small
bookstores. I have such books directly from the publisher (on-line) as well
as my local mom & pop bookstore, Amazon, and the health food store. I don't
know what the rules are, but the mom & pop doesn't appear to be bothered by
the fact that you can buy the book directly from the publisher, or even down
the block.
Just my experience.
ccpottery@BELLSOUTH.NET on fri 20 feb 04
David and all ...
Yes, I know how all the family stores
are disappearing ... makes me feel as
though I was born in the wrong century.
I love to spend an afternoon in a small
bookstore ... or a great craft gallery. It is
refreshing to my spirits.
Somehow, the bright lights and coffee
counters of the big stores just don't cut it.
... but then I also love to visit old, old
cemeteries ... which is probably wierdly
appropriate.
Chris Campbell - in North Carolina - you can help your
galleries now, or mourn their loss when they are gone.
Once again, our choice.
Chris Campbell Pottery, llc
9417 Koupela Drive
Raleigh, NC 27615
1-800-652-1008
FAX : 919-676-2062
E Mail : chris@ccpottery.com
Website : www.ccpottery.com
Wholesale : www.wholesalecrafts.com
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