Dave Finkelnburg on thu 11 mar 04
I had the opportunity to talk to clay art students at the College of
Southern Idaho last Friday, and one of them is asking for information on the
emissions from their salt kiln. I have done an archive search and online
search and find a lot of opinion (I think, I feel, It's logical that...) but
no authoritative measurements of salt kiln emissions. Does anyone know of
such measurements? Given the importance of salt kilns commercially and in
studios, I am sure such data exists. If you have any suggestions about
where I might find facts about the quantity and composition of emissions
from a salt kiln, would you please let me know? Thanks!
Dave Finkelnburg
Chris Rupp on thu 11 mar 04
Check out Phil Rogers book on Salt Firing. It has a whole chapter dedicated
to this topic. Also, check the Clayart archives from what I remember, there
is a lot about this topic there too.
Chris
Sunny Santa Barbara
>From: Dave Finkelnburg
>Reply-To: Clayart
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Salt Kiln Emissions
>Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 06:56:27 -0700
>
>I had the opportunity to talk to clay art students at the College of
>Southern Idaho last Friday, and one of them is asking for information on
>the
>emissions from their salt kiln. I have done an archive search and online
>search and find a lot of opinion (I think, I feel, It's logical that...)
>but
>no authoritative measurements of salt kiln emissions. Does anyone know of
>such measurements? Given the importance of salt kilns commercially and in
>studios, I am sure such data exists. If you have any suggestions about
>where I might find facts about the quantity and composition of emissions
>from a salt kiln, would you please let me know? Thanks!
> Dave Finkelnburg
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
_________________________________________________________________
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Earl Krueger on thu 11 mar 04
On Thursday, Mar 11, 2004, at 05:56 US/Pacific, Dave Finkelnburg wrote:
> asking for information on the
> emissions from their salt kiln.
Dave,
Salt and the Atmosphere
Ceramics Technical
Volume 7, November 1998
Has references to other works.
Earl K...
Bothell, WA, USA
John Anthony on thu 11 mar 04
Hi Dave-
I have read a good deal of material on this; I think a bit of it may
have come from clayart. I will try to dig up references this weekend.
My take away was that current thinking is that - not to oversimplify
- when you put a fair amount of salt into a kiln at high temperature
what comes out is mostly--salt.
Plus a relatively small volume of other gases.
Hopefully I will be able to dig this stuff up.
John A
http://www.redhillpottery.com
nice to be back on Clayart!
John Anthony on thu 11 mar 04
Hi all -
here's a quote from an earlier discussion. It references some
potentially available research.
This is lifted from a search on "salt kiln emissions" in the clayart
archives. I'll look more thoroughly when I have a few minutes.
John A
Monona Rosol wrote:
"Figure, shmigure. Monitor the exhaust instead. It is the only way to
know. There are too many variables here. And merely weighing the ware
to
see how much has reacted is to ignore all the other sources."
.......................................................................
Hello Clayart list
I have enjoyed the discussions on salt kiln emissions.
Has anyone mentioned the tests carried out by Peter Meanley (senior
lecturer School of Ceramics) and Dr. Bill Byers, (School of Applied
Science) at the University of Ulster?
They have been carrying out practical testing of salt and soda kiln
emissions from a variety of kilns and have found very little evidence of
Chlorine at all and only small amounts of Hydrogen Chloride.
There is a report in Ceramic Review 167 (Sept/Oct 1997) of tests carried
out at last years Salt and Soda conference at the Royal Forest of Dean
College, Gloucestershire, England. Using the Draegar apparatus which is
sensitive to 0.2 - 3 p.p.m. they found no evidence of chlorine in
samples taken from flue gases at various points through any firings.
Hydrogen Chloride (Hydrochloric acid) was found at 11/12 p.p.m. A wood
fired soda kiln provided 3 p.p.m. Hydrogen Chloride!
Special note was made of two points.
No chlorine has ever been detected in any of their tests.
Hydrogen Chloride levels in these tests were lower than previous tests.
This article and a previous one in Ceramic Review 157 make interesting
reading on this subject. I understand this is part of a continuing study
by potter and chemist..
Ivor and Olive Lewis on fri 12 mar 04
Dear David,
Definitive measurements are in the archives of the British Ceramics
Research Association.
Dates are 1958 and 1960 or there abouts, recalling from memory. These
are all private communications but access can be had through the
Alkali Inspectorate of the British Government. Start with the "Report
to the Minister of Housing and Local Government.... Annual Report of
the Alkali Inspectorate. 96th Report covering the year 1959 Chief
Inspector; J. S. Carter, OBE, PhD, M.Sc, FRIC, M. Inst F. Follow this
paper trail to get to the values.
The basic finding was that Sodium Chloride accounted for less than
fifty percent of the mass of particulate matter and about the same
value for the mass of POTASSIUM CHLORIDE (emphasis, not shouting
sorry) .
It was the Potassium chloride that gave me the clue as to the nature
of the chemical reaction between Clay and Common Salt. See
Transactions of the Australian National Clay conferences Melbourne
1985 and Sydney 1988 for the papers on this topic.
Yes, there is opinion, conjecture, pure guess work, speculation and no
science in the common place ceramic records.
Ask you students to do the Thermodynamic calculations. They support
observations of the Alkali Inspectorate.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
(Who is pleased his education included the acquisition of the skills
of paper trail research.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Finkelnburg"
To:
Sent: Friday, 12 March 2004 12:26
Subject: Salt Kiln Emissions
> I had the opportunity to talk to clay art students at the College of
> Southern Idaho last Friday, and one of them is asking for
information on the
> emissions from their salt kiln. I have done an archive search and
online
> search and find a lot of opinion (I think, I feel, It's logical
that...) but
> no authoritative measurements of salt kiln emissions. Does anyone
know of
> such measurements? Given the importance of salt kilns commercially
and in
> studios, I am sure such data exists. If you have any suggestions
about
> where I might find facts about the quantity and composition of
emissions
> from a salt kiln, would you please let me know? Thanks!
> Dave Finkelnburg
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Ivor and Olive Lewis on fri 12 mar 04
Dear John Anthony,
It is necessary to understand the chemistries of Chlorine compounds to
explain the presence of Hydrogen Chloride in Kiln effluent. Several
potential volatile species which emanate from a salt glaze kiln react
with water to form Hydrogen chloride or Hydrochloric acid. Ferric
Chloride is one of them.
The Royal Forest of Dean results seem good to me.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on fri 12 mar 04
Hi Ivor,
Ans lest we forget, there may be our old pal Mr.
Hydroflouric Acid ( aka Hydrogen Flouride if memory
serve)...as...some of him shows up to visit too, or can...
I do not understand the Chemistries, but I have allways been
intrigued with him...
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ivor and Olive Lewis"
> Dear John Anthony,
> It is necessary to understand the chemistries of Chlorine
compounds to
> explain the presence of Hydrogen Chloride in Kiln
effluent. Several
> potential volatile species which emanate from a salt glaze
kiln react
> with water to form Hydrogen chloride or Hydrochloric acid.
Ferric
> Chloride is one of them.
> The Royal Forest of Dean results seem good to me.
> Best regards,
> Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
Jim V Brooks on fri 12 mar 04
From what I have read there is very little--if any-- hydrochloric acid..
Actually it is much safer and less polluting than a soda firing... Jim in
Denton
Ivor and Olive Lewis on sat 13 mar 04
Dear Phil,
I am always intrigued by the Fluorides. First gemstone I ever cut was
Calcium Fluoride, Aka "Blue John". Olive still has the stone which I
mounted on a bell cap to create a pendant.
I once had some massive cubic crystals given to me by the manager of a
brick factory.
It is always useful to look at the analyses of clays to see what they
contain. If it has CaO in it then question if that is present as
Carbonate, Sulphate or Fluoride. Not enough is known about residual
elements in the clays we use. We ignore their influences. Some might
we worth while panning for their heavy metal sands and Gold.
Yes Fluorine is the most reactive of the Halogen series of elements I
think Cornish stone and similar spars got a bad name because they
discharge Fluorine. Discharge is not considered bad until it gets to
be more than 1 grain per cubic foot (1959). that and sulphur gases
contribute to "Brickworks Smell".
By the way, things have improved.
Best regards,
Ivor
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Saturday, 13 March 2004 5:00
Subject: Re: Salt Kiln Emissions
> Hi Ivor,
>
>
>
> Ans lest we forget, there may be our old pal Mr.
> Hydroflouric Acid ( aka Hydrogen Flouride if memory
> serve)...as...some of him shows up to visit too, or can...
>
> I do not understand the Chemistries, but I have allways been
> intrigued with him...
>
>
> Phil
> Las Vegas
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ivor and Olive Lewis"
>
> > Dear John Anthony,
> > It is necessary to understand the chemistries of Chlorine
> compounds to
> > explain the presence of Hydrogen Chloride in Kiln
> effluent. Several
> > potential volatile species which emanate from a salt glaze
> kiln react
> > with water to form Hydrogen chloride or Hydrochloric acid.
> Ferric
> > Chloride is one of them.
> > The Royal Forest of Dean results seem good to me.
> > Best regards,
> > Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Ivor and Olive Lewis on sat 13 mar 04
Dear Jim,
Barringer ( Pres of a very young AcerS) was saying this about using
NaCl in 1907. Now we know why. But he was ignored in favour of the
great Alex Brongniart, Master of Sevres who said the reaction was
impossible without the intervention of water. Then around about 1880
M. Alex Gorgeu "Proved" that this was correct. The rest, as they say,
is history
The Chemistry of the two processes are poles apart.
Where does you information come from? Do you have references of good
quality laboratory work?
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
> From what I have read there is very little--if any-- hydrochloric
acid..
> Actually it is much safer and less polluting than a soda firing...
Jim in Denton
Peter Wakefield Jackson on sat 13 mar 04
Hi Folks,
Back when I owned Rockdale Union Stoneware in Cambridge, Wisconsin, we had
to do some testing on our salt kiln emissions to qualify for an SBA loan.
While I don't remember ALL the specifics of the report, (it was in 1991 or
so), I do remember that they calculated that only 2% by weight of what was
coming out of the stack, was HCL. The vast majority of the emissions were
water vapor and particulate NaCl. The 2% HCL figure was important,
because the EPA or the State of Wis., (can't remember which) did not
require a permit for the emissions unless there was more than 1 ton of HCL
emitted per year. Since we only used about 25 lbs. of salt per firing,
and fired 3 times per week, we were only putting out about .5 lbs. per
firing of HCL, which on an annual basis was less than 5% of the amount
that would have required permitting.
All the best,
Peter
On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:07:03 +1030, Ivor and Olive Lewis
wrote:
>Dear David,
>Definitive measurements are in the archives of the British Ceramics
>Research Association.
>Dates are 1958 and 1960 or there abouts, recalling from memory. These
>are all private communications but access can be had through the
>Alkali Inspectorate of the British Government. Start with the "Report
>to the Minister of Housing and Local Government.... Annual Report of
>the Alkali Inspectorate. 96th Report covering the year 1959 Chief
>Inspector; J. S. Carter, OBE, PhD, M.Sc, FRIC, M. Inst F. Follow this
>paper trail to get to the values.
>The basic finding was that Sodium Chloride accounted for less than
>fifty percent of the mass of particulate matter and about the same
>value for the mass of POTASSIUM CHLORIDE (emphasis, not shouting
>sorry) .
>It was the Potassium chloride that gave me the clue as to the nature
>of the chemical reaction between Clay and Common Salt. See
>Transactions of the Australian National Clay conferences Melbourne
>1985 and Sydney 1988 for the papers on this topic.
>Yes, there is opinion, conjecture, pure guess work, speculation and no
>science in the common place ceramic records.
>Ask you students to do the Thermodynamic calculations. They support
>observations of the Alkali Inspectorate.
>Best regards,
>Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
>(Who is pleased his education included the acquisition of the skills
>of paper trail research.)
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dave Finkelnburg"
>To:
>Sent: Friday, 12 March 2004 12:26
>Subject: Salt Kiln Emissions
>
>
>> I had the opportunity to talk to clay art students at the College of
>> Southern Idaho last Friday, and one of them is asking for
>information on the
>> emissions from their salt kiln. I have done an archive search and
>online
>> search and find a lot of opinion (I think, I feel, It's logical
>that...) but
>> no authoritative measurements of salt kiln emissions. Does anyone
>know of
>> such measurements? Given the importance of salt kilns commercially
>and in
>> studios, I am sure such data exists. If you have any suggestions
>about
>> where I might find facts about the quantity and composition of
>emissions
>> from a salt kiln, would you please let me know? Thanks!
>> Dave Finkelnburg
>>
>>
>______________________________________________________________________
>________
>> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
>subscription
>> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
____
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Ivor and Olive Lewis on sun 14 mar 04
Dear Peter Wakefield Jackson,
Good report and thank you for letting us all know about that
situation.
The key phrase is <<... I do remember that they calculated that only
2% by weight of what was coming out of the stack, was HCL. >> with
emphasis being placed on "...they calculated...". Now, I wonder what
assumptions were made to arrive at that value. What was the source of
knowledge that gave rise to that value. Did they explain this to you?
During my first experience of a salt firing I pointed out that there
was possibly no HCl in the kiln effluent but was told by the lecturer
that I was wrong. Hydrogen chloride has a distinctive odour which I
could not detect. So for the next firing I set Microscope slides on
the ledge at the top of the stack and left them there till the salting
was completed.
Under X100 magnification there was a mixture of small cubic crystals
and white shapeless fragments. After standing open to the atmosphere
for a day these changed into droplets of fluid.
This might be a useful thing for those who are firing with Salt.
Should you do this I suggest that if you get a similar result you
that the droplets be tested with Universal pH indicator paper. My
prediction is that they will be acidic. I wish I had thought of doing
that at the time.
The Kilns at Eltringham Pipe Works (Tyneside) put out brown smoke
during salting.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Wakefield Jackson"
To:
Sent: Sunday, 14 March 2004 1:18
Subject: Re: Salt Kiln Emissions
> Hi Folks,
>
> Back when I owned Rockdale Union Stoneware in Cambridge, Wisconsin,
we had
> to do some testing on our salt kiln emissions to qualify for an SBA
loan.
> While I don't remember ALL the specifics of the report, (it was in
1991 or
> so), I do remember that they calculated that only 2% by weight of
what was
> coming out of the stack, was HCL. The vast majority of the
emissions were
> water vapor and particulate NaCl. The 2% HCL figure was important,
> because the EPA or the State of Wis., (can't remember which) did not
> require a permit for the emissions unless there was more than 1 ton
of HCL
> emitted per year. Since we only used about 25 lbs. of salt per
firing,
> and fired 3 times per week, we were only putting out about .5 lbs.
per
> firing of HCL, which on an annual basis was less than 5% of the
amount
> that would have required permitting.
>
> All the best,
>
> Peter
>
>
> On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:07:03 +1030, Ivor and Olive Lewis
> wrote:
>
> >Dear David,
> >Definitive measurements are in the archives of the British Ceramics
> >Research Association.
> >Dates are 1958 and 1960 or there abouts, recalling from memory.
These
> >are all private communications but access can be had through the
> >Alkali Inspectorate of the British Government. Start with the
"Report
> >to the Minister of Housing and Local Government.... Annual Report
of
> >the Alkali Inspectorate. 96th Report covering the year 1959 Chief
> >Inspector; J. S. Carter, OBE, PhD, M.Sc, FRIC, M. Inst F. Follow
this
> >paper trail to get to the values.
> >The basic finding was that Sodium Chloride accounted for less than
> >fifty percent of the mass of particulate matter and about the same
> >value for the mass of POTASSIUM CHLORIDE (emphasis, not shouting
> >sorry) .
> >It was the Potassium chloride that gave me the clue as to the
nature
> >of the chemical reaction between Clay and Common Salt. See
> >Transactions of the Australian National Clay conferences Melbourne
> >1985 and Sydney 1988 for the papers on this topic.
> >Yes, there is opinion, conjecture, pure guess work, speculation and
no
> >science in the common place ceramic records.
> >Ask you students to do the Thermodynamic calculations. They support
> >observations of the Alkali Inspectorate.
> >Best regards,
> >Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
> >(Who is pleased his education included the acquisition of the
skills
> >of paper trail research.)
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Dave Finkelnburg"
> >To:
> >Sent: Friday, 12 March 2004 12:26
> >Subject: Salt Kiln Emissions
> >
> >
> >> I had the opportunity to talk to clay art students at the College
of
> >> Southern Idaho last Friday, and one of them is asking for
> >information on the
> >> emissions from their salt kiln. I have done an archive search
and
> >online
> >> search and find a lot of opinion (I think, I feel, It's logical
> >that...) but
> >> no authoritative measurements of salt kiln emissions. Does
anyone
> >know of
> >> such measurements? Given the importance of salt kilns
commercially
> >and in
> >> studios, I am sure such data exists. If you have any suggestions
> >about
> >> where I might find facts about the quantity and composition of
> >emissions
> >> from a salt kiln, would you please let me know? Thanks!
> >> Dave Finkelnburg
> >>
> >>
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
_
> >________
> >> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >>
> >> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> >subscription
> >> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >>
> >> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> >melpots@pclink.com.
> >
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
_____
> ____
> >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> >You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Peter Wakefield Jackson on mon 15 mar 04
Dear Ivor,
I believe that the method used to collect a sample of the emmissions was a
sort of wand that sucked the emmissions straight from the top of the
stack into a collection tube. But I don't know what analytical process
was used to figure out what was in it. I'll see if I can retrieve more
info from old records.
Regarding the Tyneside works, were they firing with coal? That could
account for the smoke being brown. I was working with potteries in Ipoh,
Malaysia last week, (I'm writing this from Yixing, China, where I'm
working with another pottery)that still do wood fired salt firing, and the
emmissions from their stacks was a brownish color only when the slab with
the salt went into the chamber. As the wood burned down more, the
emission was white, and before the salt, when stoked with wood, it was
blackish.
By the way, in the industrialized setting of salt-glazed flowerpots in
Malaysia, they have an interesting twist on the traditional "dragon" kilns
of China and Vietnam: the salt kilns I saw were all absolutely horizontal,
tube kilns of at least 100' in length. They had massive blowers inducing
draft into the chimneys, and the kiln was fired starting at the other end,
and working the temperature up to salting, about 5' at a time. The total
length of the firing was about 30 hours from warm up to finish.
All the best,
Peter
Peter Wakefield Jackson, President
P. WAKEFIELD & CO., LTD.
Makers of traditional handmade pottery,
including Guy Wolff Garden Pottery
608-423-7060, Voice
608-423-7184, Fax
http://www.pwakefield.com/
>The key phrase is <<... I do remember that they calculated that only
>2% by weight of what was coming out of the stack, was HCL. >> with
>emphasis being placed on "...they calculated...". Now, I wonder what
>assumptions were made to arrive at that value. What was the source of
>knowledge that gave rise to that value. Did they explain this to you?
>
>The Kilns at Eltringham Pipe Works (Tyneside) put out brown smoke
>during salting.
>Best regards,
> Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
>
Ivor and Olive Lewis on tue 16 mar 04
Dear Peter,
Thank you for those valuable notes.
All of the factories I visited in the North of England and Scotland
making heavy clay products used coal as a fuel. The brown fumes were
emitted during the salting phase. Otherwise they kept smoke to a
minimum by efficient control of stoking and manipulating the dampers.
Research seems to indicate that brown effluent colour is due to Iron
Oxide generated by the reaction of Iron Chlorides and water vapour.
This is one of the secondary, post glaze forming reactions noted by
Barringer and Hydrochloric acid is one of the products of reaction.
If the emissions were collected using that apparatus then they were
most likely collected over water. In passing through water many of the
compounds would undergo similar reactions. If this was done then
results or conclusions claiming Hydrogen chloride is suspect. Yes, I
would be interested to learn more from you about this.
White fume, as I found from my own experience of firing a 12 cu ft
kiln was that white smoke predominated during saltings which cleared
slowly when the damper was opened. And as I said, slides collected a
white particulate residue.
The Malaysia Kiln has an interesting design. Will you be writing up
your travels for publication, either as articles or as a book?
Enjoy the remainder of your travels.
Best regards,
Ivor.
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