Jorge Nabel on sun 4 apr 04
David Hendley Says
"I have found that it takes quite a bit of stain to make a deep saturated
color, on the order of 10% in a slip to 15% in a glaze. "
When I read something like this I have some questions to do.
-Do you include the stain with its formula in the seger formulation??
-Do you think or know that this 10 or 15% changes the glaze?
-Does it changes it stability??
-Does it change its (melting) cone point???
-Is it obvious that this glaze will not be a liner???
Im trying to make a yellow glaze.A strong colour,not just buttery,and rutile
is not enough. But the yellow stains are needed in that quantity.So this is
something Im dealing with.
Can you go a little further in the explanation?
Thanks.Jorge en Buenos Aires
www.jorgenabel.com
Paul Lewing on sun 4 apr 04
on 4/4/04 12:38 PM, Jorge Nabel at alfareriaurbana@SION.COM wrote:
> -Do you include the stain with its formula in the seger formulation??
No. Colorants are typically not included in a Seger analysis, and even more
rarely are they included in calculation program analyses. One of the main
reasons for this is that information about the expansion numbers for the
colorants is sketchy.
> -Do you think or know that this 10 or 15% changes the glaze?
Often it does, depending on the colorant. Some are fluxes, some are
refractory.
> -Does it changes it stability?
It might- only testing would tell.
> -Does it change its (melting) cone point?
Again, it might.
> -Is it obvious that this glaze will not be a liner?
Yep.
>
> Im trying to make a yellow glaze.A strong colour,not just buttery,and rutile
> is not enough. But the yellow stains are needed in that quantity.
The red inclusion stain seems to need a lot more stain to make a strong
color than any other. I have not found the yellow and orange cadmium stains
to need quite so much. Most stains, including most other yellow stains (and
there are at least 4 other yellow colorants that are made into stains)
require about 6% to make a strong color, and anything over about 8% is
wasted.
Paul Lewing, Seattle
John Hesselberth on sun 4 apr 04
On Sunday, April 4, 2004, at 04:38 PM, Jorge Nabel wrote:
> When I read something like this I have some questions to do.
> -Do you include the stain with its formula in the seger formulation??
> -Do you think or know that this 10 or 15% changes the glaze?
> -Does it changes it stability??
> -Does it change its (melting) cone point???
> -Is it obvious that this glaze will not be a liner???
Hello Jorge,
I can't answer all your questions, but I will try on a couple. First
stains--at least those made my Mason--contain no copper, so the
materials they do contain are usually easier to keep in a glaze.
Second, they are often in the form of a spinel or otherwise combined
with other materials such that they don't dissolve in glazes the same
way raw colorant oxides do. That is why they stay pretty much the color
they are in the final fired glaze. The technology to make them is
fairly tightly held--not widely published--so that is most of what I
know about them. I have tested only a couple glazes, that contain up to
10% stain, for leaching and found them to be pretty stable if the base
glaze was a good, stable one. I tend to think of them as tiny, colored
particles suspended in and surrounded by the base glaze.
There are, of course, a number of stain manufacturers around the world
so some may use very different processes and give different results
than what I describe above. Hopefully, someone who knows more than I
about stains will give you better answers.
Regards,
John
http://www.frogpondpottery.com
http://www.masteringglazes.com
Lois Ruben Aronow on mon 5 apr 04
> When I read something like this I have some questions to do.
> -Do you include the stain with its formula in the seger formulation??
I don't. I have a good base that takes color well, and go from there.
> -Do you think or know that this 10 or 15% changes the glaze?
I know that this changes the glaze. Some of my glazes come out opaque; some
translucent (base is crystal clear). Some stains make the glaze craze, some
do not. I adjust each glaze accordingly.
> -Does it changes it stability??
Not that I've notices with mine.
> -Does it change its (melting) cone point???
One of my colors is better cooler; the others doesn't matter.
> -Is it obvious that this glaze will not be a liner???
I use all my glazes on the insides of functional pieces.
>
> Im trying to make a yellow glaze.A strong colour,not just
> buttery,and rutile is not enough. But the yellow stains are
> needed in that quantity.So this is something Im dealing with.
Encapulated stains are great. Both Mason and Cerdec make good yellow
stains.
Alex Solla on mon 5 apr 04
Jorge-
I spend most of my time nowadays working with Mason stains. Simple but strong colors. Here's my 2 pennies tossed into the pot.
The stain is figured as an addition to the 100% total... that way when you change size of batch you still know that a 12%addition of stain is just that... an addition to your total batch.
Yes the addition of stain changes the chemistry and behavior of the glaze. In some instances, A LOT. Depends on the glaze. Had one stain I used totally dry out the glaze and make it as dry as concrete. Gotta test.
So... you want yellow. Get mason's color chart or the new Bailey catalogue (Glad someone finally put a color representation of Mason's colors in their catalogue! ABOUT TIME!).... try the yellows. Try the cheap ones, and try the Cadmium encapsulated ones too. Very different yellow.
But most of all, have fun and TEST TEST TEST.
Enjoy.
Alex Solla
Cold Springs Studio
4088 Cold Springs Road
Trumansburg, NY 14886
607-387-4042 voice/fax
Jorge Nabel wrote:
When I read something like this I have some questions to do.
-Do you include the stain with its formula in the seger formulation??
-Do you think or know that this 10 or 15% changes the glaze?
-Does it changes it stability??
-Does it change its (melting) cone point???
-Is it obvious that this glaze will not be a liner???
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
Alisa Liskin Clausen on mon 5 apr 04
at least those made my Mason--contain no copper, so the
>materials they do contain are usually easier to keep in a glaze.
>Second, they are often in the form of a spinel or otherwise combined
>with other materials such that they don't dissolve in glazes the same
>way raw colorant oxides do. That is why they stay pretty much the color
>they are in the final fired glaze. The technology to make them is
>fairly tightly held--not widely published--so that is most of what I
>know about them. I have tested only a couple glazes, that contain up to
>10% stain, for leaching and found them to be pretty stable if the base
>glaze was a good, stable one. I tend to think of them as tiny, colored
>particles suspended in and surrounded by the base glaze.
>
>There are, of course, a number of stain manufacturers around the world
>so some may use very different processes and give different results
>than what I describe above. Hopefully, someone who knows more than I
>about stains will give you better answers.
Dear John,
I am using more stains lately to color two bases I use in my studio.
Although I like the effect of Chrome/Tin pink glazes, I am thinking that
due to hazards of working with Chrome, I may want to use a burgandy stain
to achieve roundly the color of for example, MC6G Raspberry Glaze. I am
using small "patches" of this color.
Do you know if (some)Red Stains contain Chrome? When a stain is described
as synthetic color, I am supposing this means, something other than raw
oxides to make the color. But where do these colors or pigments come
from? If a Red stain does contain Chrome, does it fume like Chrome Oxide
or does it also become "tiny colored particals suspended in and surrounded
by glaze". But if that were so with Chrome, how could it interact with the
opacifier in the stain to turn pink?
Side note; Are there other opacifiers, such as Zircopax, that interact with
Chrome to produce pinks, or it only Chrome/Tin that can achieve this?
As you can hear, I am swimming and sinking here. I am becoming more
interested in this subject because I know so little about it. I am mostly
wondering if I am doing myself any service, by avoiding Chrome/Tin and
using a stain instead?
Although the final glaze, MC6G Raspberry,is stable (noted that I should
watch for eventual crazing),I hesitate to use it due to the Chrome fuming
when I fire. If I am not being hysterical about Chrome and it's fumes, I
would rather drop these glazes and instead live with a burgandy color made
by stains. If they do not fume! If they do, well, mother in law blue.
I hope you can make out enough of this blur in my mind to answer some of
these questions.
Thanks and regards,
from Alisa in Denmark
John Hesselberth on mon 5 apr 04
Hi Alisa,
I can't answer all your questions, but I've taken a crack at a couple
below.
On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 03:12 PM, Alisa Liskin Clausen wrote:
>
>
> Although I like the effect of Chrome/Tin pink glazes, I am thinking
> that
> due to hazards of working with Chrome, I may want to use a burgandy
> stain
> to achieve roundly the color of for example, MC6G Raspberry Glaze. I
> am
> using small "patches" of this color.
>
> Do you know if (some)Red Stains contain Chrome?
Yes they do. Some also contain cadmium (true reds). Mason stains called
Crimson and Deep Crimson both contain Chromium and Tin. But nearly all
that are in the pink, crimson, coral family contain both chromium and
tin.
> When a stain is described
> as synthetic color, I am supposing this means, something other than raw
> oxides to make the color. But where do these colors or pigments come
> from? If a Red stain does contain Chrome, does it fume like Chrome
> Oxide
> or does it also become "tiny colored particals suspended in and
> surrounded
> by glaze".
Sorry, I have no idea on the above.
> But if that were so with Chrome, how could it interact with the
> opacifier in the stain to turn pink?
Tin is incorporated into the stain.
>
> Side note; Are there other opacifiers, such as Zircopax, that interact
> with
> Chrome to produce pinks, or it only Chrome/Tin that can achieve this?
No, not that I am aware of.
>
> As you can hear, I am swimming and sinking here. I am becoming more
> interested in this subject because I know so little about it. I am
> mostly
> wondering if I am doing myself any service, by avoiding Chrome/Tin and
> using a stain instead?
You're not sinking. You are doing great. And no I personally don't
think you are doing yourself any service by using stains instead of
chromium oxide and tin oxide. I know you know how to handle the
chromium safely and the stains are probably considerably more expensive.
>
>
> Although the final glaze, MC6G Raspberry,is stable (noted that I should
> watch for eventual crazing),I hesitate to use it due to the Chrome
> fuming
> when I fire. If I am not being hysterical about Chrome and it's fumes,
> I
> would rather drop these glazes and instead live with a burgandy color
> made
> by stains. If they do not fume! If they do, well, mother in law blue.
I have no idea whether the stains fume or not. If your kiln is well
ventilated I wouldn't worry about the chromium fuming unless you are
using tin in other glazes and are getting pink flashes you don't want.
Regards,
John
>
http://www.frogpondpottery.com
http://www.masteringglazes.com
Ababi on tue 6 apr 04
Hello Alisa
I think the chrome is not our biggest enemy among the "reds". I am afraid that if it will
not be chrome tin it might be cadmium and selenium.
Ultrox will not give you red because the 0.3-0.4% chrome is painting the TIN in red.
By the way , John: Does the 0.4% of chrome is making the glaze (a stable one of
course) a "foodless" glaze?
Ababi Sharon
Glaze addict
Kibbutz Shoval Israel
ababisha@shoval.org.il
http://ababi.active.co.il
http://www.matrix2000.co.nz/Matrix%20Demo/Ababi.htm
A link to the ceramics forum in Hebrew: (You must have Hebrew fonts)
http://www.botzpottery.co.il/kishurim.html
---------- Original Message ----------
>at least those made my Mason--contain no copper, so the
>>materials they do contain are usually easier to keep in a glaze.
>>Second, they are often in the form of a spinel or otherwise combined
>>with other materials such that they don't dissolve in glazes the same
>>way raw colorant oxides do. That is why they stay pretty much the color
>>they are in the final fired glaze. The technology to make them is
>>fairly tightly held--not widely published--so that is most of what I
>>know about them. I have tested only a couple glazes, that contain up to
>>10% stain, for leaching and found them to be pretty stable if the base
>>glaze was a good, stable one. I tend to think of them as tiny, colored
>>particles suspended in and surrounded by the base glaze.
>>
>>There are, of course, a number of stain manufacturers around the world
>>so some may use very different processes and give different results
>>than what I describe above. Hopefully, someone who knows more than I
>>about stains will give you better answers.
>Dear John,
>I am using more stains lately to color two bases I use in my studio.
>Although I like the effect of Chrome/Tin pink glazes, I am thinking that
>due to hazards of working with Chrome, I may want to use a burgandy stain
>to achieve roundly the color of for example, MC6G Raspberry Glaze. I am
>using small "patches" of this color.
>Do you know if (some)Red Stains contain Chrome? When a stain is described
>as synthetic color, I am supposing this means, something other than raw
>oxides to make the color. But where do these colors or pigments come
>from? If a Red stain does contain Chrome, does it fume like Chrome Oxide
>or does it also become "tiny colored particals suspended in and surrounded
>by glaze". But if that were so with Chrome, how could it interact with the
>opacifier in the stain to turn pink?
>Side note; Are there other opacifiers, such as Zircopax, that interact with
>Chrome to produce pinks, or it only Chrome/Tin that can achieve this?
>As you can hear, I am swimming and sinking here. I am becoming more
>interested in this subject because I know so little about it. I am mostly
>wondering if I am doing myself any service, by avoiding Chrome/Tin and
>using a stain instead?
>Although the final glaze, MC6G Raspberry,is stable (noted that I should
>watch for eventual crazing),I hesitate to use it due to the Chrome fuming
>when I fire. If I am not being hysterical about Chrome and it's fumes, I
>would rather drop these glazes and instead live with a burgandy color made
>by stains. If they do not fume! If they do, well, mother in law blue.
>I hope you can make out enough of this blur in my mind to answer some of
>these questions.
>Thanks and regards,
>from Alisa in Denmark
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
Carol Tripp on tue 6 apr 04
Hi Alisa,
You can find out the composition of Mason and Spectrum stains by clicking;
http://www.baileypottery.com/masterindex.htm#Clay
Look under Stains and go where you wish. Bailey's has some useful info
about stains on both the Mason and Spectrum pages..
You could also go to http://www.masoncolor.com and see what they have to
say. I think you can also contact them directly.
Apart from that, I know zip about stains. Can only point to the place in
the library. Thank goodness for the Internet;-)
Best regards,
Carol
Dubai, UAE
>
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
John Hesselberth on tue 6 apr 04
Hi Ababi,
It would probably still be stable---but (you knew this was coming),
test, test, test.
John
On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 11:39 PM, Ababi wrote:
> By the way , John: Does the 0.4% of chrome is making the glaze (a
> stable one of
> course) a "foodless" glaze?
http://www.frogpondpottery.com
http://www.masteringglazes.com
David Hewitt on tue 6 apr 04
I have been following this thread with interest as it has made me think
about why we do use stains in some instances and colouring oxides in
other cases.
I started to put my thoughts down as follows and wonder if this is a
reasonable set of statements.
1. Some colours are difficult to reproduce using colouring oxides.
2. Some colours, made using colouring oxides, and used to decorate
on glaze will diffuse into the surrounding glaze and so make producing a
sharp edge difficult. Stains can overcome this.
3. The colour produced using a stain is more predicable and obvious
from the colour of the raw stain and hence results are more predictable.
4. A Stain, used within its firing temperature, does not melt into
the glaze but stays as finely dispersed particles in suspension and so
retains its raw colour. How this shows in the final fired glaze will
vary according to the glaze in which it is used, but it will be far more
consistent than with colouring oxides alone.
5. Stains are not soluble and so overcome such problems that may,
for example, arise from directly using vanadium pentoxide.
6. Stains which may contain toxic materials can be handled more
safely by the potter.
7. Stains have less effect on a glaze coefficient of expansion than
colouring oxides.
I am not sure if all these statements are wholly correct and there may
other important aspects that I have not thought of. Any comments would
be appreciated.
In message , Jorge Nabel writes
>David Hendley Says
>"I have found that it takes quite a bit of stain to make a deep saturated
>color, on the order of 10% in a slip to 15% in a glaze. "
>
>When I read something like this I have some questions to do.
>-Do you include the stain with its formula in the seger formulation??
>-Do you think or know that this 10 or 15% changes the glaze?
>-Does it changes it stability??
>-Does it change its (melting) cone point???
>-Is it obvious that this glaze will not be a liner???
>
>Im trying to make a yellow glaze.A strong colour,not just buttery,and rutile
>is not enough. But the yellow stains are needed in that quantity.So this is
>something Im dealing with.
>Can you go a little further in the explanation?
>
>Thanks.Jorge en Buenos Aires
>
>www.jorgenabel.com
--
David Hewitt
David Hewitt Pottery
South Wales UK
Web:- http://www.dhpot.demon.co.uk
Alisa Liskin Clausen on tue 6 apr 04
If a Red stain does contain Chrome, does it fume like Chrome
>> Oxide
>> or does it also become "tiny colored particals suspended in and
>> surrounded
>> by glaze".
>Sorry, I have no idea on the above.
Dear Clayart,
Thank you for all of the responses, also some off list, which are very
interesting and helpful.
I have suddendly the light bulb burning that I can try some tests to see if
stains fume. Ron wrote that that the Chrome will fume a Chrome Tin base,
where the Chrome is not included in the recipe, but rather painted next to
the glaze on the test tile. It did in my tests of a couple of bases, and
this effect I have used on decorative pots, much to my aesthetic
satisfaction. I will do exactly the same with the red and purple stains I
have, to see if they fume. This is exciting.
Thank you to the people sending me the websites for Mason, etc. where I can
see what the stains are made of. The stains I buy are labled "universal
stains", which is a generic name given by the Danish supplier. I will try
to find out where they are manufactured. Had to buy 50lbs. of my Frit 169
to get it in the original sack with the original manufacturer lable on it
to find out it is made by Matthey. Hopefully, it will not come to that
with the stain, because then everyone on the list will know what they are
getting for Christmas this year..
I am thinking again, how lucky I am to have this list as a resource. Great.
regards from Alisa in Denmark
much more at ease now on the Chrome fuming issue I was having in little
head.
Ababi Sharon on tue 6 apr 04
Yes John this is my point of view about your book test test test and
even one time more test!!
Ababi Sharon
Glaze wizard
Kibbutz Shoval Israel
ababisha@shoval.org.il
http://ababi.active.co.il
http://www.matrix2000.co.nz/Matrix%20Demo/Ababi.htm
A fast link Ceramics forum in Hebrew:
http://www.botzpottery.co.il/kishurim.html
-----Original Message-----
From: John Hesselberth [mailto:john@frogpondpottery.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 5:14 PM
To: ababisha@shoval.org.il; Ceramics Art Discussion List
Subject: Re: Stains and stable glazes
Hi Ababi,
It would probably still be stable---but (you knew this was coming),
test, test, test.
John
On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 11:39 PM, Ababi wrote:
> By the way , John: Does the 0.4% of chrome is making the glaze (a
> stable one of
> course) a "foodless" glaze?
http://www.frogpondpottery.com
http://www.masteringglazes.com
Paul Lewing on tue 6 apr 04
on 4/6/04 11:03 AM, Alisa Liskin Clausen at alisa@CLAUSEN.MAIL.DK wrote:
> I have suddendly the light bulb burning that I can try some tests to see if
> stains fume. Ron wrote that that the Chrome will fume a Chrome Tin base,
I will do exactly the same with the red and purple stains I
> have, to see if they fume. This is exciting.
Alisa, since you are the Queen of Testing, how about you test another
hypothesis at the same time. The pink and purple stains are not the only
ones made with chrome. In fact, the element chromium was so named after the
Greek work for color "chromos", because it could be used to produce so many
different colors.
So in addition to the pink or purple stains, how about trying the same test
with some grey, green, yellow, and brown stains, many of which contain
chrome as well. It would be interesting to see if all, or any of them also
fume.
Paul Lewing, Seattle
Marilu on wed 7 apr 04
Hi everyone, I talked to Mason color technical department today about fuming
and having other stain based glazes fume each other.
They said that there is a chance their chrome/tin stains will
flash to a white based tin oxide glaze but not to any other
white glaze that is made without tin oxide. So if you had a
white glaze made with Zircopax there should definetely not
be any flashing. They also said their stains are less likely
to flash because they have already been fired to over 2000
degrees in the process of making them so most of the fuming
has already taken place.(unlike the raw chrome oxide we would
use in other recipes) The only reason chrome will fume
is because tin is present in another glaze and they are
trying to combine and be one again so when they do recombine
they make that pink flash. He also said that they fire a
lot of different chrome/tin stain based glazes together
in the same kiln firing and they do not change the colors
in each other at all. He also said that most likely if a
white base contains 5% to 10 % tin that is when it is most
likely to flash. He said tin isn't used much for color and
that more colors are achieved by using chrome then tin.
So subbing zircopax and just not using tin seems like a
good compromise I think. So I guess we test and hope for
the best. I looked at tiles representing zircopax and tin
(but only fired to earthen ware temperatures) and there is
a color difference between the chrome -it looks more olive
green with tin and more spring green with ziropax.
Rutile is more orange with tin and yellow with zircopax
and with copper tin is more teal and opaque then it is
with zircopax. (these differences are shown on page 43
of Ceramic glaze handbook by Mark Burleson) I am not
sure what the differences are between zircopax and tin
at cone 6 maybe some one can tell us? Zircopax is way less
expensive then tin here. I guess in Denmark it isn't? I guess
testing will tell the most. Hope this helped-Marilu
Alisa Liskin Clausen on wed 7 apr 04
>
>Alisa, since you are the Queen of Testing, how about you test another
>hypothesis at the same time. The pink and purple stains are not the only
>ones made with chrome. In fact, the element chromium was so named after
the
>Greek work for color "chromos", because it could be used to produce so many
>different colors.
>So in addition to the pink or purple stains, how about trying the same test
>with some grey, green, yellow, and brown stains, many of which contain
>chrome as well. It would be interesting to see if all, or any of them also
>fume.
>Paul Lewing, Seattle
'
Hi Paul,
Now that I have a list of many stain components from Duncan, Mason and some
others, I will choose the colors that contain Chrome (the ones I can get)
and test them with the MC6G Raspberry glaze, minus the Chrome. I recently
did this with Chrome again, and eeeks, no reds, nothing. I realize now
that I did not put the Chrome in the glaze, but I also omitted the Tin.
Have to keep sharp in the glaze lab.
So, now I am supercharged up to try this fuming business.
Of course will report back and post photos.
regards from Alisa von Test, in Denmark
| |
|
