Paul Lewing on wed 28 apr 04
on 4/28/04 5:20 PM, Imbolchottie@AOL.COM at Imbolchottie@AOL.COM wrote:
> But the question is COMMISSIONS. I know I am going to be asked for one or
> two items and I dread the banter of "I want a blue, but not a sky blue or a
> sea foam blue, but a teal blue with little of brown like you have on this 2
cm. square inch of a pot on the shelf."
You should never take a commission that you're not comfortable with, but I
do between 30 and 50 tile commissions a year, and my attitude is, "It's not
my art, it's your house". If you're not prepared to do a little of this
"blue, but not sky blue or sea foam blue", you shouldn't be doing
commissions.
>
> "Frankly, customer, these are the colors I work with, these are the colors I
> am exploring, if you don't like it, so go to Walmart." But I don't want to
> do/say that.
Actually, this is exactly what you should be saying, without the abrupt
remark about Wal-Mart. I often have to give my clients the "It Ain't Paint"
lecture. They like it better that way. It lets them know that you know
what you can control and what you can't. And they will accept limitations
like that. Remember, they asked you to do a commission for them because
they like what you make. When I first started doing so many commissions,
people would sometimes ask for something wildly different from anything I'd
ever done before, and I'd wonder just why they came to me with that idea.
But now that I've been at this for 18 years, I seldom get anything that's
completely new. When I do, I love it.
And I will be wary of Church-Folk. Read the thread on
> commissions
> for Church Committees and thanks, I'm a Pagan, I'll pass.
Good advice, that. Avoid committee decision making at all costs. I only
ever had trouble along those lines, and yes, it was a church.
>
> But how do you deal with commissions.
> On some items, I can do it, I have the skill every step of the way from
> wedging to pulling it from the kiln. But other items, I'm not real
> comfortable.
Trust yourself. Chances are, if it's not something completely different
from anything you've ever done, you'll figure it out.
>
> But commissions -- do I charge more? (One person said they charge 50% more),
> others have horror stories that give me the willies, but then again, some
> thrive on it.
Certainly you should charge more for a custom-made item. And if it's
something you'll never sell to anyone else, you should charge a lot more.
The best advice I can give you about quoting prices is think about it ahead
of time, and decide how you're going to charge, and how much, for anything
you can imagine anyone wanting. You don't want to stammer around and let
people think you've never done this before.
>
> Others have a form that states limits and expectations and aim for a Win-Win
> situation between artist and customer. I like that and would appreciate any
> pointers or advice.
I don't think you need anything as formal as a written form. But you and
the clients should be clear on what you're each expecting.
>
> What doesn't sell I have decided goes to HAMMERSVILLE for a good hammering.
Don't break it because it doesn't sell at one show. Sometimes you need to
hang onto a piece for years before the right person comes along for it.
Besides, you're going to need something for the next show. And you never
sell EVERYTHING you bring.
> This is spooky, putting yourself out there for the public
It is, but you're on the right track with your remark about having the
vaudeville gene. Selling is theater. You design the set, you put on the
costume, you learn the lines. Acting is a craft, just like pottery. If you
can learn the craft of potting well enough to make pots that people will
buy, you can learn the craft of acting well enough to sell them. And pot
buyers are pretty nice folks, generally.
Knock 'em dead.
Paul Lewing, Seattle
Snail Scott on wed 28 apr 04
At 09:20 PM 4/28/04 EDT, Jonathan wrote:
>...But the question is COMMISSIONS...
It's a thorny question, too. My best advice is:
KNOW THYSELF!
Some people hate dancing to anyone else's tune,
and should refuse any proposed commissions
outright for the sake of their ongoing happiness,
regardless of the money involved.
Other people thrive on new challenges that they
would never have thought to set for themselves,
and should actively court commission work for the
variey and stimulation of it.
Most people are somewhere in the middle. You must
figure out your own comfort level for such work.
You may guess wrongly at first; that's life.
Learn from it.
As a starting point, I would suggest not accepting
commissions which diverge too much from your
current range of work.
If someone suggests such a project, and it intrigues
you, develop work in that direction BECAUSE it
intrigues you. Tell the (potential) client that
you'd have to do some R&D, and it might not work
out right away. If they care to wait, you might
come up with something, and you'll let them know if
it pans out. If they want a more condensed timeline,
they'll need to pay, since you'll be setting aside
rent-paying work to do it with no clear notion of
the time and effort involved.
This is the 'can of worms' that commission artists
fear: a commitment to a project that turns out to
be unfullfillable, or never completed to the
satisfaction of the client.
A common practice for commissions which lie within
the scope of the artist's reliable abilities is to
take 50% in advance, and 50% on delivery. Thus, if
the client backs out, you're not left high and dry.
(The deposit discourages the client from doing so,
too.) For work that can be sold elsewhere within
the context of your other work, you might forgo
the deposit, but why? The more similar the job is
to your current work, the more likely the client is
to have their expectations fulfilled.
It's jobs like murals which can't be sold elsewhere
that are the nail-biters for both parties. (Danger,
Will Robinson, danger!) For these, more than for
most commissions, it's best not to plan on exceeding
your known abilities. You should also work out what
is expected in as much detail as humanly possible,
with sketches, descriptions, timelines, rates for
various options; everything you can think of between
you. Discrepancies in expectations are among the
most easily avoided pitfalls. Talk about it, a lot!
Whether to ask more than your 'standard rate': it
depends entirely on whether you can sell the item
elsewhere if the client backs out. If it will fit
right in with your current work, don't. If you'll
be stuck with a potential white elephant, do. And
get that deposit.
I make up a written contract for all commission
jobs. No legalese, and no pretense to it; just a
written reference for both parties to refer to,
setting down the expectations of both sides. It
includes cost and dates of payments, what should
constitute an acceptable fulfillment of the job,
a cost penalty for change orders(!), and what
happens if each aspect isn't met. It's hard to
cover all the bases, but the biggest problems
I've encountered in the past haven't been from
shifty characters, but from well-intentioned
folks who (when the job was completed six months
later) recalled a different arrangement. A copy
of the agreement for each party saves a lot of
hard feelings and needless disputes.
As for churches: I just completed a commission
for a Unitarian congregation. There were a few
rough spots, mainly due to the poor performance
of 3rd parties whose efforts were essential to
success. In spite of the stories I'd heard,
though, the church committee was a joy to work
with. I have never experienced such truly
efficient meetings, with every topic discussed
just enough, decided on promptly, and (wonder
of wonders,) committed to! (Your mileage may
vary...)
-Snail Scott
Reno, Nevada, USA, Earth
Imbolchottie@AOL.COM on wed 28 apr 04
OK Folks, I have this Open Studio art show coming up, so I've been wading
through the archives. I have to thank Charles Moore, Lois A, Charnley and
especially Kathie Wheater for their feedback and pep talks. Kathie's best line, was
in regard to selling: "Don't be a stranger, just be strange." OK, that I can
do.
But the question is COMMISSIONS. I know I am going to be asked for one or
two items and I dread the banter of "I want a blue, but not a sky blue or a sea
foam blue, but a teal blue with little of brown like you have on this 2 cm.
square inch of a pot on the shelf."
"Frankly, customer, these are the colors I work with, these are the colors I
am exploring, if you don't like it, so go to Walmart." But I don't want to
do/say that. And I will be wary of Church-Folk. Read the thread on commissions
for Church Committees and thanks, I'm a Pagan, I'll pass.
But how do you deal with commissions.
On some items, I can do it, I have the skill every step of the way from
wedging to pulling it from the kiln. But other items, I'm not real comfortable.
I copied down the posts by Snail and Stephanie, but that doesn't mean I don't
want to hear their input. From their posts, they are some of my heroes on
this list. I respect their experience and diplomacy.
OK, I can safely say now, I can make a set of dishes with reliable glazes
thanks to Ron and John's book -- and by the way I'm getting some great result
with gas firing and reduction (from slight to heavy) using MC6G's.
But commissions -- do I charge more? (One person said they charge 50% more),
others have horror stories that give me the willies, but then again, some
thrive on it.
Me, I think I might do well with commissions because I work better under
pressure.
Others have a form that states limits and expectations and aim for a Win-Win
situation between artist and customer. I like that and would appreciate any
pointers or advice.
Off list is ok, I don't want to clutter the list with stuff that the majority
of you have heard already, done already, and have grown past.
At this point I have the display down, set up, the pricing, some brochures,
some pitch angles (Lois told me that her work always sells better when she's
there speaking for herself.) Talk, OK, I can do that, I have a dominant
Vaudeville gene and a semi-recessive Burlesque brush of a gene.
Plus I have some very good work to offer. Makes me think twice about setting
up a 'Seconds' section.
What doesn't sell I have decided goes to HAMMERSVILLE for a good hammering.
And now, at this point, I see why many have bisque piles of pieces not worth
glazing.
This is spooky, putting yourself out there for the public, but darn it, like
learning how to make glazes, it's part of a world that I have discovered I
love very much, want to learn every aspect of, and cannot imagine the rest of my
life without clay in it.
Oh jeez, a name, a name, I don't know 'Mud in the Blood' comes to mind, but
so do many other silly ones.
I'll close for now, more packing to do -- I never knew old kitty litter boxes
would be so useful!
My thanks in advance -- Jonathan in Los Angeles
Clay, the cat, by the way is an awesome fella.
Concepts in Clay on thu 29 apr 04
In a message dated 4/28/2004 10:19:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Imbolchottie@AOL.COM writes:
> Plus I have some very good work to offer. Makes me think twice about
> setting
> up a 'Seconds' section.
>
Jonathan
Do think very seriously about selling seconds. You have only one name and
reputation. It's up to you to command respect for your talent and ability.
Seconds can come back to haunt you later. Definitely not worth the few bucks you can
get for them. USE THAT HAMMER!
Best of luck,
Bobbi in Carlisle, PA
My life is full of mistakes. They're like pebbles that make a good road...
Beatrice Wood
Susan Fox-Hirschmann on thu 29 apr 04
In a message dated 4/29/2004 6:57:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
PJLewing@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:
<< You should never take a commission that you're not comfortable with, but I
do between 30 and 50 tile commissions a year, and my attitude is, "It's not
my art, it's your house". If you're not prepared to do a little of this
"blue, but not sky blue or sea foam blue", you shouldn't be doing
commissions. >>
I totally agree....if you are willing to work with people, and work to please
them ....cause really it is all about them loving your work and trusting you
to create wonderful things for them....but the big part is understanding what
they want and creating for THEM and their desires and needs.
Since 70% of my work is commissions....I personally love the give and take
that is involved with it all. It kind of encourages one;s creative juices to
know that others out there want what we can create. And what a great pleasure
to be able to do this and be our own artists, our own boss, and support
ourself.
Actually, I love doing commissions.....but one needs to be willing to be open
to working well with others--there must be a give and take with the creative
process.
Susan
Annandale, VA
Susan Fox Hirschmann
Art Pottery
please visit http://www.silverhawk.com/ex99/hirschmann
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