Earl Brunner on sat 17 apr 04
So Tony, What REALLY got your knickers in a twist? I just spent a half hour looking over John's website. It's written in a thoughtful, well reasoned way. There was no fear mongering that I could see. If you had a potential customer who had actually read John's website and understood it, then there is no way that I can see where they would be scared off of "ALL" shinos, 'cuz like John says, there isn't anything there ABOUT shinos per say.
I'm curious, I don't now of a single shino glaze recipe that I have that has ANY chemical in them that could be considered harmful to the end user, even if the glaze wasn't stable by John and Ron's definition. To some extent the recipe of a glaze fired in a wood kiln is sort of pointless anyway since the fly ash is apt to affect the chemical "balance" of a glaze anyway.
clennell wrote:
Uh, John I got it from a potential customer that loved my work but your
website has scared her off ALL shinos. This was not something I, dreamed up!
She wants a lab test on all glazed pottery for crying out loud. A good book
becoming someones "The Good Book", complete with preachers the likes of
Billy Graham. This is cause and effect.
Lana Wilson told me that she loved reading my philosophy on pot making but
there is little money in that. The real money is in "how to" she told me. I
got news for Lana- the real money is in religion. Fear of glaze hell.
Though shall not kill. This is brilliant!
Also a brilliant and insightful post into this discussion from Kelly Mommy.
Be suspect of expert advice when that person has something to sell.
Darlin Janet and the Carrot Moonshine. where can I get me some?
When my dad was dying of cancer i made him carrot juice every day. I had
read Linus Pauling's book on vitamin c. 5 lbs of carrots in the juicer.
I'm sure dad would have perferred a bourbon.
cheers,
Tony
P.s Kelly- ya ought to sell some of your writing. Told ya that in Indy!
Throw in the wine recipe, and you'll have money for the kids boots. When you
and JK are on, you're both ON. That's as big a compliment as i give.
Tony and Sheila Clennell
Sour Cherry Pottery
4545 King Street
Beamsville, Ontario
CANADA L0R 1B1
http://www.sourcherrypottery.com
Tony and Sheila Clennell
Sour Cherry Pottery
4545 King Street
Beamsville, Ontario
CANADA L0R 1B1
http://www.sourcherrypottery.com
______________________________________________________________________________
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Earl Brunner
e-mail: brunv53@yahoo.com
clennell on sat 17 apr 04
>
> Uh, Tony would you mind pointing out to me where this is? If you're
> going to make accusations you might ought to get them straight.
> Furthermore I rarely, if ever, use the word toxic. I do use the words
> stable and durable frequently.
>
> I do have a glaze called Falls Creek Shino (aka Randy's Oatmeal Rust)
> on my site which was tested for lithium and it was below the detectable
> limit. That's probably the only place on my site the word shino is
> mentioned.
>
> As for the rest of your rant, if you want to have a rational discussion
> about it after you cool off, well, maybe. But I don't plan to comment
> further while you're in this state of mind.
>
> Regards,
>
> John
Uh, John I got it from a potential customer that loved my work but your
website has scared her off ALL shinos. This was not something I, dreamed up!
She wants a lab test on all glazed pottery for crying out loud. A good book
becoming someones "The Good Book", complete with preachers the likes of
Billy Graham. This is cause and effect.
Lana Wilson told me that she loved reading my philosophy on pot making but
there is little money in that. The real money is in "how to" she told me. I
got news for Lana- the real money is in religion. Fear of glaze hell.
Though shall not kill. This is brilliant!
Also a brilliant and insightful post into this discussion from Kelly Mommy.
Be suspect of expert advice when that person has something to sell.
Darlin Janet and the Carrot Moonshine. where can I get me some?
When my dad was dying of cancer i made him carrot juice every day. I had
read Linus Pauling's book on vitamin c. 5 lbs of carrots in the juicer.
I'm sure dad would have perferred a bourbon.
cheers,
Tony
P.s Kelly- ya ought to sell some of your writing. Told ya that in Indy!
Throw in the wine recipe, and you'll have money for the kids boots. When you
and JK are on, you're both ON. That's as big a compliment as i give.
Tony and Sheila Clennell
Sour Cherry Pottery
4545 King Street
Beamsville, Ontario
CANADA L0R 1B1
http://www.sourcherrypottery.com
Tony and Sheila Clennell
Sour Cherry Pottery
4545 King Street
Beamsville, Ontario
CANADA L0R 1B1
http://www.sourcherrypottery.com
Tom Sawyer on sun 18 apr 04
Had several patients that drank gallons of carrot juice, others that took
several coffee enemas a day and still others that did mind exercises that
involved "good cells" eating "bad cells". My favorite patient in 25 years as
an oncologist was an 80 year old grandmother who still rode a motorcycle and
decided when she had incurable cancer to go on a diet of champagne and
chocolate. Her kids and grandchildren called a family conference with me to
persuade grandmother to act more responsibly. She actually had a far
advanced cancer with only a few months to live - I sided with grandmother.
Tom Sawyer
tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of clennell
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 5:29 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: The Good Book
>
> Uh, Tony would you mind pointing out to me where this is? If you're
> going to make accusations you might ought to get them straight.
> Furthermore I rarely, if ever, use the word toxic. I do use the words
> stable and durable frequently.
>
> I do have a glaze called Falls Creek Shino (aka Randy's Oatmeal Rust)
> on my site which was tested for lithium and it was below the
> detectable limit. That's probably the only place on my site the word
> shino is mentioned.
>
> As for the rest of your rant, if you want to have a rational
> discussion about it after you cool off, well, maybe. But I don't plan
> to comment further while you're in this state of mind.
>
> Regards,
>
> John
Uh, John I got it from a potential customer that loved my work but your
website has scared her off ALL shinos. This was not something I, dreamed up!
She wants a lab test on all glazed pottery for crying out loud. A good book
becoming someones "The Good Book", complete with preachers the likes of
Billy Graham. This is cause and effect.
Lana Wilson told me that she loved reading my philosophy on pot making but
there is little money in that. The real money is in "how to" she told me. I
got news for Lana- the real money is in religion. Fear of glaze hell.
Though shall not kill. This is brilliant!
Also a brilliant and insightful post into this discussion from Kelly Mommy.
Be suspect of expert advice when that person has something to sell.
Darlin Janet and the Carrot Moonshine. where can I get me some?
When my dad was dying of cancer i made him carrot juice every day. I had
read Linus Pauling's book on vitamin c. 5 lbs of carrots in the juicer.
I'm sure dad would have perferred a bourbon.
cheers,
Tony
P.s Kelly- ya ought to sell some of your writing. Told ya that in Indy!
Throw in the wine recipe, and you'll have money for the kids boots. When you
and JK are on, you're both ON. That's as big a compliment as i give.
Tony and Sheila Clennell
Sour Cherry Pottery
4545 King Street
Beamsville, Ontario
CANADA L0R 1B1
http://www.sourcherrypottery.com
Tony and Sheila Clennell
Sour Cherry Pottery
4545 King Street
Beamsville, Ontario
CANADA L0R 1B1
http://www.sourcherrypottery.com
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
John Hesselberth on sun 18 apr 04
On Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 06:28 PM, clennell wrote:
> John I got it from a potential customer that loved my work but your
> website has scared her off ALL shinos. This was not something I,
> dreamed up!
> She wants a lab test on all glazed pottery for crying out loud. A good
> book
> becoming someones "The Good Book", complete with preachers the likes of
> Billy Graham. This is cause and effect.
Hi Tony,
If someone is getting that paranoid from my writings or from what Ron
and I have put in the book, that is her problem--not mine or yours. I
don't accept guilt trips of that type--especially not in view of the
hundreds of positive comments Ron and I have received over the last
couple years. I don't think anyone who has read my/our writings
carefully could reasonably call it scare-mongering.
I do, however, continually urge people to make sure their glazes are
appropriate for their intended use. That's because I have seen a few
too many glazes that are not suitable for their intended use, and I
feel those potters give all of us a bad name. I also continually see
glazes in the published literature that are very questionable, at best,
for use on functional pottery/food surfaces with no cautions given that
the glaze might not be suitable for that use. In fact it is often shown
on a functional piece.
It is also a concern of mine that virtually nowhere in the educational
system is glaze chemistry being taught in a way that will help potters
know how a given glaze might perform.
I doubt that either of us will convince the other of who is 'more
right' here so it is probably time to agree to disagree and move on.
Regards,
John
http://www.frogpondpottery.com
http://www.masteringglazes.com
John Baymore on sun 18 apr 04
I also continually see glazes in the published literature that are very
questionable, at best,
for use on functional pottery/food surfaces with no cautions given that
the glaze might not be suitable for that use. In fact it is often shown
on a functional piece.
John,
Me too.
=46rom what I have seen in the various mags..... there is no significant
practice of a "professional peer review board" perusing articles for
accuracy of content and appropriate research before they are published as=
is done in many professional circles. A pitty really. You are dead on
with that observation John.... tons of "less than optimum" receipes and
other pieces of information keep showing up "in print". In print with th=
e
implied "blessings" of the "great media god". And a powerful "god" (s)he=
is!
The power of the print media (and web media) is pretty amazing........ on=
ly
outdone by TV and movie media. =
It is also amazing how people can take small parts of the information
presented =
and then make connections and draw conclusions that the authors/writers
never intended .
Makes it so important to be absolutely precise in what one actually pu=
ts
"in print". You almost have to write with an eye toward what can be
misconstrued, exaggerated, and distorted . Which ain't no fun.
In fact, this aspect parallels the discussion happening about "religion"
and how it can sometimes be used (inadvertantly or deliberately) for
purposes and in ways not ever really intended in the core system.
I think some of Tony's concerns here kind of revolve around the game of
"Telephone". You know .... you get a buch of people in a line and the
leader whispers something to the first person. Then that person whispers=
it to the next ...and so on down the line.
By the time it gets to the N-th person.... the information bears little=
resemblance to the original information . But each person truly
beleives that he/she has relayed the information exactly.
I think that is a bit true of the whole toxicology and glaze stability
communication issue. It has a danger of getting =
the "information" into the hands of "end users" that get only a SMALL pa=
rt
of the story. The part they get is the "scare" part.... not all the VERY=
PERTINENT DETAILS that pertain to the scary stuff. All that "technical
stuff" is often too hard to understand and requires effort.... but "toxic=
"
and "danger" and "poison" and "lawsuit" are easy to "grab on to". Hence
Tony's "test all glazes cause they could be dangerous" pottery buying lad=
y.
So the information on this stuff is certainly very important.... and you
and Ron have done a great service to the field through your research and
your wonderful book ...... but it still can be a very sharp double-edged
sword.
It is also a concern of mine that virtually nowhere in the educational
system is glaze chemistry being taught in a way that will help potters
know how a given glaze might perform.
Ummmmmm... John.... we "go back a bit".... so I am sure you already know
this but.... I want to mention here that I've been teaching ceramic
materials classes based on =
mol calc since "god was a kid" ....... first at Massart
, then at BU's Program in Artisanry, and now at New Hampshire Institute o=
f
Art. Standard in those courses since the late 70's was significant
information on ceramic toxicology. Within the toxicology info, glaze
stability isses have been and continue to be addressed .......... as well=
as at many other opportunities.
So don't write off the whole educational system just yet . We've go=
t
some graduates out there... so maybe they will start a bit of a change.
It is true that too few programs even teach molecular calculation
at all .... the core basis for discussing much of this....... if the
research I did for Ron R., Paul L. and my 1999 NCECA presentation at
Charlotte is still at all valid. And I unfortunately suspect it is. Yo=
u
were there ... so you know I formally put the "challenge" out there to th=
e
academic world in my part of the presentaion to "change that fact".
Unfortunately .... from talking to students at various schools.........=
I
don't think much has happened . =
I think it is very important to have the solid technical background and
understanding of your materials ........ so that you can then "let it go"=
and work intuitively. Hamada Shoji was my "model" for taking this
approach.
=
best,
.......................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086-5812 USA
JBaymore@compuserve.com
http://www.JohnBaymore.com
603-654-2752 (studio)
800-900-1110 (studio)
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop: August 2004 Date=
s:
TBA"
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