Suzanne Kraman on mon 19 apr 04
For your information DAVID...yes indeedy you can become infected from Mad Cow
Bone Ash...it is not a bacteria or a virus...it is a protein that can turn to
ash and still get yah......that is exactly why it is so dangerous......and so
are pots made from glaze that is not safe to be on them......If a teapot has
an unsafe glaze where it is in contact with the tea.... it will get into the
tea which is acidic..(most food is on the acid side you know)....you just dont
know how you sound......you, tony and lee.....you sound like fools with your
recent rants on the Clayart listserv......I dont care if you are mad at
me......be mad cow at me all you like.......you'll still be dead from the Mad Cow
disease if you eat any tainted meat or even ash .......and if you are using
unsafe glazes to line cups, teapots, pitchers, casseroles......well then you are
giving your customer a little push in that direction too......y'all
three......grow up for goodness sakes...Try try.......please try to learn what
RESPONSIBLE means......Ranting again.....and loving it....Suzanne Kraman
ClayWaves Studio
Could Mad Cow Disease Already be Killing Thousands of Americans Every Year?
Lori Leary on mon 19 apr 04
Gosh, I think someone needs a nap.....
How about let's avoid the name calling....We've gotten along for many
years on Clayart without it.
You should be capable of making your point without it.....your input
certainly is likely to be more respected.
Lori L.
PA, USA
Suzanne Kraman wrote:
>For your information DAVID...yes indeedy you can become infected from Mad Cow
>Bone Ash...it is not a bacteria or a virus...it is a protein that can turn to
>ash and still get yah......that is exactly why it is so dangerous......and so
>are pots made from glaze that is not safe to be on them......If a teapot has
>an unsafe glaze where it is in contact with the tea.... it will get into the
>tea which is acidic..(most food is on the acid side you know)....you just dont
>know how you sound......you, tony and lee.....you sound like fools with your
>recent rants on the Clayart listserv......I dont care if you are mad at
>me......be mad cow at me all you like.......you'll still be dead from the Mad Cow
>disease if you eat any tainted meat or even ash .......and if you are using
>unsafe glazes to line cups, teapots, pitchers, casseroles......well then you are
>giving your customer a little push in that direction too......y'all
>three......grow up for goodness sakes...Try try.......please try to learn what
>RESPONSIBLE means......Ranting again.....and loving it....Suzanne Kraman
>
> ClayWaves Studio
>
>Could Mad Cow Disease Already be Killing Thousands of Americans Every Year?
>
>
>
>
Tom Sawyer on tue 20 apr 04
Lori,
I was interested in your comments about Mad Cow ash and infectivity. The
following site http://www.mad-cow.org/mar98_news.html states that
"Sterilization under pressure at 133 C, 20 minuttes at 3 bars steam
pressure of particles smaller than 50 mm (133/20/3) has shown to
reduce the infectivity of the BSE/TSE-agent significantly. The reduction
is 6-9 powers of ten." This suggests that sterization is highly effective.
I recognize that we don't fire under 3 atmospheres of pressure but we do
fire up to 2300 F at cone 10. My impression is that protein denaturalization
occurs at much lower temperatures. I am just suspicious of the claim that
the prions/proteins would remain intact at this high temperature. Now don't
get me wrong, I'm not advocating using bone ash from Mad Cows but I am
interested in the hard science to back up such claims as bone ash used in
glaze making from Mad Cows retains its viability even after firing to 2300
F; maybe and maybe not. I'm not that interested in spending days trying to
get the answer so I'm not going on the web to do research. I think this is
what Tony had in mind when this discussion began and reference to
"religion". Anyway just an observation. Interestingly, I just pulled a nice
test result out of the kiln using "bone ash" Ah.... But synthetic ash.
Tom Sawyer
tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Lori Leary
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 5:13 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: RE glaze Religion and your stupidity
Gosh, I think someone needs a nap.....
How about let's avoid the name calling....We've gotten along for many years
on Clayart without it.
You should be capable of making your point without it.....your input
certainly is likely to be more respected.
Lori L.
PA, USA
Suzanne Kraman wrote:
>For your information DAVID...yes indeedy you can become infected from
>Mad Cow Bone Ash...it is not a bacteria or a virus...it is a protein
>that can turn to ash and still get yah......that is exactly why it is
>so dangerous......and so are pots made from glaze that is not safe to
>be on them......If a teapot has an unsafe glaze where it is in contact
>with the tea.... it will get into the tea which is acidic..(most food
>is on the acid side you know)....you just dont know how you
>sound......you, tony and lee.....you sound like fools with your recent
>rants on the Clayart listserv......I dont care if you are mad at
>me......be mad cow at me all you like.......you'll still be dead from
>the Mad Cow disease if you eat any tainted meat or even ash .......and
>if you are using unsafe glazes to line cups, teapots, pitchers,
>casseroles......well then you are giving your customer a little push in
>that direction too......y'all three......grow up for goodness
>sakes...Try try.......please try to learn what RESPONSIBLE
>means......Ranting again.....and loving it....Suzanne Kraman
>
> > HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/claymaven/ClayWavesStudio.html">ClayWave
> s Studio
>
>Could
>Mad Cow Disease Already be Killing Thousands of Americans Every
>Year?
>
>
>
>
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Suzanne Kraman on tue 20 apr 04
Craig......Ive been a potter for over 30 years.......making my living
potting.....built and fired most kilns imaginable.....salt.....wood......raku.....pit
fire....gas downdraft stoneware......mixed my own glazes for 30 years and are
well aware of what poisions we are involved with and how much damage it can
cause.......I recommend you get a hair analysis for yourself......it will tell
you what is in your system now that could possibly be chelated for better
health......Are you familiar with David Shaner and what happened to him with
Manganese poisioning....He was a bright light in the potting community.....very
talented and very giving to others of his knowledge.....Then of course there is
Woo Yellow with vanadium pentoxide that mugs were made of and sold over the
years.......wanna little sip in one of those mugs......not me.....We should be
grateful that there are now cheaper processes out there for testing.....and that
we are now gathering knowledge......If you are making a
mug......teapot......etc.....you are the responsible party......if you are making the glazes the
buck truly does stop with you......you get sued......but that is the least of
it.......because you have the ability to cause damage to others......My mentor
working at cone 2 made teapots etc with a copper glaze inside these vessels
that did leach so badly that the pots lost their color.....sold it to friends
with kids.......Another potter friend was making and selling cone 06 work with a
lead fritted glaze that said it was dinnerware safe.....and wondering just how
much of it was.....fortunately for him he was using a commercial glaze so the
buck stops with the company and not the potter.....however the customer
thinks dinnerware safe means no ingredient that will harm them and they will be
thinking that there is no lead in it.....ah the magic of words....
You can make as many snappy comments as you like about me.......not a
bother to me..... but it will not change the dynamics here.......bad glaze
injures people.....If Tony's Shino is leaching great amounts of lithium and the
customer finds out, then he can be sued......but right now Tony probably has
not tested the glaze and does not know himself if his customers are serving up
just tea......but it is easy and economical to find out......and that is what
he should be doing.......also the teapots can have a liner glaze that is
safe......so Tony has options......instead of taking advantage of the testing
lab.....you, Tony, and others have decided to bully your way around on this
listserv.....anyone with any real knowledge and real sense.....you know, common sense,
looks at your prattlings and sees how unbelieveably foolish they are....and I
am tired of it frankly......I remember back about a year ago......the list
went on ad nausium over a penis pot.......not one week......no.....not one
month.....it just wouldnt quit.....so easy for me I just stopped reading the
digests.....I never like to shoot my mouth off and complain over various
foolishness.....but your rants are hurting good research......and confusing people who
are new to Clay.....
And now about my diet......I have been a vegetarian at times......I
eat most anything right now and probably will eat mostly tofu for protein but
know that vegetables as well can probably be tainted with this killing prion
because they will put it in fertilizers for sure.......and like aids it takes a
good while to find out you have the disease.....and also like aids the powers
that be are dragging their feet so a small problem will become
enormous.....That is how we do things in this country....and it is exactly the same mentality
that is exhibited lately on the listserv.......
And how does a sentence like......"Ive been making my pots this way
forever and thats the way its going to be....and dont rock my boat because my
customer is wanting to be smarter than me"....Exactly how is this sentence a
helpful part of an open discussion on any topic.....It is not Tony's exact
words....but it is his sentiment....and it is not helpful to any
discussion......for goodness sakes its not helpful for Tony and his perhaps lithium tea
drinking.....or does he just make them and not use them?? Please do not get me
wrong....Tony's work is beautiful.....his knowledge of heat and transmutation is
there.......and so is his soulfulness.....the teapots in particular are
awsome.....so much of the work is right and right on.....and I would love to own
one and would purchase one just the way they are made right now......but to
drink tea out of one.....that IS the question right before us.... And please to
beg your forgivness that I am impatient......being too old and too tired and way
too sad about selfish prattlings on a very serious subject.
Suzanne Kraman
RESPONSE FROM CRAIG DUNN CLARK
<<<<coming
off like some sort of rabid loon. I don't know if that is your intention or
not but it is certainly what you sound like. Are you by any chance a member
of the vegetarian hezzbolah commonly know as the "vegans." If you are you
might go and check what it is that they seem to promote. Perhaps you just
missed your meds. I really don't know.
When discussing glaze safety with others who have vast stores of
knowledge and experience at their disposal you might try and define what you
are saying rather than launching into an invective laced diatribe. For
example, if you actually wanted to contribute to the discussion and get
folks who are thinking about and trying to practice "glaze safety" then you
might go that extra coupla key strokes and specifically state what you mean.
What is the accepatale level of leaching for copper in a glaze that will be
in contact with food from your perspective? What criteria have you designed
to determine the level of leaching? How many different clay bodies have you
tested a "safe" glaze on, have you doncumented your tests, have you had
laboratory analysis done? Have you consulted or spoken with any
toxicologists, etc., who have first hand knowledge about what levels of what
elements are "safe" for the human system etc.? These are all wonderful
topics of discussion and open questions that are important to the potting
community in my opinion.
Craig Dunn Clark<<<<<
Lori Leary on tue 20 apr 04
Hi Tom,
Just wanted to let you know I was replying to the original post by
Suzanne Kramer...I'm well known for scolding people who are ill mannered
on Clayart.
I would never write a post like the original. I would be sure to back
up any assertions with solid facts from a reputable source. And I would
be much nicer about it.
Best Wishes,
Lori L.
Mountain Top PA
USA
Tom Sawyer wrote:
>Lori,
>
>I was interested in your comments about Mad Cow ash and infectivity. The
>following site http://www.mad-cow.org/mar98_news.html states that
>"Sterilization under pressure at 133 C, 20 minuttes at 3 bars steam
>pressure of particles smaller than 50 mm (133/20/3) has shown to
>reduce the infectivity of the BSE/TSE-agent significantly. The reduction
>is 6-9 powers of ten." This suggests that sterization is highly effective.
>I recognize that we don't fire under 3 atmospheres of pressure but we do
>fire up to 2300 F at cone 10. My impression is that protein denaturalization
>occurs at much lower temperatures. I am just suspicious of the claim that
>the prions/proteins would remain intact at this high temperature. Now don't
>get me wrong, I'm not advocating using bone ash from Mad Cows but I am
>interested in the hard science to back up such claims as bone ash used in
>glaze making from Mad Cows retains its viability even after firing to 2300
>F; maybe and maybe not. I'm not that interested in spending days trying to
>get the answer so I'm not going on the web to do research. I think this is
>what Tony had in mind when this discussion began and reference to
>"religion". Anyway just an observation. Interestingly, I just pulled a nice
>test result out of the kiln using "bone ash" Ah.... But synthetic ash.
>
>Tom Sawyer
>tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
Lee Love on tue 20 apr 04
Suzanne Kraman wrote:
>For your information DAVID...yes indeedy you can become infected from Mad Cow
>Bone Ash...it is not a bacteria or a virus...
>
Hi Suzanne,
We covered this earlier here on ClayArt so I am sure David
remembers. You can look up prions in the ClayArt archives. ( See my
post here: http://www.potters.org/subject71536.htm , supporting Paul
Herman's comments on bone ash)
It is a very good example about how knowledge can and should reduce
fear. The temperature that destroys prions is easily achieved in the
calcinating.
http://w3.aces.uiuc.edu/AnSci/BSE/Prion_general.htm
> Some loss of infectivity occurs at temperatures above 100°C
> But 30 to 60 minutes at more than 130°C is needed for inactivation
http://w3.aces.uiuc.edu/AnSci/BSE/Prion_general.htm
Wendell Berry speaks about how technocrats in our society
control us, by making us Dependant upon their expertise in his book,
_Standing By Words._ Don't depend on the experts but like David
encourages us, take it upon yourself to know for yourself:
> "the last year or so we at clay art have a few experts who answer all the
> questions for an increasingly passive "spoon feed me" group who would
> gain
> much, and contribute much if they did a little experimenting first and
> then
> asked for help after shareing what they had already acomplished or failed
> to. how much initive does it take to try a new material in an old
> glaze recipe?
> Ponder three minutes , whip up a 100g batch in seven and test in the
> next
> fire. educate your self, learn to trust your self as you acomplish
> something personaly meaningful. Trust your self, fear less, what
> could possible go irreparably wrong? unless you do something obviously
> stupiid like opening a front loading gas kiln at cone ten with out
> protective gear. trust this, you will ignite. "
--
Lee
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
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