Stephani Stephenson on tue 30 mar 04
There are a number of angles on this one. The one word I would like to
focus on is 'matching'.
1. 'matching' preexisting tile, ANY tile, can be a
nightmare.....matching glazes, etc. can prove to be difficult,
and far more time consuming than one imagines...
Also, Your definition of a good 'match' versus the definition and
expectations of your client,
can become problematic, and needs to be spelled out,
even if you provide an original or copyright free design but try to
'match' the colors used.
I once had to match some yellow glazed tile from the 20s and 30s, (on a
historic building rennovation),
originally made with lead/antimony I imagine...
I go so close I could barely tell the difference,
( i.e. I got as close to 'nailing ' the color and surface as I could
possibly get, and using less toxic materials),
yet the historian on the project didn't feel it 'matched. Must have
compared them under a magnifying glass!
so I would recommend carefully considering the entire notion of
'matching' tile to begin with.
Other than the above advice I would say do some follow up calls to
Franciscan to see if tile is in production , etc.
If it is still produced and copyrighted, I say respect it.
(Having said that, if you look at the designs of the 20s, tile
companies copied each other slavishly and yet put copyright notices
all over everything. I am not an expert regarding the legal
underpinnings, but I do recommend staying in clear territory in this
regard.
There are lots of copyright free or copyright expired designs out
there and , don't forget, your own designs and work!
On one hand , one would imagine with each selling and reselling of the
company, design lines are discontinued .
However, to put a human face on the 'corporate' large tile company
aspect ,
real people designed lines for Fransiscan not only when it was part
of Gladding McBean way back when,
but when it was owned by Interpace, out of Los Angeles.
For example, respected California Studio Potter Harrison MacIntosh and
his wife Marguerite
designed dinnerware for Mikasa from 1970-1980 and , guess what?!!!
thay also designed Tiles for Interpace (Franciscan Ceramics), in the
1970s
(this is noted in Bill Stern's book, "California Pottery: From Missions
to Modernism".)
So it is possible, probable and even likely that the original
designers of your 1970s tile may still be alive, kicking, and
working, irregardless of the changes in company ownership.
A brief search indicates Mr. MacIntosh is ... maybe he would know
about the floral tile? I have no idea.
Of course your ethical decision may hinge on the scale and extent of
the project.
I can see replacing a few tiles, if those tiles are out of production
and there is no other solution....
but 100 tiles is a lot of tile , in my mind.
Can you offer your customer a related floral design? Looking at the
overall project, is there another solution?
Is client insistent on a match or would they consider another option?
Think in terms of 'complementing' the original tile, not 'matching' it.
this small difference in terminology and approach will allow you to
sleep at night, and possibly re-frame the project in your customer's
eyes as well.....
Stephani Stephenson
steph@revivaltileworks.com
http://www.revivaltileworks.com
Marc Lisle on tue 30 mar 04
We are considering an interesting legal / ethical design dilemma:
A potential customer who had decorative floor tile installed in their
home in 1978, contacted us, hoping to have 100 or more replica tiles
produced to match the existing design.
The design is a low relief floral design by Franciscan / Interpace which
has a clearly stamped copyright symbol next to the company names
on the back. Doing some research on the web led us to this
information:
"In 1979 Josiah Wedgwood & Sons, LTD of England acquired
Franciscan from INTERPACE, and renamed the company Franciscan
Ceramics, Inc."
I assume copyrights of designs transfer to the bigger fish who
swallow up the smaller companies. However, if the job is a "one-off"
(or 100-off actually) only to be installed in a single residence, and we
are not going to sell the tiles anywhere else, do you think we need to
get permission from Wedgwood to reproduce a 1970's tile that is
most likely not existing in any tile sellers' inventories any longer?
Thanks for any opinions (or free legal advice),
Marc
Gerry Lockhart on tue 30 mar 04
Marc,
I'm sure the purchasing company acquired any and all copyrights, trademarks,
patents, etc along witht he purchase of the company. Ethically and Legally
it doesn't matter if you're making 1 or 100,000 copies of their design, it
is still copying. And it doesn't matter if you're selling to 1 person on
hundreds. The reason for the copyright is so the creator (or in this case,
the owner of the work) profits from the use of that creation. If you copy
it and sell it, the copyright owner does not profit from that transaction...
there's the problem.
Now, having said that. The fact it's 1970's vintage item... it's possible
the copyright has expired, it's also possible the owning company is not
interested in producing more and has no stock... but that should be
determined before going forward...... if you want a clear concious.
Concider it that opposite direction, if you designed them originally, would
you mind someone else producing, selling and profiting from copies of your
work?
Gerry Lockhart
Wizard's Endeavors
Hockingport, OH
Marc Lisle writes:
> We are considering an interesting legal / ethical design dilemma:
>
> A potential customer who had decorative floor tile installed in their
> home in 1978, contacted us, hoping to have 100 or more replica tiles
> produced to match the existing design.
>
.....
Simona Drentea on tue 30 mar 04
In a message dated 03/30/2004 6:04:28 PM Mountain Standard Time,
gerry@WIZARDSENDEAVORS.COM writes:
<copies of their design, it is still copying. >>
I missed the original post, but here's some ideas. Yes, it is still copying,
but it may be ethical & legal. In the case of rubber stamps for instance,
you can often get permission to use the stamp & sell your wares where you used
the stamp. Sometimes they limit the number you can make. In the case of the
tiles, I guess the first thing I'd find out if is if the company is still in
business. 1978 is a long time ago & they're probably not in business anymore.
If they are, I'd approach them w/the situation. I doubt that they'd have a big
problem with such a small number of tiles from so long ago, but if they're in
business, I would check w/them. If they're not in business anymore, you'll
have to decide the ethics of it yourself, but personally I wouldn't have a
problem with it. It's not like your client is trying to recreate the tile to sell
a million of them & get rich, they probably just want to match another room
to what they have. If you feel it's morally wrong & you still want the job,
you could probably suggest a complementary design (if they are remodeling &
trying to match a room) that would give that similar feel they want, but not be
exactly the same. An interior designer may help to design the 2nd tile.
You could also do some general checking to see if floor tiles are even
copyrighted to begin with. You could go to a store that sold similar type tiles &
see if they're copyrighted. If they are highly decorative handpainted tiles
then they may be. But, if they were mass-produced type decorative tiles, I'd be
surprised if they were copyrighted. They may well have not even been made in
the US.
Just my 2 cents.
Simona in CO
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on tue 30 mar 04
Hi Marc,
My own sense of propriety here, if I understand you
correctly, would be to contact 'Wedgewood' and tell them the
situation - that you are a small producer, or Ceramic
Artist, considering a small comission from a private party
for some Tiles...
And that these Tiles are to made to match the appearance of
some old ones, whose design you understand to have been
Copyrighted by some previous incarnation of some Company
that Wedgewood had since absorbed...and, you can offer to
send them some 'j-pegs' showing both sides of the exemplar
Tile in question...
And that you are calling to see if they might tell you who
the Copyright holder is, and thence to find, what rites,
observences, obsequenses or what, the Copyright holder may
want from you, so you can do the work and feel you have
been fair in your efforts to pay respects.
If you like, make some good notes about talking with 'who',
when, and at what Number or extention at 'Wedgewood', or
whoever has the answer you like anyway, and see if they are
willing to commit their answer in a reply to the Letter of
inquirey you shall send following the 'phone Call...so you
can have something for your scrap-book and all...
Like that...
Phil
elvee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Lisle"
> We are considering an interesting legal / ethical design
dilemma:
>
> A potential customer who had decorative floor tile
installed in their
> home in 1978, contacted us, hoping to have 100 or more
replica tiles
> produced to match the existing design.
>
> The design is a low relief floral design by Franciscan /
Interpace which
> has a clearly stamped copyright symbol next to the company
names
> on the back. Doing some research on the web led us to this
> information:
>
> "In 1979 Josiah Wedgwood & Sons, LTD of England acquired
> Franciscan from INTERPACE, and renamed the company
Franciscan
> Ceramics, Inc."
>
> I assume copyrights of designs transfer to the bigger fish
who
> swallow up the smaller companies. However, if the job is a
"one-off"
> (or 100-off actually) only to be installed in a single
residence, and we
> are not going to sell the tiles anywhere else, do you
think we need to
> get permission from Wedgwood to reproduce a 1970's tile
that is
> most likely not existing in any tile sellers' inventories
any longer?
>
> Thanks for any opinions (or free legal advice),
>
> Marc
>
>
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Ivor and Olive Lewis on wed 31 mar 04
Dear Marc Lisle,
You can write to Wedgwood and ask. If they say "Yes" you are in the
clear. If you do not ask and make the tiles you are in breach of the
rules.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
.
ccpottery@BELLSOUTH.NET on wed 31 mar 04
Ever hear the saying ... No good deed goes unpunished?
The punishment will not come from Wedgewood.
It will come from trying to reproduce factory fired tiles
made from clays found only in England.
It will come from trying to match the color of tiles
that have been aging since the seventies.
It will come from customers who whine they don't look
exactly like the others.
A lawsuit from Wedgewood would probably end up looking
like a welcome reason to stop.
Chris Campbell - in North Carolina - like a thousand other clayarters
who took on special orders with good natured cheer -
been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
Chris Campbell Pottery, llc
9417 Koupela Drive
Raleigh, NC 27615
1-800-652-1008
FAX : 919-676-2062
E Mail : chris@ccpottery.com
Website : www.ccpottery.com
Wholesale : www.wholesalecrafts.com
George Koller on wed 31 mar 04
> Ever hear the saying ... No good deed goes unpunished?
>
> The punishment will not come from Wedgewood.
>
> It will come from trying to reproduce factory fired tiles
> made from clays found only in England.
>
> It will come from trying to match the color of tiles
> that have been aging since the seventies.
>
> It will come from customers who whine they don't look
> exactly like the others.
>
> A lawsuit from Wedgewood would probably end up looking
> like a welcome reason to stop.
>
> Chris Campbell
So much wisdom in so few lines! Seems to me this is experience
to be learned from, but necessarily to run from....
It occurs to me that if the customer is educated to be properly
aware of these issues before hand and truly accept the situation as
a best effort" by an educated artisan using modern materials in a
"spirit of" mode - then someone could not only have a happy customer
but also a way out of the copyright issue.
Then again, I've got a surplus of "optimist" tee-shirts.
george koller
sturgeon bay, wi - door county
northport, mi - leelanau county
two great places separated by 100 miles of great lake.
Jim Tabor on wed 31 mar 04
George Koller wrote: The punishment will not come from Wedgewood
>>It will come from trying to reproduce factory fired tiles
>>made from clays found only in England.
>>
>>It will come from trying to match the color of tiles
>>that have been aging since the seventies.
>>
Good point George and I also discount the ethics issue.
My guess is it can be done if there is the will to test enough. I have
sought copyright permission on projects and never got an answer so I
went forward and when there was a copyright fee, it was a very small amount.
I have a nice note from a designer of a restoration project that said I
saved her from court by faithfully reproducing tiles made around 1900.
The original order was for 8 tiles to replace the ones broken by
careless workers; however, by the time it was done, I had to provide
around 60 field tiles and trim. I hope you have a test kiln if you take
on such a specific projects.
Sir Wedgewood sold the old family biz to Waterford Crystal well over a
decade ago. I don't know how a company (Waterford) buys a company
Wedgewood) that is 10 times as big. I'm also puzzled by why the sale
took place.
My guess is there would not be a response (Wedgewood or Waterford) to
reproduce tiles for such a small project and they also wouldn't supply a
match to discontinued tile. I see it more like other restoration
projects where it may be the only means to an end. Let them know you
want to do the project and you're more likely to get referrals from them
than to be sued. Their work will live on rather than be replaced and
there are not many/enough people that would take on such an endeavor. I
see the important issue here is your ability for restoration rather than
ethics in that your project will not rob them of fame or fortune. If you
can pull it off, everyone (Wedgewood, client, you) wins.
Jim Tabor
>>
>>
Marc Lisle on thu 1 apr 04
I wish to offer my grateful thanks to all who have replied to my original
post, on ClayArt and also off the list. Each of you have provided
wisdom, insight and helpful guidance.
Since I have worked for 20 years as a designer, and illustrator I do
respect the meaning of the copyright symbol.
I will contact Wedgwood and or Waterford before accepting this job
because I am curious to see what kind of replies I might receive from
those companies, and if permission is denied, it may allow me to do
some original designs, which is what I would prefer to do anyway.
However, I can appreciate how difficult it can be to "match" an existing
design's clay body and glaze, so those who recommend walking or
running away from a job like this, also have given "paws" for thought.
Thanks,
Marc
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