jklay on sat 24 apr 04
Anyone Out There,
I have been involved with applying a porcelain based slip to =
porcelain largely to create textural affects. I would like to be able =
to apply slip much like, if not just like, cake decorators apply icing =
to cake. To this point I can't get the slip to "stand up" to my =
satisfaction. Any ideas out there? =20
Thanks,
John Kudlacek
Topeka
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logan johnson on sat 24 apr 04
Hi Jay,
I use that method all the time but I use stoneware clay . I don't THINK there will be much difference between the two clays using this method. Make your slip thicker & use a hand mixer to make your slip "baby butt" smooth. It will go through the tip easier. I also exchange a little cider vinegar for the water. I'm not sure if it does any good but it makes me feel a little better. I also use a wet, small triangular make up sponge when everything is just dry enough to touch without messing it up to smooth out any imperections. Or a wet paint brush works well for me & it helps to seal the slip to the surface .
Hope any of this helps!
Have a good one!
Logan
jklay wrote:
Anyone Out There,
I have been involved with applying a porcelain based slip to porcelain largely to create textural affects. I would like to be able to apply slip much like, if not just like, cake decorators apply icing to cake. To this point I can't get the slip to "stand up" to my satisfaction. Any ideas out there?
Thanks,
John Kudlacek
Topeka
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"Carpe Argillam!!"
Christine Caswell on sat 24 apr 04
I once attended a symposium where Deborah Bedwell, director of Baltimore
Clayworks, was one of the demonstrators. She mixed something with her
porcelain slip to get it to do exactly what you are talking about. I think
it was some sort of additive from a clay supply company but the main
ingredient was acrylic paint- as I recall she seemed to think that you might
be able to use acrylic medium to get the same results. It dries VERY hard
and must be stored very tightly sealed to prevent ending up with a brick.
Her contact info can be found on Baltimore Clayworks' web page.
Also, have you tired letting the slip become very thick? I have had pretty
good luck just letting slip dry to a frosting like consistency. But I
suppose it depends on just how much you need this slip to "stand up."
Hope this helps. Good luck.
-Christine Caswell
Scarborough, ME
wayneinkeywest on sat 24 apr 04
John:
If it won't "stand up to your satisfaction"
do you mean when firing, or when applying?
If you're attempting to "squirt" it out of, for
example, a cake decorator tip, you'll need it to
be dry to the point of being like a thick mousse,
or a whipped cream cheese. Thicker than
you use for score and slip. Thick enough
where you would consider using a palette knife on it
to put it on. If you're trying for real thickness in your texture,
over 1/4 inch say, you may need to apply
more than one layer and build it up.
If it won't stand up in your firing, you may
need to alter the formula of the body to include
grog, or fire to a lower cone...
something that will allow it to keep it's "backbone".
Porcelain is fun, ain't it? :>)
Hope that helps,
Wayne Seidl
Key West, Florida, USA
North America, Terra
Latitude 81.8, Longitude 24.4
Elevation 3.1 feet (1m)
----- Original Message -----
From: "jklay"
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 1:09 PM
Subject: Cake Decorator Slip
Anyone Out There,
I have been involved with applying a porcelain based slip to
porcelain largely to create textural affects. I would like to be
able to apply slip much like, if not just like, cake decorators
apply icing to cake. To this point I can't get the slip to "stand
up" to my satisfaction. Any ideas out there?
Thanks,
John Kudlacek
Topeka
Tig Dupre on sun 25 apr 04
John,
-----------------------------<>---------------------------
I would like to be able to apply slip much like, if not just like,
cake decorators apply icing to cake. To this point I can't get
the slip to "stand up" to my satisfaction.
-----------------------------<>---------------------------
What you might like to try is the recipe from the University of Florida:
G-String Slap-On Slick Thick Slip
Nepheline Syenite 20
Feldspar 20 (Any favorite will do. I used Custer.)
Silica 20
Ball clay 40 (I used OM4.)
-----------------------------------
100
Mix ingredients dry and sift in an equal volume of water. Allow ingredients to quench, then mix slowly. Allow to sit for about a week. Pour off any excess water, sieve through 30 mesh. It will be thick! Let it sit even more for even thicker slip.
I slap it on with a palette knife, my hand, a trowel, a spatula, a credit card, a flexible rib... Your cake decorator will probably love this stuff! :o)
Good luck!
Tig Dupre
in GLORIOUS Port Orchard, Washington, USofA
Paul Lewing on sun 25 apr 04
on 4/24/04 11:11 PM, William Sheppard at patyoungceramicarts@HOTMAIL.COM
wrote:
> Is SLIP still the answer?
Yes. I used to do this when I was in grad school. This was before the days
of paperclay, but that sounds like a great idea to me. The whole trick in
this is balancing the shrinkage of the slip to the shrinkage of the clay.
Usually the best slip for any clay body is that clay body. If you're using
a white clay body, all you need to do is color it. If you're not using a
white body, it gets more complicated, if you want colored slips.
Just remember that the clay has already shrunk a bit when you apply the
slip, and that colorants do not shrink when they dry. So you may need to
adjust the shrinkage a bit to keep something as thick as a rose on there.
But you can definitely do it.
Paul Lewing, Seattle
William Sheppard on sun 25 apr 04
Has anyone ever used cake decorating tools to make CLAY ROSES like the
frosting ones you see on cakes?
I have always made my roses and other ceramic flowers by cutting out
the individual petals with the little petal cutters that are availabe. I
then put the clay petals togeather by hand. This is so slow. While
watching a cake decorator make roses I just figured there had to be a way
to make clay soft enough to get through the decorating tip and stiff enough
to hold its shape as the rose is being formed.
The petals will have to hold their shape as the rose is being formed.
Is SLIP still the answer? If so, I could make a lot of roses in a hurry. I
model with low fire earthenware clay.
William A. Sheppard V
Spring just rushed by us here in Florida.
www.patyoungceramicarts.com
Bonnie/Jeremy Hellman on sun 25 apr 04
Hi Pat,
I haven't done it in clay, but I've made frosting roses. Once you figure
out
HOW to do it, you need to be sure that your material (icing or clay) is the
appropriate consistency.
I would think that since you need stiff icing (which is nowhere as stiff as
stiff clay ), you could use clay that is soft enough to slip trail, but
hard enough to hold its shape. You've got to be able to squeeze the icing
or clay out of the icing tip, but it has to stay in that shape without
slumping.
The methodology to making roses from icing is to use a decorating tip (the
shape is called a petal tip or a rose tip) designed for the purpose. The
shape has a skinny opening, slightly wider at one end. The general shape
of the petal tip can be seen at: http://www.wilton.com/wiltonos/ if you
follow the links to tips and go to the one that looks like it has a plastic
set of throwing tips for making roses. (Sorry to be so vague, but you can't
link to the specific page.) The left-most tip shows the shape.
To making an icing rose, you use a tiny "turntable" (called a flower nail)
which is turned in your other hand. A quick internet search turned up the
following site with instructions and photos and a short video:
http://www.wilton.com/decorating/basic/roses.cfm
The last time I shopped for cake decorating tools was about 25 years ago,
and looking at the Wilton web site, I am amazed at how many more "tools" on
the Wilton web site there are to buy than when I first got into it. I was
reminded of comments from people who have been working in clay for over 25
years- that they were able to make great pots without all the "tools"
available today.
As with so many skills, it's much easier when you see it done, and have
someone explain what they're doing. Then you try it with the instructor
watching. To continue my analogy, you CAN learn to throw a pot on the wheel
from watching a video, but most of us find it faster and easier to learn
from personal instruction. My husband (who does not make iciing roses or
work with clay) watched this video and said he didn't have much of a clue
what they were talking about. I said that I thought it was a good
explanation for someone who already knows how to do it.
Bonnie
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "William Sheppard"
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 3:11 AM
> > Subject: Cake Decorator Slip
> >
> >
> > > Has anyone ever used cake decorating tools to make CLAY ROSES like the
> > > frosting ones you see on cakes?
> > >
> > > I have always made my roses and other ceramic flowers by cutting
> out
> > > the individual petals with the little petal cutters that are availabe.
> I
> > > then put the clay petals togeather by hand. This is so slow. While
> > > watching a cake decorator make roses I just figured there had to be a
> way
> > > to make clay soft enough to get through the decorating tip and stiff
> > enough
> > > to hold its shape as the rose is being formed.
> > >
> > > The petals will have to hold their shape as the rose is being
> formed.
> > > Is SLIP still the answer? If so, I could make a lot of roses in a
> hurry.
> > I
> > > model with low fire earthenware clay.
> > >
> > >
> > > William A. Sheppard V
> > > Spring just rushed by us here in Florida.
> > > www.patyoungceramicarts.com
> > >
> > >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> > __
> > > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> > >
> > > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> > >
> > > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> > melpots@pclink.com.
> >
>
Annie Evans on sun 25 apr 04
I make a joining mixture out of dried clay, vinegar and toilet paper -
blended to a frothy texture - the texture stays the same until I have used
it all up - weeks, even. I keep it in a lidded jar. I build additions
using this "Blender Mender" and it holds its shape.
I think this would work for you - it's really paperclay at this point but
there is no visible difference after firing.
Annie Evans
Culling on sun 25 apr 04
Hi John
I've done a bit of this myself - mostly as a student and still decorate with
slip alot. Make up a new batch of slip with a couple of drops of
deflocculant - I use dispex and then only enough water to get wipped cream
consistancy slip. Then it's just a matter of practice in application. Just
remember - if you do apply to a pulled up peak they are razor sharp when
fired!!! so I soften them a bit when green with a sponge or you or someone
else can slice and dice just touching them :(
Steph
>To this point I can't get the slip to "stand up" to my satisfaction. Any
ideas out there?
Thanks,
John Kudlacek
Topeka<
Ivor and Olive Lewis on sun 25 apr 04
Dear John Kudlaceck,
I suggest you research a porcelain technique which goes by the name of
P=E2te-sur-P=E2te.
A second think to do is to get a good book about cake decoration with
well documented illustrative instructions and use their techniques
with clay with is as easy to extrude as Cake Fondant paste. Use Cake
decorators tools and methods. use plain water or a deflocculating
fluid to attach the parts to the main body of your work.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
William Sheppard on sun 25 apr 04
Annie Evans,
Thanks for the info about the home-made paper clay slip that you
sugested I use to make ROSES out of slip with cake decorating tools.
What PERCENTAGES of tissue paper, vinegar and clay slip do you use in
your mix? Approx.
How much BLENDING do you do? Do you whip the mixture with an electric
mixer.
If this idea works it will just be another example of combining various
art form working methods. (Soon I will try blowing into a clay vessle to
make it expand like the glass blowers do. Ha, HA.)
William A. Sheppard V.
Swimming pool water almost warm enough to get wet in, here in Florida.
www.patyoungceramicarts.com
claybair on sun 25 apr 04
I'd use Lana Wilson's Magic Water
instead of the vinegar.
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Annie Evans
I make a joining mixture out of dried clay, vinegar and toilet paper -
blended to a frothy texture - the texture stays the same until I have used
it all up - weeks, even. I keep it in a lidded jar. I build additions
using this "Blender Mender" and it holds its shape.
I think this would work for you - it's really paperclay at this point but
there is no visible difference after firing.
Annie Evans
Donald Burroughs on sun 25 apr 04
It sound to me that using the slip which accumulates at the top
of the pail near the rim would work like cake decorator icing. This
slip usually has this texture because the water has evaporated or
has run off to the bottom of the pail. Thixotropic slip might also
the trick (see Nelson).
Don
wayneinkeywest on mon 26 apr 04
Fred:
Why couldn't we just mix it with papier mache (sp),
such as is done with paperclay now?
Just a (much) more moist variety of paper,
which would burn out in the firing anyhow?
Just a thought.
Wayne Seidl
Key West, Florida, USA
North America, Terra
Latitude 81.8, Longitude 24.4
Elevation 3.1 feet (1m)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fredrick Paget"
> I have read all the responses to this and can't help wondering if
> there isn't a better way?
> What we need is a thixotropic mix of clay and something else.
snip
> Fred
> --
> From Fred Paget, Marin County, California, USA
> fredrick@well.com
>
>
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> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
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> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
S. Morris on mon 26 apr 04
John,
I don't know if anyone else caught this at this years
NCECA, but Lisa Oar was one of the demonstrators, and
she was using thick slip to make what she called
"sprigs" on the sides of her pots, and all she did to
make her slip was add a teaspoon or less of sodium
silicate or darvan to defloculate her clay body, and
make it slip like....you might want to try the nceca
web site, they might have posted some recipies...
Some students here at the hartford art school tried it
when we got back from the conference,we made our own
make shift decorating bags out of freezer bags and
made "sprigs" of our own, worked great.
Goodluck,
Steph M.
-----------------------------------------------------
> affects. I would like to be able to apply slip
> much like, if not just like, cake decorators apply
> icing to cake. To this point I can't get the slip to
> "stand up" to my satisfaction. Any ideas out there?
>
> Thanks,
> John Kudlacek
> Topeka
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Annie Evans on mon 26 apr 04
Well, being artsy, I don't follow exact procedures, but
Dry out clay bits, put in large ziplock bag and pound a bit with a hammer.
You want the pieces fairly small to make the blender's job easier.
Fill the bottom third of the blender with the clay.
Pour in vinegar to cover the clay. Blend, stop, stir. Blend, stop, stir.
It takes a while to get all the clay dissolved. If it gets too thick, add
more vinegar.
Then tear toilet paper into, say, one-inch square shapes and drop them into
the blender. I'm thinking maybe 8 feet of toilet paper. Blend nonstop for
a couple of minutes. Make sure all the tp is dissolved.
Keep in a closed container. It stays frothy and it's the only thing I use
for joining.
I've also found that I can put a layer on a dried piece, let it dry, then
wet my finger and smooth it out. Sometimes this creates a crackle effect
which I like.
Annie of Blender Mender
Ivor and Olive Lewis on mon 26 apr 04
Dear William Sheppard,
I suggest you use a fine porcelain clay to make a deflocculated slip
and slowly evaporate excess water until you get the consistency of
thickened cream. Then using an icing bag and, for want of a better
word what I would call a "Golf TeeTool" which is like a round disc on
the end of a length of dowel, extrude flat sections of the paste
through a wide flat nozzle onto the disc, with a two dimensional
curving motion of your wrist and a slight twirl of the tool, building
from the inside to the outside. In the end its just a matter of skill
and knowledge.
You may have to join a Domestic Science or Cake Decoration Class to
get the finer points though they are all illustrated in Cake
Decoration Books.
Have fun,
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia----- Original Message -----
Susan Giddings on mon 26 apr 04
John,
I have never done cake decorating and really can't say from experience what
worked for me. But I have done some decorating that meant rather thick
"gloppy" applications with clay. For this I use deflocculated slip. If I
were going to do cake decporating type of design with clay, I would use
defloc slip.
The rationale for using this is that a defloc slip requires far less water
and holds its shape. (Plus it also joins well!). It can be very thick and
just "glopped" on in a way I would think very similar to cake decorating. It
should be about the same consistancy as frosting.
Many have already indicated that slip is best when made from the same clay
body. I have really just always used slip I make from the clay body being
used so although I know other "generic" slips can be made and used, I have
never done it that way.
Also, I have frequently used Mason stains in them and they work just fine.
Never had it chip or flake off.
It is very easy to make. I know there are directions in the archives. I can
send you directions if you need - just let me know.
S
------------------
Susan Giddings
"There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot, but there are
others who, thanks to their art and intelligence, transform a yellow spot
into the sun." — Pablo Picasso
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Fredrick Paget on mon 26 apr 04
I have read all the responses to this and can't help wondering if
there isn't a better way?
What we need is a thixotropic mix of clay and something else.
Cabosil comes to mind as that is the thixotropic additive of choice
in epoxy formulation. Unfortunatly it doesn't work very well in
aqueous solutions.
Where is it written that the clay has to be in an aqueous mix? Could
we mix powdered clay body with butter for example and get something
that would fire solid? Somebody ought to try it and report. Cake
icing uses butter to make the mix thixotropic.
If butter is too messy maybe lavender oil and cabosil? Or how about
uncolored paint from a store where they add color of your choice.
I know these are going to stink when fired but when did that ever
stop a potter?
Fred
--
From Fred Paget, Marin County, California, USA
fredrick@well.com
William Sheppard on tue 27 apr 04
Who would have thought such a simple question would have created such a
grand responce. "Can you make clay roses out of slip using cake decorating
tools?
Thanks to all of you who given me sugestions about paper clay,
defoculated slip, Wilton cake decorating info (especially the Wilton video
on making roses out of icing) and many other creative ideas and
encouragement.
I ran excitedly to tell the wife all about these sugestions. As the
practical muse of the family, her first question was "And how many orders
do you have for pieces with ROSES attached?". Me - "Well none of them
right now need any roses, but I need to be prepared for an order like the
one I got 4 years ago when all 45 pieces had to have a rose on each one of
them, right?".
Get the drift? It may be a while before I get to put all of your
advice and information into practice, but when I do, I will be sure to
report on my efforts. If any one else gets to it before me, share you
efforts.
William A. Sheppard V.
Clay roses will have no carbs or calories, right?
www.patyoungceramicarts.com
Ivor and Olive Lewis on tue 27 apr 04
Great Ideas Fred.
But I would like to know what holds the clay to the pot and to itself
when the medium burns away. I think the big problem is knowing what
holds clay together when the water dries away, regardless of if it is
pure plastic clay or thoroughly deflocculated paste. I have never seen
this explained. But if a fluidising agent is used which does not
promote this mystery process then the work seems bound to collapse
during firing.
I can see your point, use alcohol, turpentine, linseed oil, soft soap.
All will cause clay to form a paste of some sort or other. But do they
promote dry adhesion?
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
Tig Dupre on tue 27 apr 04
With regard to several suggestions, I remember reading in one of my references of a mixture of clay and silicon caulking compound. I do not remember the exact proportions, but I might start with 3 clay to 1 caulk, and do a series of tests.
I recall the illustration being an open weave basket of thin strands, looking VERY delicate and lacy. A wonderful piece of work.
Just for what it's worth...
Tig Dupre
in Port Orchard, Washington, USA, where the sunrise is painting the sky and the mountain a to-die-for shade of red-blush peach... Love to make a glaze like that!
Janet Kaiser on wed 28 apr 04
Hi William and/or Pat Young
I haven't a clue what tools you may mean, but I do not see why
you could not learn to pipe roses or any other traditional shapes
such as pansies and leaves using a softish clay body. But first
you are going to have to forget US frosting (far too soft) and
practice the technique you watched being demonstrated using Royal
Icing to get the idea about the clay consistency you will need
instead...
Royal icing (which is made of icing sugar and egg white) can be
very stiff indeed... Really much harder than soft clay which is
hard enough to keep its shape! I believe you call it powder sugar
rather than icing sugar in the US? Whatever! The ratio is a half
pound of sugar to each egg white. Sift the sugar, stir in the egg
and then beat really well, until the mix hardens and will stay in
shape, including "curl over" peaks made with the spoon.
Then use a syringe and plunger with the correct petal nozzle.
That will be better than using an icing bag, because you will be
able to exert more pressure single-handed. You need to turn the
rose as it is piped, so the flower is held in one hand and the
syringe in the other (usually the hand one writes with). The
centre is piped as a spiral first and the other petals added,
giving the base a half twist each time... But you probably saw
the technique in the demonstration you watched?
My main input is really that no way need the clay be anything
like an overly wet sloppy mix or thick slip. Have you ever made
"hair" or "grass" using a course sieve or a garlic press? Well,
the clay for your piping should be just the same consistency.
Soft enough to squeeze through, but hard enough to hold its
shape. A gentle squeeze at the end to make sure the parts are
stuck together and away you got!
I would attach to the greenware immediately, using a little slip
made of the same body as both base and roses.
If you are speaking of hundreds of flowers, you may like to
consider a flower mould or multiple moulds? They would not afford
the same detail or realistic appearance of what you propose, but
stylised shapes have their own charm. Hoping this helps and
looking forward to hearing what the outcome is!
Sincerely
Janet Kaiser -- with knees like footballs but a clean and tidy
kitchen where we will not be able to find anything for days!
Curiously I do know where the icing kit has ended up.
*** IN REPLY TO THE FOLLOWING MAIL:
>Has anyone ever used cake decorating tools to make CLAY ROSES
like the
>frosting ones you see on cakes?
*** THE MAIL FROM William Sheppard ENDS HERE ***
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