ccpottery@BELLSOUTH.NET on wed 18 feb 04
There have some postings that I would like
to reply to since they illustrate the problems
between artists and galleries very well.
One said ....
'A friend gave me the guildline of offering your retail prices
at no lower than half the difference between retail and
wholesale. For instance, if your gallery gets 40%, don't
discount your retail more than 20%.'
I simply cannot understand why any artist would insist
their work is worth less than the gallery is asking!!
Every time you do this you undermine them and
yourself.
You are telling your customer your work is
overpriced.
You are disrespecting your gallery and its employees
by making them look like fools for charging a price
you do not even think is worthwhile.
..... also .....
'But on the web, it makes sense to charge the full retail price.
There is no way the galleries will have any trouble with this.'
Here is the trouble with that. They might be marking your work
up by 2, or by 2.5 or by 2.8 or by 3 depending on their location
and their expenses to keep the lights on. So what retail price
are you talking about?
..... also ....
'And I like your Amazon analogy. '
How about mine .... how many interesting independent bookstores
do you have in your town? We only have one left where the
staff knows the difference between Dr. Seuss and medicine.
.... also .....
'I don't see galleries going out of business '
Well take a closer look. Our own Janet at the Chapel of Art is
out of business. I personally know of at least 5 great galleries
that have gone under.
..... also .....
'There is nothing to stop a person from calling 411, getting the
artist phone #, and calling to buy work.
No internet involved - how very quaint'
That is why galleries do not allow tags with any personal
contact information whatsoever. Just your business name
or your hang tag gets put in the trash. Most wholesale
artists have at least two or three sets of tags and
business cards.
So, you can see the problem has no simple answers.
It is not an easy case of the poor old gallery being threatened
by starving artists.
It is a case of wanting to be able to walk into a gallery
where informed people can tell me about interesting
artwork. I want to touch it and not just imagine it from
an image on the web.
If we keep messing around, they will be gone.
Chris Campbell - in North Carolina - with my dander up ...
what is a dander anyhow?
Chris Campbell Pottery, llc
9417 Koupela Drive
Raleigh, NC 27615
1-800-652-1008
FAX : 919-676-2062
E Mail : chris@ccpottery.com
Website : www.ccpottery.com
Wholesale : www.wholesalecrafts.com
Antoinette Badenhorst on thu 19 feb 04
Chris, you made some very valid points. Many of those are sentimental;
others carry heavy weight when it comes to educating the public.
I disagree with galleries that shift the prices according to their
location and overheads. I believe that the artist should set the retail
price and that is what the work should sell for at all times. As much as
you say that artists undermine themselves, just as much I believe by
shifting the prices in galleries, artists get a false value of what
their work is worth. Galleries should manage their income on a different
level. If my work is too cheap to make a profit from, they should fill
the gaps with other artists or sell enough of my work to make the
profit. I think it is very wrong to push prices artificially.
Another problem that I have with galleries is the fact that some of them
place restrictions on artists that are often unreasonable (like they
restrict an artist from a too large area) and then they end up not
selling enough of the artist's work.
I love small, cozy bookstores, wonderful galleries and everything else
that makes a culture rich, but as an artist, that is worth nothing if I
can not enjoy it, due to a lack of income.
My biggest concern with internet sales is quality control. As it is,
every Tom, Dick and Harry that had a 6 weeks course somewhere with
someone that had a 6 weeks course with someone else, sell pots like
crazy to a public that had no arts appreciation classes. Technical
values and real art values goes down the drain. At least that is
something that some (and I stress some) galleries eliminated in the
past. That is just as undermining to the real artist out there, as
undermining their prices.=20
I do not know the answer to this dilemma, but I do now this....artists
have better tools in their hands to work with and galleries will have to
get those tools and start working with, instead of against the artist.
Please see my next posting on quality control.
Antoinette Badenhorst
105 Westwood Circle
Saltillo MS
38866
662 869 1651
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of
ccpottery@BELLSOUTH.NET
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 4:39 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Retail Website Sales Debate : FYI-long
There have some postings that I would like
to reply to since they illustrate the problems
between artists and galleries very well.
One said ....
'A friend gave me the guildline of offering your retail prices
at no lower than half the difference between retail and
wholesale. For instance, if your gallery gets 40%, don't
discount your retail more than 20%.'
I simply cannot understand why any artist would insist
their work is worth less than the gallery is asking!!
Every time you do this you undermine them and
yourself.
You are telling your customer your work is
overpriced.
You are disrespecting your gallery and its employees
by making them look like fools for charging a price
you do not even think is worthwhile.
..... also .....
'But on the web, it makes sense to charge the full retail price.
There is no way the galleries will have any trouble with this.'
Here is the trouble with that. They might be marking your work
up by 2, or by 2.5 or by 2.8 or by 3 depending on their location
and their expenses to keep the lights on. So what retail price
are you talking about?
..... also ....
'And I like your Amazon analogy. '
How about mine .... how many interesting independent bookstores
do you have in your town? We only have one left where the
staff knows the difference between Dr. Seuss and medicine.
.... also .....
'I don't see galleries going out of business '
Well take a closer look. Our own Janet at the Chapel of Art is
out of business. I personally know of at least 5 great galleries
that have gone under.
..... also .....
'There is nothing to stop a person from calling 411, getting the
artist phone #, and calling to buy work.
No internet involved - how very quaint'
That is why galleries do not allow tags with any personal
contact information whatsoever. Just your business name
or your hang tag gets put in the trash. Most wholesale
artists have at least two or three sets of tags and
business cards.
So, you can see the problem has no simple answers.
It is not an easy case of the poor old gallery being threatened
by starving artists.
It is a case of wanting to be able to walk into a gallery
where informed people can tell me about interesting
artwork. I want to touch it and not just imagine it from
an image on the web.
If we keep messing around, they will be gone.
Chris Campbell - in North Carolina - with my dander up ...
what is a dander anyhow?
Chris Campbell Pottery, llc
9417 Koupela Drive
Raleigh, NC 27615
1-800-652-1008
FAX : 919-676-2062
E Mail : chris@ccpottery.com
Website : www.ccpottery.com
Wholesale : www.wholesalecrafts.com
________________________________________________________________________
______
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
=01=01
John Rodgers on sat 21 feb 04
This whole thing is about competition in the marketplace and making a
living at what we love to do.
We each have to define our own markets, and once done, we have to step
to the bar to meet the competition within that market. And
unfortunately, this is an area where one cannot be "Mr. Niceguy!" To be
that, it won't be long and you will be out of business, or at least
unable to compete sufficiently to stay afloat making just clayart. You
will find yourself having to supplement your income by doing something
other than clay art or pottery. And the minute you begin to give over
your precious clay art work time to doing another income producing type
of work you have lost it, except for being a hobby potter person.
To stay in the game, you have to work smart, you must develop a business
sense, an understanding of business, sales and marketing. And you must
put that knowledge to work for you. Every waking moment, either
consciously or unconsciously must be focused on the production,
marketing and sales. If this is not done, you will fail as a true full
time professional in the business of clay art.
One must take advantage of every opportunity to promote ones art/craft.
And, right at the top of the list, one must apply the principle of
"Technology for Competitive Advantage". If it is not done, others who
are willing to do so, will overtake you and trample you in the dust as
they stampede to the bank with the returns on their efforts.
The internet and the WEB have made it possible to do marketing and sales
world wide, not just in ones own neighborhood. The opportunity here is
incredible. I can advertise my work in Canada, Australia, Argentina, and
Italy as easily as I can my neighbor across the street. The modern
computer, combined with the capabilities of the internet open the doors
of opportunity like never before. The possibilities are endless.
If one is concerned about conflicts with galleries, etc., don't be.
Internet and local storefront sales are essentially different. There may
come a time when the galleries get smart enough to make the bulk of
their business on-line, but my experience has been that in most
galleries customers are fairly local, and like to come in and see first
hand and touch and fondle that which they purchase. Not always true, but
largely so.
To determine the value of a gallery in ones marketing scheme, the
principle of "Technology for Competitive Advantage" can be applied. It
is done by using one's computer to run a spreadsheet analysis of
"Percentage of Contribution" by each source from which you get money
from sales. One looks at the percentage of income contribution each
customer makes to ones income stream, and if that percentage doesn't
meet your standard, then drop them. They simply are not worth the hassle
it takes to keep them within the fold. Your time and effort could be
better spent elsewhere on other projects.
In my own clay art business, I would look at monthly sales, and the
contribution of each product to the bottom line. If the item didn't
contribute at least 1% I dropped it from production...... no exceptions.
If it contributed between 1% and 3% then I looked at it closely, and may
drop it .... with one exception. If the item was a good loss leader ,
I may keep the item, even though it's contribution was below 3%.
Anything above 3% was a keeper. This methodology works well whether you
are making and selling $1 items or $100 items. When one does an
analysis of this type, it is shown very clearly that the old "80-20"
rule really works. 80% of your sales will be low ticket items, 20% of
your sales wilt be your high ticket items. You will have to bust your
butt to produce all those low ticket items - those bread and butter
items - that produce your 80% of income. They are the hard work. But
then you can play and exercise the creative juices when you produce
the 20% items.
No gallery, if they find your work doesn't produce for them, is going to
keep your work around very long. They will do for themselves exactly
what I have described here in this post. They will analyze the numbers,
and they will separate the chaff form the wheat, and if you aren't in
the wheat, you are history. Oh, they may keep your stuff there for a
while. After all, if you have consigned it, they have minimal
responsibility. It can sit there until it crumbles with age. Some
responsibility, but minimal. But believe me, they will cut your heart
out if there is no advantage to having you there. From a business
perspective they really cannot afford to do otherwise. It is a matter of
survival.
So, look to oneself, watch out for oneself, and don't get to concerned
about the galleries. Keep in mind they are people too, and will look
after themselves before they look after you. This is one of the reasons
that it's so difficult to get your stuff back if at all, when a gallery
folds suddenly and disappears in the middle of the night. The
owners/operators of the gallery were looking after themselves first, and
most likely taking what money there was and using it to try and keep the
doors open instead of paying off those to whom the money was owed. I
have been on the receiving end of this more than once. So I know first
hand. That has been a hard lesson for me to learn. The other party will
ALWAYS put their own interest first, where business is concerned. I'm
not meaning to be cynical here, it's just that "That's the way it is!!!"
As for pricing .... My pricing is always the same, where ever my work is
shown. I never tag anything with a discount price. After all, would you
want to discount your paycheck from your boss???? If a bonifide store
owner/buyer inquires, they are told there is a business discount for
stores and there is a minimum order of $500. That usually clears out the
chaff from the wheat in a hurry. Back before I learned my lessons store
owners would take advantage and buy a single piece at a discounted price
using the ruse of "I need a sample, and I'll buy more if everyone at the
store likes it!". Yeah, right, Uh-huh!! No more. Lessons learned.
Also, for any order outside of current stock on hand - 50% deposit, with
balance on delivery. This will cover materials and some miscellaneous
stuff if they default.
Well, my $0.02 this morning.
Regards,
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
ccpottery@BELLSOUTH.NET wrote:
>There have some postings that I would like
> to reply to since they illustrate the problems
> between artists and galleries very well.
>
>One said ....
>
>'A friend gave me the guildline of offering your retail prices
>at no lower than half the difference between retail and
>wholesale. For instance, if your gallery gets 40%, don't
>discount your retail more than 20%.'
>
>
>I simply cannot understand why any artist would insist
>their work is worth less than the gallery is asking!!
>
>Every time you do this you undermine them and
>yourself.
>
>You are telling your customer your work is
>overpriced.
>
>You are disrespecting your gallery and its employees
>by making them look like fools for charging a price
>you do not even think is worthwhile.
>
>..... also .....
>
>'But on the web, it makes sense to charge the full retail price.
>There is no way the galleries will have any trouble with this.'
>
>
>Here is the trouble with that. They might be marking your work
>up by 2, or by 2.5 or by 2.8 or by 3 depending on their location
>and their expenses to keep the lights on. So what retail price
>are you talking about?
>
>..... also ....
>
>'And I like your Amazon analogy. '
>
>How about mine .... how many interesting independent bookstores
>do you have in your town? We only have one left where the
>staff knows the difference between Dr. Seuss and medicine.
>
>.... also .....
>
>'I don't see galleries going out of business '
>
>Well take a closer look. Our own Janet at the Chapel of Art is
>out of business. I personally know of at least 5 great galleries
>that have gone under.
>
>..... also .....
>
>'There is nothing to stop a person from calling 411, getting the
>artist phone #, and calling to buy work.
>No internet involved - how very quaint'
>
>That is why galleries do not allow tags with any personal
>contact information whatsoever. Just your business name
>or your hang tag gets put in the trash. Most wholesale
>artists have at least two or three sets of tags and
>business cards.
>
>
>So, you can see the problem has no simple answers.
>
>It is not an easy case of the poor old gallery being threatened
>by starving artists.
>
>It is a case of wanting to be able to walk into a gallery
>where informed people can tell me about interesting
>artwork. I want to touch it and not just imagine it from
>an image on the web.
>
>If we keep messing around, they will be gone.
>
>Chris Campbell - in North Carolina - with my dander up ...
>what is a dander anyhow?
>
>
>
>
>Chris Campbell Pottery, llc
>9417 Koupela Drive
>Raleigh, NC 27615
>1-800-652-1008
>FAX : 919-676-2062
>E Mail : chris@ccpottery.com
>Website : www.ccpottery.com
>Wholesale : www.wholesalecrafts.com
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>
>
Antoinette Badenhorst on sat 21 feb 04
Very well said and analyzed John!!
Antoinette Badenhorst
105 Westwood Circle
Saltillo MS
38866
662 869 1651
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of John
Rodgers
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 9:07 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Retail Website Sales Debate : FYI-long
This whole thing is about competition in the marketplace and making a
living at what we love to do.
We each have to define our own markets, and once done, we have to step
to the bar to meet the competition within that market. And
unfortunately, this is an area where one cannot be "Mr. Niceguy!" To be
that, it won't be long and you will be out of business, or at least
unable to compete sufficiently to stay afloat making just clayart. You
will find yourself having to supplement your income by doing something
other than clay art or pottery. And the minute you begin to give over
your precious clay art work time to doing another income producing type
of work you have lost it, except for being a hobby potter person.
To stay in the game, you have to work smart, you must develop a business
sense, an understanding of business, sales and marketing. And you must
put that knowledge to work for you. Every waking moment, either
consciously or unconsciously must be focused on the production,
marketing and sales. If this is not done, you will fail as a true full
time professional in the business of clay art.
One must take advantage of every opportunity to promote ones art/craft.
And, right at the top of the list, one must apply the principle of
"Technology for Competitive Advantage". If it is not done, others who
are willing to do so, will overtake you and trample you in the dust as
they stampede to the bank with the returns on their efforts.
The internet and the WEB have made it possible to do marketing and sales
world wide, not just in ones own neighborhood. The opportunity here is
incredible. I can advertise my work in Canada, Australia, Argentina, and
Italy as easily as I can my neighbor across the street. The modern
computer, combined with the capabilities of the internet open the doors
of opportunity like never before. The possibilities are endless.
If one is concerned about conflicts with galleries, etc., don't be.
Internet and local storefront sales are essentially different. There may
come a time when the galleries get smart enough to make the bulk of
their business on-line, but my experience has been that in most
galleries customers are fairly local, and like to come in and see first
hand and touch and fondle that which they purchase. Not always true, but
largely so.
To determine the value of a gallery in ones marketing scheme, the
principle of "Technology for Competitive Advantage" can be applied. It
is done by using one's computer to run a spreadsheet analysis of
"Percentage of Contribution" by each source from which you get money
from sales. One looks at the percentage of income contribution each
customer makes to ones income stream, and if that percentage doesn't
meet your standard, then drop them. They simply are not worth the hassle
it takes to keep them within the fold. Your time and effort could be
better spent elsewhere on other projects.
In my own clay art business, I would look at monthly sales, and the
contribution of each product to the bottom line. If the item didn't
contribute at least 1% I dropped it from production...... no exceptions.
If it contributed between 1% and 3% then I looked at it closely, and may
drop it .... with one exception. If the item was a good loss leader ,
I may keep the item, even though it's contribution was below 3%.
Anything above 3% was a keeper. This methodology works well whether you
are making and selling $1 items or $100 items. When one does an
analysis of this type, it is shown very clearly that the old "80-20"
rule really works. 80% of your sales will be low ticket items, 20% of
your sales wilt be your high ticket items. You will have to bust your
butt to produce all those low ticket items - those bread and butter
items - that produce your 80% of income. They are the hard work. But
then you can play and exercise the creative juices when you produce
the 20% items.
No gallery, if they find your work doesn't produce for them, is going to
keep your work around very long. They will do for themselves exactly
what I have described here in this post. They will analyze the numbers,
and they will separate the chaff form the wheat, and if you aren't in
the wheat, you are history. Oh, they may keep your stuff there for a
while. After all, if you have consigned it, they have minimal
responsibility. It can sit there until it crumbles with age. Some
responsibility, but minimal. But believe me, they will cut your heart
out if there is no advantage to having you there. From a business
perspective they really cannot afford to do otherwise. It is a matter of
survival.
So, look to oneself, watch out for oneself, and don't get to concerned
about the galleries. Keep in mind they are people too, and will look
after themselves before they look after you. This is one of the reasons
that it's so difficult to get your stuff back if at all, when a gallery
folds suddenly and disappears in the middle of the night. The
owners/operators of the gallery were looking after themselves first, and
most likely taking what money there was and using it to try and keep the
doors open instead of paying off those to whom the money was owed. I
have been on the receiving end of this more than once. So I know first
hand. That has been a hard lesson for me to learn. The other party will
ALWAYS put their own interest first, where business is concerned. I'm
not meaning to be cynical here, it's just that "That's the way it is!!!"
As for pricing .... My pricing is always the same, where ever my work is
shown. I never tag anything with a discount price. After all, would you
want to discount your paycheck from your boss???? If a bonifide store
owner/buyer inquires, they are told there is a business discount for
stores and there is a minimum order of $500. That usually clears out the
chaff from the wheat in a hurry. Back before I learned my lessons store
owners would take advantage and buy a single piece at a discounted price
using the ruse of "I need a sample, and I'll buy more if everyone at the
store likes it!". Yeah, right, Uh-huh!! No more. Lessons learned.
Also, for any order outside of current stock on hand - 50% deposit, with
balance on delivery. This will cover materials and some miscellaneous
stuff if they default.
Well, my $0.02 this morning.
Regards,
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
ccpottery@BELLSOUTH.NET wrote:
>There have some postings that I would like
> to reply to since they illustrate the problems
> between artists and galleries very well.
>
>One said ....
>
>'A friend gave me the guildline of offering your retail prices
>at no lower than half the difference between retail and
>wholesale. For instance, if your gallery gets 40%, don't
>discount your retail more than 20%.'
>
>
>I simply cannot understand why any artist would insist
>their work is worth less than the gallery is asking!!
>
>Every time you do this you undermine them and
>yourself.
>
>You are telling your customer your work is
>overpriced.
>
>You are disrespecting your gallery and its employees
>by making them look like fools for charging a price
>you do not even think is worthwhile.
>
>..... also .....
>
>'But on the web, it makes sense to charge the full retail price.
>There is no way the galleries will have any trouble with this.'
>
>
>Here is the trouble with that. They might be marking your work
>up by 2, or by 2.5 or by 2.8 or by 3 depending on their location
>and their expenses to keep the lights on. So what retail price
>are you talking about?
>
>..... also ....
>
>'And I like your Amazon analogy. '
>
>How about mine .... how many interesting independent bookstores
>do you have in your town? We only have one left where the
>staff knows the difference between Dr. Seuss and medicine.
>
>.... also .....
>
>'I don't see galleries going out of business '
>
>Well take a closer look. Our own Janet at the Chapel of Art is
>out of business. I personally know of at least 5 great galleries
>that have gone under.
>
>..... also .....
>
>'There is nothing to stop a person from calling 411, getting the
>artist phone #, and calling to buy work.
>No internet involved - how very quaint'
>
>That is why galleries do not allow tags with any personal
>contact information whatsoever. Just your business name
>or your hang tag gets put in the trash. Most wholesale
>artists have at least two or three sets of tags and
>business cards.
>
>
>So, you can see the problem has no simple answers.
>
>It is not an easy case of the poor old gallery being threatened
>by starving artists.
>
>It is a case of wanting to be able to walk into a gallery
>where informed people can tell me about interesting
>artwork. I want to touch it and not just imagine it from
>an image on the web.
>
>If we keep messing around, they will be gone.
>
>Chris Campbell - in North Carolina - with my dander up ...
>what is a dander anyhow?
>
>
>
>
>Chris Campbell Pottery, llc
>9417 Koupela Drive
>Raleigh, NC 27615
>1-800-652-1008
>FAX : 919-676-2062
>E Mail : chris@ccpottery.com
>Website : www.ccpottery.com
>Wholesale : www.wholesalecrafts.com
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
_______
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
______
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
| |
|
