making glazes???

updated sat 8 may 04

Simona Drentea on sun 2 may 04

In a message dated 05/02/2004 8:50:28 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
clayimagestudio1@YAHOO.COM writes:
<< I appreciate your input. I get the idea from her that
she may not be forthcoming with the recipes. One
reason being that she has her own clay body made that
noone else can buy unless through herself. I will find
another route. <<

Another thought is that you might ask her if she's willing to sell her
glazes. I'm told that some people won't share their recipes, but are willing to
sell the glazes. I like Snail's idea of asking her to give you suggestions.
That will get the dialog going.

Simona in Colorado

tammy brown on sun 2 may 04

Hello to all....
Would someone give me direction as I am somewhat new
to clay? I do not throw but rather indulge in
handbuilt sculpture. In my experience thus far I have
quickly picked up pointers and methods for building
but am having a very difficult time grasping the idea
of glazes. Can you suggest any reference material that
would be helpful for someone whom feels lost on the
subject? Also, if I may ask, is it taboo to ask a
teacher in her own studio for her glaze recipes? Until
I master these issues on my own I feel more
comfortable using glazes that I have all ready tried.
I have used mostly colored slips which I seem to have
my best luck, but I do not want to appear stupid for
asking for a recipe from a teacher and appear
ridiculous if that is something you just don't do?
Thanks to everyone.....
Confused Tammy




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Snail Scott on sun 2 may 04

At 06:46 AM 5/2/04 -0700, Tammy wrote:
>...handbuilt sculpture...difficult time grasping the idea
>of glazes...


First, I want to point out that although glaze may
be the best surface ever invented for functional
pottery, sculpture has other concerns, and glaze may
or may not be the best choice for your intentions.
It's certainly worth learning about them, as I
believe that the more skills you have, the easier it
is to get the result you want. Almost every basic
ceramics text has a decent explanation of the
fundamentals. Don't be 'brainwashed' by all the
potter-talk about glaze, though. If your work needs
glaze, do glaze, but it's not the only surface there
is.


>...is it taboo to ask a
>teacher in her own studio for her glaze recipes?


Some people don't like to share their recipes. I
figure that's their prerogative. While many people
are very generous with their recipes, those recipes
may represent a lot of work in developing them, and
I can't really hold it against someone for not
wanting to give that effort away.

If your teacher hasn't offered, you might not want
to ask outright, but ask "Can you suggest any glaze
recipes I could try?" If she offers her own, great.
If not, try others. Just because a set of glazes is
perfect for your teacher's work doesn't make them
the best for your stuff anyway. There are a zillion
recipes in the Clayart archives, and in books. The
only advantage to having your teacher's recipes is
that they probably suit your clay (same clay?) well,
and suit her style of firing as well. But someday
you'll be choosing your own clay and firing style,
and you'll need to find glazes that suit it then.

Start by asking yourself what you want from the
glaze: what colors, what texture (both 'visual'
and 'physical'), what temperature range, etc.
Then go looking for likely candidates. (Note that
many glazes don't have a particular color - they
are called 'base glazes' and you add colorants to
suit yourself.) Then test. Do up a lot of tests,
while you're at it. Then look at the fired results.
Some may not interest you. Others may look under-
fired; try adding a little flux. Others are too
runny; try adding less. Try different colorants
in all of them. It's nearly always necessary to
'tweak' some of them, but for now, just see what
you get and work from there.

>I have used mostly colored slips which I seem to have
>my best luck...

Don't overlook engobes. They are sort of the
'middle ground' between plain colored-clay slips
and vitreous glazes. You can get a wide range of
matte surfaces and by upping the flux you can
come almost to a true glaze. ('Underglazes' are
one category of engobe, by the way.) Most engobes,
because they don't melt to a full, glassy melt,
are pretty forgiving, usually work fine without
fussing, and though they aren't necessarily
good for pottery, can be great for sculpture.
Engobe recipes can also be found in books and in
the archives.


-Snail Scott
Reno, Nevada, USA, Earth

Simona Drentea on sun 2 may 04

I don't think it's taboo, I think you'll kind of get a feel for whether your
instructor is secretive about his/her glazes or not. I've had both kinds.
One freely gave me any recipe, the other gave off very secretive vibes, so I
never asked. I think it helps to use glazes that you know work for you when
you're first starting out b/c it's a variable that you know the outcome to.

Simona in Colorado
Also, if I may ask, is it taboo to ask a
teacher in her own studio for her glaze recipes? Until
I master these issues on my own I feel more
comfortable using glazes that I have all ready tried.
I have used mostly colored slips which I seem to have
my best luck, but I do not want to appear stupid for
asking for a recipe from a teacher and appear
ridiculous if that is something you just don't do?

tammy brown on sun 2 may 04

Thank you Simona
I appreciate your input. I get the idea from her that
she may not be forthcoming with the recipes. One
reason being that she has her own clay body made that
noone else can buy unless through herself. I will find
another route.
Thanks again, and yes I agree it is more comfortable
to use what you have learned with, but I will try
using the Clayart Archives to find something suitable.
Thank you again.
Confused Tammy!


--- Simona Drentea wrote:
> I don't think it's taboo, I think you'll kind of get
> a feel for whether your
> instructor is secretive about his/her glazes or not.
> I've had both kinds.
> One freely gave me any recipe, the other gave off
> very secretive vibes, so I
> never asked. I think it helps to use glazes that
> you know work for you when
> you're first starting out b/c it's a variable that
> you know the outcome to.
>
> Simona in Colorado
> Also, if I may ask, is it taboo to ask a
> teacher in her own studio for her glaze recipes?
> Until
> I master these issues on my own I feel more
> comfortable using glazes that I have all ready
> tried.
> I have used mostly colored slips which I seem to
> have
> my best luck, but I do not want to appear stupid for
> asking for a recipe from a teacher and appear
> ridiculous if that is something you just don't do?
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.





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tammy brown on sun 2 may 04

Snail
I agree with you that one can be easily "brainwashed"
with all the potter lingo regarding glazes. I am
certainly a prime candidate for such talk. But I am
not into functional pottery though I do have a respect
for its design. I am not interested much in shiny
finishes of sorts and I am taking a class that is
filled primarily with potters. The instructor is quite
astute with her knowledge and has steered me towards
thinly applied matte colored glazes as opposed to
clear in relation to sculpture. Most of my work
involves figures and faces (busts more aptly put)
sitting on or near stonelike structures- so shiny does
not fit into that scenario in my view.
I have been making my own colored slip from the clay
body from which I work. So far it has been pretty
successful and seems to fit better with the work I am
attempting. I definetely want to endeavour upon
engobes, once of course I figure out exactly how to
make it that is! As you can tell and I have stated I
am quite new to the finish aspect in particular.
I too respect the fact that an instructor may not want
to share her recipes. I sort of think it may be a
better idea not to ask, as I suppose I could think
that if I am questioning it then that truly is my
answer. So I will do as you suggest and ask for
suggestions instead. I soooo appreciate your advice
and input.
I know there are so many things yet for me to learn
and I have picked most things up quickly. I have
studied and absorbed much of what I have learned from
printed material, but when it comes to glazes and
finishes I have yet to find a book that answers all my
(what seems to me probably to any veteran to be
stupid) questions.
I have realized that slips have been much easier for
me at this point and terra sigilata or engobes are
another route to study. Clayart archives will be
another good source.
Again I appreciate your advice.....I'll keep on
trekking!!
Confused Tammy






--- Snail Scott wrote:
> At 06:46 AM 5/2/04 -0700, Tammy wrote:
> >...handbuilt sculpture...difficult time grasping
> the idea
> >of glazes...
>
>
> First, I want to point out that although glaze may
> be the best surface ever invented for functional
> pottery, sculpture has other concerns, and glaze may
> or may not be the best choice for your intentions.
> It's certainly worth learning about them, as I
> believe that the more skills you have, the easier it
> is to get the result you want. Almost every basic
> ceramics text has a decent explanation of the
> fundamentals. Don't be 'brainwashed' by all the
> potter-talk about glaze, though. If your work needs
> glaze, do glaze, but it's not the only surface there
> is.
>
>
> >...is it taboo to ask a
> >teacher in her own studio for her glaze recipes?
>
>
> Some people don't like to share their recipes. I
> figure that's their prerogative. While many people
> are very generous with their recipes, those recipes
> may represent a lot of work in developing them, and
> I can't really hold it against someone for not
> wanting to give that effort away.
>
> If your teacher hasn't offered, you might not want
> to ask outright, but ask "Can you suggest any glaze
> recipes I could try?" If she offers her own, great.
> If not, try others. Just because a set of glazes is
> perfect for your teacher's work doesn't make them
> the best for your stuff anyway. There are a zillion
> recipes in the Clayart archives, and in books. The
> only advantage to having your teacher's recipes is
> that they probably suit your clay (same clay?) well,
> and suit her style of firing as well. But someday
> you'll be choosing your own clay and firing style,
> and you'll need to find glazes that suit it then.
>
> Start by asking yourself what you want from the
> glaze: what colors, what texture (both 'visual'
> and 'physical'), what temperature range, etc.
> Then go looking for likely candidates. (Note that
> many glazes don't have a particular color - they
> are called 'base glazes' and you add colorants to
> suit yourself.) Then test. Do up a lot of tests,
> while you're at it. Then look at the fired results.
> Some may not interest you. Others may look under-
> fired; try adding a little flux. Others are too
> runny; try adding less. Try different colorants
> in all of them. It's nearly always necessary to
> 'tweak' some of them, but for now, just see what
> you get and work from there.
>
> >I have used mostly colored slips which I seem to
> have
> >my best luck...
>
> Don't overlook engobes. They are sort of the
> 'middle ground' between plain colored-clay slips
> and vitreous glazes. You can get a wide range of
> matte surfaces and by upping the flux you can
> come almost to a true glaze. ('Underglazes' are
> one category of engobe, by the way.) Most engobes,
> because they don't melt to a full, glassy melt,
> are pretty forgiving, usually work fine without
> fussing, and though they aren't necessarily
> good for pottery, can be great for sculpture.
> Engobe recipes can also be found in books and in
> the archives.
>
>
> -Snail Scott
> Reno, Nevada, USA, Earth
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.





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tammy brown on sun 2 may 04

Snail,
By the way, I forgot to mention that the clay body I
use for my sculptures is completely different from the
one the instructor uses. I use a white sculpture clay
with fine grog and she uses one that she created
herself that is suitable for throwing but has no grog
in it so to speak. So in response to what you
mentioned, you are right... the glazes she has created
are not necessarily suited well to what I do...
though she has taught me quite a bit....
I didnt really think my sculpture suited to clear
glazes and she assured me that it isn't necessary to
do that so my last sculpture she had me dip once in a
matte opaque glaze which will allow the color
underneath to show through(with one thin coat
basically) I have not seen its final fire since that
but will soon.
Thanks again
Confused Tammy





--- Snail Scott wrote:
> At 06:46 AM 5/2/04 -0700, Tammy wrote:
> >...handbuilt sculpture...difficult time grasping
> the idea
> >of glazes...
>
>
> First, I want to point out that although glaze may
> be the best surface ever invented for functional
> pottery, sculpture has other concerns, and glaze may
> or may not be the best choice for your intentions.
> It's certainly worth learning about them, as I
> believe that the more skills you have, the easier it
> is to get the result you want. Almost every basic
> ceramics text has a decent explanation of the
> fundamentals. Don't be 'brainwashed' by all the
> potter-talk about glaze, though. If your work needs
> glaze, do glaze, but it's not the only surface there
> is.
>
>
> >...is it taboo to ask a
> >teacher in her own studio for her glaze recipes?
>
>
> Some people don't like to share their recipes. I
> figure that's their prerogative. While many people
> are very generous with their recipes, those recipes
> may represent a lot of work in developing them, and
> I can't really hold it against someone for not
> wanting to give that effort away.
>
> If your teacher hasn't offered, you might not want
> to ask outright, but ask "Can you suggest any glaze
> recipes I could try?" If she offers her own, great.
> If not, try others. Just because a set of glazes is
> perfect for your teacher's work doesn't make them
> the best for your stuff anyway. There are a zillion
> recipes in the Clayart archives, and in books. The
> only advantage to having your teacher's recipes is
> that they probably suit your clay (same clay?) well,
> and suit her style of firing as well. But someday
> you'll be choosing your own clay and firing style,
> and you'll need to find glazes that suit it then.
>
> Start by asking yourself what you want from the
> glaze: what colors, what texture (both 'visual'
> and 'physical'), what temperature range, etc.
> Then go looking for likely candidates. (Note that
> many glazes don't have a particular color - they
> are called 'base glazes' and you add colorants to
> suit yourself.) Then test. Do up a lot of tests,
> while you're at it. Then look at the fired results.
> Some may not interest you. Others may look under-
> fired; try adding a little flux. Others are too
> runny; try adding less. Try different colorants
> in all of them. It's nearly always necessary to
> 'tweak' some of them, but for now, just see what
> you get and work from there.
>
> >I have used mostly colored slips which I seem to
> have
> >my best luck...
>
> Don't overlook engobes. They are sort of the
> 'middle ground' between plain colored-clay slips
> and vitreous glazes. You can get a wide range of
> matte surfaces and by upping the flux you can
> come almost to a true glaze. ('Underglazes' are
> one category of engobe, by the way.) Most engobes,
> because they don't melt to a full, glassy melt,
> are pretty forgiving, usually work fine without
> fussing, and though they aren't necessarily
> good for pottery, can be great for sculpture.
> Engobe recipes can also be found in books and in
> the archives.
>
>
> -Snail Scott
> Reno, Nevada, USA, Earth
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.





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tammy brown on mon 3 may 04

Kathy,
True that is...I am not sure what motivates her
privacy but I choose to respect it. I asked her today
what recipes she might recommend and she didn't answer
so I can take that as a definite no....that's okay I
am willing to do trial and error, but I will have to
do it on small pieces as my sculptures are rather
large in size and heavy. I do not want to experiment
on these pieces-- they take about three months each to
dry.
That's all okay, maybe clay arters can help...they and
you have been quite forthright in your responses and I
sooooooo appreciate it.
thanks
Tammy





--- Kathy Forer wrote:
> On May 3, 2004, at 2:22 PM, Kathy Forer wrote:
>
> > As well, the instructor just might not like people
> 'following in her
> > footsteps'. She may want you to find your own way,
> through
> > experimentation, trial and error, rather than
> adapt existing
> > techniques.
>
> I meant to say "rather than adapt 'her' existing
> techniques."
>
>
> KEF
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.





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tammy brown on mon 3 may 04

Ah Snail...
You are definetely onto something I like the sounds
of. I just picked up my successfully fired piece of
sculpture tonight in class. The instructor was sooooo
excited for me to see it. I didn't let on that I was
really disappointed in the color change. I made
colored slips with Mason Stains that I had test fired
first. She encouraged me after a bisque firing in
which all the colors stayed the same to try an opaque
white glaze thinly applied with one quick dip. All my
blacks and greys turned brown. My taupes turned brown
too and I am so confused. The colors showed through as
she said they would but I loved the original colors of
the slip. I used a stoneware buff clay body fired C4
to C7. All though I need to ask at what temp. she
fired them I am confused about why the colors changes
so. Also it has a sheen to it that I don't care for at
all. Noone looking at it would know that it wasn't
what I expected but me...the other students were going
wild over it...
I usually use a low fire earthenware white sculpture
clay with fine grog added. I have not fired one of
those pieces yet though so that test is still to be
seen. I just bought a kiln today and my studio os
being put together within the next month, but I have
to tell you that I am terrified to fire my first
piece. Any advice you can offer on that subject would
also be quite appreciated.
As for engobes....would I have better luck maintaining
the orignal colors with those as they can be applied
to bisque ware. So far I have as you said applied the
colored slips to damp clay.
Can you tell me why those colors changes so????/ Was
it the firing temp. or was it the addition of the
opaque white glaze that caused the colors to do that?
I guess my goal is to have a more stone looking piece
when I am finished. I have a bust drying that I built
on an armature and I just created another bust (full
size by building clay supports) and I am not sure
where to go with them. I do know that I do not want
sheen to them. So I think maybe glazes should not be
my route. Should I fire them once without a bisque
firing or should I continue to do the bisque firings
first? I am just learning of some of the qualities of
raw materials too...so any help is WONDERFUL>
Thanks Snail
I appreciate yours and any advice I can get...as you
can see.....>I am confused!!
Tammy in Columbus





--- Snail Scott wrote:
> At 07:24 PM 5/2/04 -0700, you wrote:
> >...I definetely want to endeavour upon
> >engobes, once of course I figure out exactly how to
> >make it that is!
>
>
> Unlike glazes, which attain a glassy melt and have
> all the chemical-balance issues that go with making
> a stable glass mix, engobes can be thought of as
> a variety of special-purpose slips.
>
> Slips made of your base clay must be applied to the
> work while the clay is still damp, or risk cracking
> off unless very thin. Engobes can be composed to
> give a look just like slip, but to go onto dry clay,
> or even onto bisque. This is one major reason for
> choosing engobes. Another is if your base clay is a
> color that doesn't lend itself to colorants, or has
> a very gritty texture that's great to build with but
> not the surface you want for the finished piece. You
> could simply make slip from another clay, but it
> may not have a compatible shrinkage with the clay
> underneath.
>
> An engobe can be made to suit the needs of your clay
> while giving the slip-like surface effects you want
> at any stage of the process. You can also manipulate
> the gloss, to anything from flat matte (just like a
> slip) to a slight satin, to something almost like a
> glaze. You can also use them for underglazes,
> leaving
> the engobe exposed in some areas or covering it with
> a clear glaze in others for contrast or emphasis.
> Since, like slips, they don't fully melt unless you
> spike the fluxes (a lot!) you can paint and blend
> your colors for a very controlled surface.
>
> Also, since a full melt is not being sought, engobes
> (unlike most glazes) are quite forgiving of firing
> variations, and will look much the same across a
> wide
> range of temperatures and firing (and cooling)
> speeds.
> That's why when you look for recipes, you'll see
> them
> listed with what will seem (by glaze standards) an
> improbably wide range of firing temperatures.
>
> Consider using Mason stains as a colorant. They are
> expensive, true, but you don't need tons of it. They
> will give you a wide palette of colors without the
> variations of oxides, and they (mostly) mix and
> match
> without weird chemical interactions. Also, since
> stains are already fired, you will see a color which
> is similar to the final fired effect, making it
> easier
> to predict what you will get.
>
> Chappell's 'Potter's Complete Book of Clay and
> GLazes'
> has a number of engobe recipes and suggestions for
> standard oxide colorants as well. I don't know what
> temperature or atmosphere you are firing with, but
> there's something there for most purposes, and you
> can probably find it in the library. Other books
> also
> will have a few engobe recipes. You don't need many,
> since they don't have the wide range of results that
> glazes have.
>
> If you find a recipe that works for you, you can
> modify it without chemical calculations. Just add
> extra calcined clay in place of regular clay to use
> it on bisque (if it's a greenware recipe), or
> replace
> half of the the calcined clay with a regular clay to
> convert a bisque recipe for greenware. To give it
> more gloss, add a little frit. Try different levels
> of colorants.
>
> I generally keep a big jar of dry-mixed uncolored
> engobe. When I want to use some, I scoop out 100
> grams (or 500, or whatever I'll need) into a small
> tupperware tub and add colorants to it then, just
> before adding the water, for whatever purpose I
> have in mind. That way, I don't have to measure
> out a separate batch for each color, or have little
> tubs of a dozen unneeded colors sitting around
> drying out. I just mix it up as the use arises.
>
> -Snail Scott
> Reno, Nevada, USA, Earth
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.





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tammy brown on mon 3 may 04

Thank you Ivor,
I will look for that piece of literature. I did try
the indirect approach and I recieved no response. She
is quite forthcoming in her teaching but definetely
not in advice on that course. Most of her glazes were
created for her by someone else and I can understand
withholding them.
So that's okay, because after bringing home my first
successfully fired piece tonight I think I have
discovered that glazes with any sheen do not fit my
sculptural pieces, so I need to look for more matte
type glazes or something else. I used an opaque white
glaze- one thin dip in the bucket and it is WAYYYY to
sheeny for my taste or what I had in mind. The
instructor guided me towards no shine therefore I was
surprised that it had a sheen to it... I suppose
everyone's eye is different...and as expected....I am
still learning....what should I put over the bisque
firing to make the piece look finished without
obscuring my original slip colors and adding no
sheen???/
I feel so lost here....
Thank you for your advice maybe more literature would
be a good start...
Tammy in Columbus





--- Ivor and Olive Lewis
wrote:
> Dear Tammy,
> We all have to start this journey somewhere so we
> have all stood where
> your feet are now,
> I think the way you ask your instructor is the
> important factor in
> eliciting information which would get you to the
> next step. So ask for
> guidance that would lead you towards successfully
> accomplishing your
> objectives, using a sort of indirect approach to
> winkle out a recipe
> or two.
> The next step is to get your head into the knowledge
> base. Here, I
> would suggest you start browsing through a book by
> James Chappell,
> "The Potters Complete Book of Clay and Glazes". This
> will provide you
> with some idea about the variety of glazed surfaces
> that can be made
> and used directly or adapted to suit your desires.
> Beyond that, experience and inquisitiveness will
> guide your footsteps.
> Best regards,
> Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tammy brown"
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 2 May 2004 11:16
> Subject: Making glazes???
>
>
> > Hello to all....
> > Would someone give me direction as I am somewhat
> new
> > to clay? I do not throw but rather indulge in
> > handbuilt sculpture. In my experience thus far I
> have
> > quickly picked up pointers and methods for
> building
> > but am having a very difficult time grasping the
> idea
> > of glazes. Can you suggest any reference material
> that
> > would be helpful for someone whom feels lost on
> the
> > subject? Also, if I may ask, is it taboo to ask a
> > teacher in her own studio for her glaze recipes?
> Until
> > I master these issues on my own I feel more
> > comfortable using glazes that I have all ready
> tried.
> > I have used mostly colored slips which I seem to
> have
> > my best luck, but I do not want to appear stupid
> for
> > asking for a recipe from a teacher and appear
> > ridiculous if that is something you just don't do?
> > Thanks to everyone.....
> > Confused Tammy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
> >
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
> >
> >
>
______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or
> change your
> subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
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> reached at melpots@pclink.com.





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tammy brown on mon 3 may 04

You know Kathy I am not sure. I am taking this class
and they are all potters which is fine. The instructor
encourages you to do whatever you want to do . I playe
with the wheel and learned to center and throw and
realized that hand built sculpture is my vice. That is
fine....I want to learn any and every method there
is...I also incorporate slabbing into many of my
pieces...
I have decided after tonight that any sheen is more
than I desire for any of these pieces. Not sure what
route I should travel here....
Maybe the engobe route is more up my alley...and I do
not need glaze recipes....
?????????/
Thank you again for your advice
Tammy in Columbus




--- Kathy Forer wrote:
> On May 2, 2004, at 11:50 PM, Simona Drentea wrote:
>
> > Another thought is that you might ask her if she's
> willing to sell her
> > glazes. I'm told that some people won't share
> their recipes, but are
> > willing to
> > sell the glazes. I like Snail's idea of asking
> her to give you
> > suggestions.
> > That will get the dialog going.
>
> As well, the instructor just might not like people
> 'following in her
> footsteps'. She may want you to find your own way,
> through
> experimentation, trial and error, rather than adapt
> existing
> techniques.
>
> I just saw your email of today -- Good luck on your
> move forward! Maybe
> that's what your teacher was going after, your own
> way. Her
> secretiveness might not have been self-serving, but
> could have been
> encouraging independence, even if somewhat
> negatively.
>
> Kathy F.
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.





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Snail Scott on mon 3 may 04

At 07:24 PM 5/2/04 -0700, you wrote:
>...I definetely want to endeavour upon
>engobes, once of course I figure out exactly how to
>make it that is!


Unlike glazes, which attain a glassy melt and have
all the chemical-balance issues that go with making
a stable glass mix, engobes can be thought of as
a variety of special-purpose slips.

Slips made of your base clay must be applied to the
work while the clay is still damp, or risk cracking
off unless very thin. Engobes can be composed to
give a look just like slip, but to go onto dry clay,
or even onto bisque. This is one major reason for
choosing engobes. Another is if your base clay is a
color that doesn't lend itself to colorants, or has
a very gritty texture that's great to build with but
not the surface you want for the finished piece. You
could simply make slip from another clay, but it
may not have a compatible shrinkage with the clay
underneath.

An engobe can be made to suit the needs of your clay
while giving the slip-like surface effects you want
at any stage of the process. You can also manipulate
the gloss, to anything from flat matte (just like a
slip) to a slight satin, to something almost like a
glaze. You can also use them for underglazes, leaving
the engobe exposed in some areas or covering it with
a clear glaze in others for contrast or emphasis.
Since, like slips, they don't fully melt unless you
spike the fluxes (a lot!) you can paint and blend
your colors for a very controlled surface.

Also, since a full melt is not being sought, engobes
(unlike most glazes) are quite forgiving of firing
variations, and will look much the same across a wide
range of temperatures and firing (and cooling) speeds.
That's why when you look for recipes, you'll see them
listed with what will seem (by glaze standards) an
improbably wide range of firing temperatures.

Consider using Mason stains as a colorant. They are
expensive, true, but you don't need tons of it. They
will give you a wide palette of colors without the
variations of oxides, and they (mostly) mix and match
without weird chemical interactions. Also, since
stains are already fired, you will see a color which
is similar to the final fired effect, making it easier
to predict what you will get.

Chappell's 'Potter's Complete Book of Clay and GLazes'
has a number of engobe recipes and suggestions for
standard oxide colorants as well. I don't know what
temperature or atmosphere you are firing with, but
there's something there for most purposes, and you
can probably find it in the library. Other books also
will have a few engobe recipes. You don't need many,
since they don't have the wide range of results that
glazes have.

If you find a recipe that works for you, you can
modify it without chemical calculations. Just add
extra calcined clay in place of regular clay to use
it on bisque (if it's a greenware recipe), or replace
half of the the calcined clay with a regular clay to
convert a bisque recipe for greenware. To give it
more gloss, add a little frit. Try different levels
of colorants.

I generally keep a big jar of dry-mixed uncolored
engobe. When I want to use some, I scoop out 100
grams (or 500, or whatever I'll need) into a small
tupperware tub and add colorants to it then, just
before adding the water, for whatever purpose I
have in mind. That way, I don't have to measure
out a separate batch for each color, or have little
tubs of a dozen unneeded colors sitting around
drying out. I just mix it up as the use arises.

-Snail Scott
Reno, Nevada, USA, Earth

tammy brown on mon 3 may 04

Ah Thanks again Simona
I tried Snail's idea today
I emailed her and asked if she had any suggestions. I
have class tonight. I ordered a new kiln that should
be in next week and in the process of putting together
a studio. So now it is time to work on my own
concoctions....and I do lots of testing. So far I have
taken all my test pieces to a little local ceramic
(slip cast) painting place. They have been more than
nice and have offered to just throw my test pieces in
with their products for no charge, but so far my test
pieces have mostly been slips that I have made myself.

I am confused but determined to get this down. I'm
sure it takes lots of practice.
Thank you
Not as confused Tammy!!HAHA





--- Simona Drentea wrote:
> In a message dated 05/02/2004 8:50:28 PM Mountain
> Daylight Time,
> clayimagestudio1@YAHOO.COM writes:
> << I appreciate your input. I get the idea from her
> that
> she may not be forthcoming with the recipes. One
> reason being that she has her own clay body made
> that
> noone else can buy unless through herself. I will
> find
> another route. <<
>
> Another thought is that you might ask her if she's
> willing to sell her
> glazes. I'm told that some people won't share their
> recipes, but are willing to
> sell the glazes. I like Snail's idea of asking her
> to give you suggestions.
> That will get the dialog going.
>
> Simona in Colorado
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.





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Kathy Forer on mon 3 may 04

On May 2, 2004, at 11:50 PM, Simona Drentea wrote:

> Another thought is that you might ask her if she's willing to sell her
> glazes. I'm told that some people won't share their recipes, but are
> willing to
> sell the glazes. I like Snail's idea of asking her to give you
> suggestions.
> That will get the dialog going.

As well, the instructor just might not like people 'following in her
footsteps'. She may want you to find your own way, through
experimentation, trial and error, rather than adapt existing
techniques.

I just saw your email of today -- Good luck on your move forward! Maybe
that's what your teacher was going after, your own way. Her
secretiveness might not have been self-serving, but could have been
encouraging independence, even if somewhat negatively.

Kathy F.

Kathy Forer on mon 3 may 04

On May 3, 2004, at 2:22 PM, Kathy Forer wrote:

> As well, the instructor just might not like people 'following in her
> footsteps'. She may want you to find your own way, through
> experimentation, trial and error, rather than adapt existing
> techniques.

I meant to say "rather than adapt 'her' existing techniques."


KEF

Ivor and Olive Lewis on mon 3 may 04

Dear Tammy,
We all have to start this journey somewhere so we have all stood where
your feet are now,
I think the way you ask your instructor is the important factor in
eliciting information which would get you to the next step. So ask for
guidance that would lead you towards successfully accomplishing your
objectives, using a sort of indirect approach to winkle out a recipe
or two.
The next step is to get your head into the knowledge base. Here, I
would suggest you start browsing through a book by James Chappell,
"The Potters Complete Book of Clay and Glazes". This will provide you
with some idea about the variety of glazed surfaces that can be made
and used directly or adapted to suit your desires.
Beyond that, experience and inquisitiveness will guide your footsteps.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "tammy brown"
To:
Sent: Sunday, 2 May 2004 11:16
Subject: Making glazes???


> Hello to all....
> Would someone give me direction as I am somewhat new
> to clay? I do not throw but rather indulge in
> handbuilt sculpture. In my experience thus far I have
> quickly picked up pointers and methods for building
> but am having a very difficult time grasping the idea
> of glazes. Can you suggest any reference material that
> would be helpful for someone whom feels lost on the
> subject? Also, if I may ask, is it taboo to ask a
> teacher in her own studio for her glaze recipes? Until
> I master these issues on my own I feel more
> comfortable using glazes that I have all ready tried.
> I have used mostly colored slips which I seem to have
> my best luck, but I do not want to appear stupid for
> asking for a recipe from a teacher and appear
> ridiculous if that is something you just don't do?
> Thanks to everyone.....
> Confused Tammy
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

Snail Scott on tue 4 may 04

At 08:36 PM 5/3/04 -0700, Tammy wrote:
>The
>instructor guided me towards no shine therefore I was
>surprised that it had a sheen to it...


'Matte' glazes are still a lot shinier than a
dry-matte slip or engobe; they're just more matte
than gloss glazes are!


>...what should I put over the bisque
>firing to make the piece look finished without
>obscuring my original slip colors and adding no
>sheen?


Maybe you don't need anything? What is it about
the bare fired surface that you don't like? What
do you want it to look like? What about it seems
'unfinished' to you?

Not all surfaces have to be fired, either. It's
good to learn all the options for fired surfaces,
but it's not a requirement to use them! Many fine
pieces of sculpture have non-fired finishes. It's
less archival that way, and less suitable for
outdoor display, but for indoor work, there are
many non-fired options, like wax, acrylic sealants,
lacquer or shellac, etc.

This isn't a 'cop-out', if the surface that the
work really needs happens to be a non-fired one.
It's not cheating, honest! But don't go to these
options just to avoid learning more about fired
surfaces, either.

If you can tell us more about what you want, we
can make some more constructive suggestions.

-Snail Scott
Reno, Nevada, USA, Earth

Snail Scott on tue 4 may 04

At 08:27 PM 5/3/04 -0700, Tammy wrote:
>...The instructor...encouraged me after a bisque firing in
>which all the colors stayed the same to try an opaque
>white glaze thinly applied with one quick dip. All my
>blacks and greys turned brown. My taupes turned brown
>too and I am so confused.


Some colors react chemically with some glazes,
and if your white glaze had tin in it, that
could be the problem, since tin can react with
a lot of things.

Don't give up on the idea, but try tests with
different (clear!) glaze recipes over your slips.
It can really make a big difference. Some glazes
induce 'smearing' in the colors, some change the
colors, but only some of them!

Also, thin coverage with glazes doesn't always
end up looking merely 'thinner'. In thin coats,
the glaze is more affected by the clay underneath
and actually melts together with it, a bit. It
can often look totally different than the same
glaze at standard thickness.

Since you liked the slip, why not just leave it
that way? What effect were you seeking, by
putting glaze over the slips? Not shininess, I
gather, but what?


>...I just bought a kiln today and my studio os
>being put together within the next month, but I have
>to tell you that I am terrified to fire my first
>piece...


Test! Make small pieces as test tiles, and do
lots of variations before applying the results
to your actual work. Potters who throw 40 coffee
mugs an hour can afford to use their actual
work for tests; with work that takes a week or
more, that's not worth it. Make your tests with
similar texture to your real work, though, to
give the nearest approximation of the actual
surface.


>As for engobes....would I have better luck maintaining
>the orignal colors with those as they can be applied
>to bisque ware...


Not necessarily, if you put a glaze on top. With
engobes, though, you may be able to achieve
whatever surface you are after without having to
apply a glaze over it.


>...Should I fire them once without a bisque
>firing or should I continue to do the bisque firings
>first?


Firing in one shot directly to your final result
can be a great savings of time and energy, so
it's something you might work toward. Why bisque
if you don't have to? But it moght be too soon for
you to be sure of what's best for your work. Keep
your options open, and for now, do LOTS OF TESTS!
I know they're tedious, but it beats using your
time-consuming real work as a test tile.

tammy brown on tue 4 may 04

You know Snail, without being able to gain access to
the instructors recipe for her slip I have no idea if
it had tin in it. I used Mason Stains for my slip and
I did use white but I did not use white with tin. I
did consider not bisqueing the work but doing a single
fire job but to be honest I am so green that I am just
realizing that you don't have to bisque fire first. Is
there any disadvantage to doing one firing though that
I need to be aware of? I know this sounds stupid but
even though I have confidence in my ability to sculpt
I do NOT have confidence to ask what I think might be
stupid questions to veterans of the trade. I get a
little lost in the lingo of finishes all together. I
spend lots of time having slip pieces test fired from
the same clay body from which I sculpt and have had
pretty good luck with it so far. My tastes seem to
gravitate towards no shine but a finished look. I keep
thinking that pieces that are only fired with slip
will look unfinished. I suppose I need to do just what
you said and I need to do lots of testing.
You are right about another thing...these pieces do
take me a week to create so test firing would be best.

I could use some instruction soon on creating programs
for firing thick sculptures. I talked to the dealer
today and my kiln is in. I bought a Skutt with
automatic controls- not a particularly large one as at
this point I of course will only be firing my own
pieces. I thought maybe beseeching the help of the
shop owner to teach me at the least- how to load a
kiln will be a good start??? He is a great guy and
probably would have taught me if I had asked without
my buying a kiln from him. I do not feel silly asking
him basic questions either.
I had a teacher before this new instructor who taught
in a rather Zen type mode...and he was great. I
infiltrated the poor man with so many questions all
the time that I swear he would run from me!!HAHA
Back to glazes...I am deducting slowly the idea that
glazes are not what I am looking for in finishes. I
like stone to look like stone. The stone under the
sculpture I brought home last night ( being shiny and
all) didn't look like stone at all but rather like a
toy box if you know what I mean?

In reference to your idea that thinner glazes do not
always achieve the results you are looking for.... how
many coats do you do as a rule out of curiousity??? I
have talked to many that do three coats no matter what
and others whom don't.
You mentioned that you can get a subtle sheen I
believe with engobes?
Subtle is fine...matte is my goal. I had thought of
clear glazes too but I think matte glazes as a rule
tend to get cloudy, but then maybe that is as good as
what my instructor intended with one thin coat of a
white glaze?
Do you personally have any recommendations for a glaze
to try? I am willing to test test test...and will
before I actually fire a real piece. The class I was
taking with the Zen type teaching had someone firing
the pieces way too quickly and had a 90 % loss rate on
the pieces so I did not leave any of my pieces to fire
there.
It is time to fire my own. The Zen teacher said that
if your kiln is a sectional ( which mine is) to fire
each ring at least and hour or two apart so that it
fires slowly. I need to study the manual first...
I am so excited... I can hardly begin....
Do you throw Snail or do you do sculpture??? Just
curious?
Tammy of Columbus





--- Snail Scott wrote:
> At 08:27 PM 5/3/04 -0700, Tammy wrote:
> >...The instructor...encouraged me after a bisque
> firing in
> >which all the colors stayed the same to try an
> opaque
> >white glaze thinly applied with one quick dip. All
> my
> >blacks and greys turned brown. My taupes turned
> brown
> >too and I am so confused.
>
>
> Some colors react chemically with some glazes,
> and if your white glaze had tin in it, that
> could be the problem, since tin can react with
> a lot of things.
>
> Don't give up on the idea, but try tests with
> different (clear!) glaze recipes over your slips.
> It can really make a big difference. Some glazes
> induce 'smearing' in the colors, some change the
> colors, but only some of them!
>
>
>
> Since you liked the slip, why not just leave it
> that way? What effect were you seeking, by
> putting glaze over the slips? Not shininess, I
> gather, but what?
>
>
> >...I just bought a kiln today and my studio os
> >being put together within the next month, but I
> have
> >to tell you that I am terrified to fire my first
> >piece...
>
>
> Test! Make small pieces as test tiles, and do
> lots of variations before applying the results
> to your actual work. Potters who throw 40 coffee
> mugs an hour can afford to use their actual
> work for tests; with work that takes a week or
> more, that's not worth it. Make your tests with
> similar texture to your real work, though, to
> give the nearest approximation of the actual
> surface.
>
>
> >As for engobes....would I have better luck
> maintaining
> >the orignal colors with those as they can be
> applied
> >to bisque ware...
>
>
> Not necessarily, if you put a glaze on top. With
> engobes, though, you may be able to achieve
> whatever surface you are after without having to
> apply a glaze over it.
>
>
> >...Should I fire them once without a bisque
> >firing or should I continue to do the bisque
> firings
> >first?
>
>
> Firing in one shot directly to your final result
> can be a great savings of time and energy, so
> it's something you might work toward. Why bisque
> if you don't have to? But it moght be too soon for
> you to be sure of what's best for your work. Keep
> your options open, and for now, do LOTS OF TESTS!
> I know they're tedious, but it beats using your
> time-consuming real work as a test tile.
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.





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tammy brown on tue 4 may 04

Okay so now I will attempt to relate that which I am
looking for. I love the look of slips and I have even
learned to variate the starkness of these colors by
applying them by different mean....i.e. many different
types of brushes and even sponges...and have been
happy with those results. What it is that I am looking
for that I am not gaining so far is the non-chalky
look. I like it to look finished ( and I am not sure
if that means a flat sheen?). I don't care for the
starkness of straight slips all though they do not
look bad after fired just a little chalky. I know I am
probably confusing myself more than anyone else...
I am just quite determined but a little intimidated I
suppose. I soooooo very much appreciate any advice. I
think I need also to try reading some of the material
suggested on the board.
I need to muster patience...one thing at a time....I
know practice will be my best achievement...I just get
so excited I want it in a day....
I hope my ramblings do not frustrate or bore
anyone....but I am intrigued as well by the knowledge
presented on this board. I have been reading them for
months and never had the courage to inject -- but
then....I figure the only way to truly learn is to ask
--no matter how silly it might seem to me....the very
worst anyone can say....is no or nothing....
Thank you Snail
Tammy in Columbus,OH





--- Snail Scott wrote:
> At 08:36 PM 5/3/04 -0700, Tammy wrote:
> >The
> >instructor guided me towards no shine therefore I
> was
> >surprised that it had a sheen to it...
>
>
> 'Matte' glazes are still a lot shinier than a
> dry-matte slip or engobe; they're just more matte
> than gloss glazes are!
>
>
> >...what should I put over the bisque
> >firing to make the piece look finished without
> >obscuring my original slip colors and adding no
> >sheen?
>
>
> Maybe you don't need anything? What is it about
> the bare fired surface that you don't like? What
> do you want it to look like? What about it seems
> 'unfinished' to you?
>
> Not all surfaces have to be fired, either. It's
> good to learn all the options for fired surfaces,
> but it's not a requirement to use them! Many fine
> pieces of sculpture have non-fired finishes. It's
> less archival that way, and less suitable for
> outdoor display, but for indoor work, there are
> many non-fired options, like wax, acrylic sealants,
> lacquer or shellac, etc.
>
> This isn't a 'cop-out', if the surface that the
> work really needs happens to be a non-fired one.
> It's not cheating, honest! But don't go to these
> options just to avoid learning more about fired
> surfaces, either.
>
> If you can tell us more about what you want, we
> can make some more constructive suggestions.
>
> -Snail Scott
> Reno, Nevada, USA, Earth
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.





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tammy brown on wed 5 may 04

You know what Kathy
I know in my heart of hearts that you are right...
I have these pieces that I feel have turned out
great....but yet at the same time I notice in myself
that each time I do another piece that even though I
thought the last piece was good ...I am getting better
as I go along....so therefore your basic advice is
what I all ready know....I will have to work at what I
am looking for...and I am willing to do that
honestly...
I am attempting to gather a lot of knowledge and put
it together to create my own basic approach....
I am trying to keep myself open to all the awesome
options....and there are many....
and as I go along ....as I did with you....I am
learning to let go of my inhibitions and not be afraid
to ask questions...however dumb they may seem to
another....which maybe they aren't because I am sure
that many or most have been in my shoes....
I have spent most of the years of life learning to
accept time as my teacher....but there is still that
little gnome on my shoulder....telling me to hurry
hurry hurry....
Ah what is life without an issue...
I once heard a line from someone and I often remind
myself..in times of confusion....
Without sadness there is no happiness...and not that I
am sad...just impatient...but I think you grasp the
gist of my point...
Thank you
I need some reference material to gain some basic
knowledge and a studio to attempt my creations....
Point said...if you dont enjoy the fight...what was
the point?????
I work very hard at attempting to keep that in my
stride....
enjoy the confusion....there will be light...at some
point...
or as Snail said
confusion breeds....was it knowledge???HAHA
Thank you Kathy
Forever trekking
Tammy in Columbus






--- Kathy Forer wrote:
> Tammy,
> I wouldn't necessarily credit your reticent teacher
> with preaching
> "touch love" (if indeed that's at all valuable), or
> trying to lead you
> by showing you where not to go, however.... There is
> a point at which
> you need to simply experiment with materials on your
> own and not always
> rely on recipes.
>
> This may well be counter to many people's approaches
> here, and possibly
> even counter-productive if taken too far, but it's
> important to realize
> that what you consider "dumb questions" are not dumb
> at all, but are
> usually questions you need to answer for yourself.
>
> Just as the late, great, teacher and scholar Kirk
> Varnedoe, as related
> in Adam Gopnik's "personal history" in this week's
> New Yorker, taught
> that "You break it down, and then you build it back
> up," so you need to
> look at and understand the systems behind the
> recipes and see what
> steps or actions are necessary to get you where you
> want to go. And
> then experiment.
>
> I don't have Snail or Lila's wide and extensive
> experience and can only
> offer a more primitive point of view, but that
> outlook prompts me to
> experiment with tentative answers to questions
> posed, to explore
> possibilities. Start with the treatment of a
> surface. You have some
> idea what kind of reflective qualities you want.
> What makes something
> shine? Polish an apple, clean a window, wooden table
> or bicycle.
> Sometimes just buffing will do it, other times you
> need something to
> help it along. How about milk, egg, glaze, paint,
> oil, wax? What do
> they have in common?
>
> If you decide on a "cold" finish, think of what
> materials you know give
> the kind of results you want. Think of what makes
> foods shiny or dull.
> If you select wax as a good material, what kind of
> waxes are available?
> Look up wax in google, dictionary.reference.com and
> a potter's
> dictionary. Visit someone's grandmother's cupboard
> or go to Home Depot.
> See what wax is like, poke it, carve it, warm it in
> your hands, melt
> it, freeze it, smell it, apply it with a brush, with
> a cloth, your
> hands. Play with it.
>
> How and when, -- as you query, and you ask all the
> right questions, but
> really only you can answer them -- do you apply a
> finish? Tiles are
> good, but you also need to experiment with the real
> thing, to lose a
> few. You can, presumably make more. And it's not as
> though you will
> lose them entirely unless they blow, you may just
> need to rescue them
> more strenuously.
>
> I treasure Snail's patient elucidation and
> demystification and Lila
> just offered some excellent-sounding books while
> defending open-source
> recipes. But I bud in to say that while there's
> nothing especially
> wrong or secret about recipes, -- and probably
> you'd come up with your
> own after mixing other people's enough times, -- if
> you are asking the
> questions, you're probably not looking for answers
> so much as a way to
> discover those answers for yourself. But you
> probably know that.
>
> Now I have to go make 500 whatevers ("hand
> sculpture" as k. sam would
> say)...... see if I can catch up to Dolita and bring
> my prices down to
> where I can swear off making road signs.
>
> Kathy F., on a dark and stormy night
>
>
> On May 5, 2004, at 6:01 PM, tammy brown wrote:
>
> > Okay Annie
> > but may I ask some dumb questions??
> > at what point do you wax
> > do you bisque fire first with the slips or do you
> > single fire then wax
> > or do you fire at all???
> > and what type of wax do you use?
> > i have read a little about that
> > i will have to pull some reference material and
> see if
> > i can find that again
> >
> > Thanks
> > Tammy
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.





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Snail Scott on wed 5 may 04

At 03:01 PM 5/5/04 -0700, Tammy wrote:
>at what point do you wax
>do you bisque fire first with the slips or do you
>single fire then wax
>or do you fire at all?


Wax can be a nice surface for sculptural work.
I like the paste waxes that are sold for wood
(Minwax, Johnson's Wax, Trewax, etc.) usually
in the paint-and-finishes aisle of the hardware
store.

After the object has had all the firings you
choose, apply the wax liberally. Use a coarse
stiff brush, not a nice delicate one, or the
clay will wear it away). Wait a few minutes,
then buff with a soft cloth. Colored waxes can
be a nice way to modify a surface, too. (Bright-
colored waxes are seldom light-fast, though.)
You don't have to buff it to a shine, but it
will tend to get slightly buffed naturally from
handling. You can kill the shine again with a
fresh coat of wax, though very thick layers can
get grungy-looking or cloudy. (Wax can also get
cloudy if the object is absorbent and it gets
damp.)

I like to heat the object slightly with a heat
gun or hairdryer (or a few minutes in a kiln
if it's easy to unload warm) before applying
the wax - it will flow smoothly over the
surface and level itself a bit. Don't overwork
warm wax, though; the volatiles (which keep wax
soft in the can, but lets it harden in air)
evaporate quickly and you'll leave brush marks.
Use plenty of wax; it'll find its own proper
thickness.

The color of the slips will change to a greater
or lesser degree depending on the level of
vitrification. Undervitrified slips will look
somewhat as they would if wet. Vitrified slips
(or engobes) will not change very much at all.

-Snail Scott
Reno, Nevada, USA, Earth

Annie Evans on wed 5 may 04

Why don't you wax the slip-coated pieces? It gives the slightest bit of
shine.

Annie Evans

Snail Scott on wed 5 may 04

At 07:06 PM 5/4/04 -0700, Tammy wrote:
>...I have no idea if
>it had tin in it. I used Mason Stains for my slip and
>I did use white but I did not use white with tin.


I didn't mean in the slip, but in the glaze. White
glazes often contain tin. It may not be the problem,
though; it was just a guess.


I bought a Skutt with
>automatic controls...I thought maybe beseeching the help of the
>shop owner to teach me at the least- how to load a
>kiln will be a good start?


A lot depends on the shape and size of the work
you are firing. In general, though, you want to
have a bottom shelf a little up from the floor
of the kiln. Four short posts (an inch or so tall)
will suffice. If you do something that needs the
extra space, you can fire with the bottom shelf
on the floor, or even no bottom shelf at all, but
this is rough on the floor, so don't make a habit
of it. If you have half-shelves, you want to
arrange your four posts so that they are evenly
spaced around the perimeter of the kiln. Each
half-shelf will have a post along the middle of
its round side, and its corners will share a post
with the other half-shelf. (Three points of
support per shelf.) If you have full-round shelves,
you can use three posts per level instead of
four. I find that half-shelves are handy, though,
to accomodate work that's tall but not wide. You
can use a half-shelf alone to get more space for
small stuff.

Either way, you want to always have the posts
for upper shelves directly above the posts below,
never offset, so that the weight is carried
directly down to the post below, not to the
unsupported middle of a shelf.

I recommend using kiln wash on your shelves. Put
it on just one side, not both.

There's a lot about this that is hard to describe
in e-mail, but it's not tough to figure out. Go
to the shop and ask to see a kiln all stacked and
loaded; you'll get it.


>In reference to your idea that thinner glazes do not
>always achieve the results you are looking for.... how
>many coats do you do as a rule out of curiousity?


Basically, the bottom layers of any glaze tend to
mingle with the clay underneath, especially at higher
temperatures, and it actually changes the chemical
composition - it's more like half clay, half glaze.
So, it get the intended effect from a glaze, it needs
to be thick enough to make that thin 'interface zone'
irrelevant to the overall effect. How thick that needs
to be depends on the glaze, but the 'three brushed
coats' isn't a bad rule of thumb to start with. Of
course, you may want the effect of thin glaze; it's
up to you whether you like it or not. "Supposed to
do it that way" doesn't mean squat if it's not what
you want for your own work.


>You mentioned that you can get a subtle sheen I
>believe with engobes?

Yes. Go ahead and try a few recipes, then adjust the
flux levels and see what difference it makes. You may
find something that looks more 'finished' (as you
said) without actually looking shiny. (I hate shiny,
too.)

>...I had thought of
>clear glazes too but I think matte glazes as a rule
>tend to get cloudy

Yes, that's their nature. Most matte glazes are matte
because either 1) they are underfired, and not fully
melted, so aren't fully clear, or 2) they are micro-
crystalline glazes, which grow miniscule crystals in
their melt as they cool. They're invisible to the eye,
but they do cause a slight cloudiness and reduced
transparency. So, making an engobe that will get you to
your desired level of finish without a glaze coating
will give you more control over the result.


>Do you personally have any recommendations for a glaze
>to try?


I'm not being reticent, honestly! My recipes all came
from other people, (with minor modifications) so it
would be silly to try to 'keep' them. Unfortunately, I
am in the middle of moving my studio, and all my books
and recipes are packed up. I have posted recipes to
Clayart before, though, so try the archives - they're
in there somewhere!

(By the way, I'm still not sure what temperature you
are working at. I think you said stoneware, but that's
a pretty general term that covers a wide range.)

I think someone mentioned borax-fluxed engobes. Skip
those; they don't store well after mixing. Look for
frit-fluxed recipes for low to mid-range work, and
feldspar-fluxed recipes for the ^10 range.

As a basic starter method, take your basic slip and
add a pinch of frit to a small batch, and two pinches
to another, and so on, then test the results. It won't
be exact, but you'll get a pretty good idea of what
might be possible.


>Do you throw Snail or do you do sculpture??? Just
>curious?


I scarcely throw at all. I learned the basics of
several styles years ago, but was never interested in
making pottery or even circular-based sculpture.
(Though it's perfectly possible to throw sculpture -
they aren't antithetical concepts.) Thrown forms can
also be a means to generate basic volumes to modify,
but I prefer to coil-build and just directly create
the intended shape.

-Snail Scott
Reno, Nevada, USA, Earth

tammy brown on wed 5 may 04

Okay Annie
but may I ask some dumb questions??
at what point do you wax
do you bisque fire first with the slips or do you
single fire then wax
or do you fire at all???
and what type of wax do you use?
i have read a little about that
i will have to pull some reference material and see if
i can find that again

Thanks
Tammy
-






-- Annie Evans wrote:
> Why don't you wax the slip-coated pieces? It gives
> the slightest bit of
> shine.
>
> Annie Evans
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.
O




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Kathy Forer on wed 5 may 04

Tammy,
I wouldn't necessarily credit your reticent teacher with preaching
"touch love" (if indeed that's at all valuable), or trying to lead you
by showing you where not to go, however.... There is a point at which
you need to simply experiment with materials on your own and not always
rely on recipes.

This may well be counter to many people's approaches here, and possibly
even counter-productive if taken too far, but it's important to realize
that what you consider "dumb questions" are not dumb at all, but are
usually questions you need to answer for yourself.

Just as the late, great, teacher and scholar Kirk Varnedoe, as related
in Adam Gopnik's "personal history" in this week's New Yorker, taught
that "You break it down, and then you build it back up," so you need to
look at and understand the systems behind the recipes and see what
steps or actions are necessary to get you where you want to go. And
then experiment.

I don't have Snail or Lila's wide and extensive experience and can only
offer a more primitive point of view, but that outlook prompts me to
experiment with tentative answers to questions posed, to explore
possibilities. Start with the treatment of a surface. You have some
idea what kind of reflective qualities you want. What makes something
shine? Polish an apple, clean a window, wooden table or bicycle.
Sometimes just buffing will do it, other times you need something to
help it along. How about milk, egg, glaze, paint, oil, wax? What do
they have in common?

If you decide on a "cold" finish, think of what materials you know give
the kind of results you want. Think of what makes foods shiny or dull.
If you select wax as a good material, what kind of waxes are available?
Look up wax in google, dictionary.reference.com and a potter's
dictionary. Visit someone's grandmother's cupboard or go to Home Depot.
See what wax is like, poke it, carve it, warm it in your hands, melt
it, freeze it, smell it, apply it with a brush, with a cloth, your
hands. Play with it.

How and when, -- as you query, and you ask all the right questions, but
really only you can answer them -- do you apply a finish? Tiles are
good, but you also need to experiment with the real thing, to lose a
few. You can, presumably make more. And it's not as though you will
lose them entirely unless they blow, you may just need to rescue them
more strenuously.

I treasure Snail's patient elucidation and demystification and Lila
just offered some excellent-sounding books while defending open-source
recipes. But I bud in to say that while there's nothing especially
wrong or secret about recipes, -- and probably you'd come up with your
own after mixing other people's enough times, -- if you are asking the
questions, you're probably not looking for answers so much as a way to
discover those answers for yourself. But you probably know that.

Now I have to go make 500 whatevers ("hand sculpture" as k. sam would
say)...... see if I can catch up to Dolita and bring my prices down to
where I can swear off making road signs.

Kathy F., on a dark and stormy night


On May 5, 2004, at 6:01 PM, tammy brown wrote:

> Okay Annie
> but may I ask some dumb questions??
> at what point do you wax
> do you bisque fire first with the slips or do you
> single fire then wax
> or do you fire at all???
> and what type of wax do you use?
> i have read a little about that
> i will have to pull some reference material and see if
> i can find that again
>
> Thanks
> Tammy

tammy brown on thu 6 may 04

Oh sorry Snail...I didn't state that well at all...as
I mentioned to Jon I have on this board when I am
overly tired...and the typos and nonsensical reeling
would surely not make sense to me if I were you
reading them..
what I MEANT
was:
I know that I did not use a Mason white stain with
"tin" when I made my slip...I was careful to use one
without..
I knew that you were referring to the fact that there
might have been tin in the white "GLAZE"...whew I
stated that quite poorly...sorry.. I did email the
instructor to ask if that might be the reason for the
color change and again she ignored the question. Oh
well...I only asked so that I could understand.. so
that I may learn which materials work for me and why
they work or don't...maybe she was affronted I don't
know..
that's okay...I will keep trying...I have to rely on
someone more knowledgeable than I am ( which isn't
much as you can see at this point)
Up to this point... my pieces have ranged between
twelve to fifteen inches high and roughly twelve
inches around depending...they are very heavy and
thickly built with coils...clay supports
within..usually figures.. i keep gravitating towards
busts..some of them bigger or at least comparable to
most human heads...
I want to achieve a more stonelike surface I
suppose...as I said... shiny is not for me. I also
like color but not anything that is so stark that is
looks like a dime store ceramic...make sense?
I like the advice about waxes and thank you for the
explanation..that is what I was looking for
How to apply them...
when you stay stiff bristled brushes can you be more
specific possibly?
I can't wait to try that.
I mentioned to Jon that I have tended to overwork my
pieces..by making them smooth and then trying to rough
them up....told me by a past instructor..
now I am getting much better at achieving a rougher
texture from the start...sometimes knowing when to
stop can be the hardest part..you keep thinking...if I
just do a little more here it will be even better...
I appreciate your advice on kiln loading...
by the way do you need more than one coat of kiln wash
on the shelves..and do you ever have to reapply it?

I just didn't realize that this thinking applies to
many types of art...so that is moving along..
I am using a low fire earthenware clay -a white
sculpture clay -has fine grog and seems suitable ..
i like the working texture of this body..The firing
range is cone 06-04.
Do you mind if I ask what sort of sculpture you do and
what type of clay you like?
By the way I have played around with store bought
glazes and had HORRID luck with them...I would prefer
to mix my own....and this is part of the reason why I
am so interested in trying to make my own...part of my
bad luck was the application but I could not seem to
get a nice texture in the application. I probably
needed to water them down a little...but again..
Can you tell me what types of raw materials that are
used as fluxes? How much "flux" do you need in a mix?
I need to slow down and stop trying to build Rome in a
day...I just get excited...
though I may not have sounded like that...
why are you moving your studio by the way...do you
need more space? Than must not be fun...trying to put
one together has not been easy...then moving it after
you get established...well...
Okay before I risk another jumble or rantings (sheesh
that was bad!) I will try to ask fewer questions at a
time...
Thank you Snail for your advice and your
patience...though that may be running thin...
Tammy







--- Snail Scott wrote:
> At 07:06 PM 5/4/04 -0700, Tammy wrote:
> >...I have no idea if
> >it had tin in it. I used Mason Stains for my slip
> and
> >I did use white but I did not use white with tin.
>
>
> I didn't mean in the slip, but in the glaze. White
> glazes often contain tin. It may not be the problem,
> though; it was just a guess.
>
>
> I bought a Skutt with
> >automatic controls...I thought maybe beseeching the
> help of the
> >shop owner to teach me at the least- how to load a
> >kiln will be a good start?
>
>
> A lot depends on the shape and size of the work
> you are firing. In general, though, you want to
> have a bottom shelf a little up from the floor
> of the kiln. Four short posts (an inch or so tall)
> will suffice. If you do something that needs the
> extra space, you can fire with the bottom shelf
> on the floor, or even no bottom shelf at all, but
> this is rough on the floor, so don't make a habit
> of it. If you have half-shelves, you want to
> arrange your four posts so that they are evenly
> spaced around the perimeter of the kiln. Each
> half-shelf will have a post along the middle of
> its round side, and its corners will share a post
> with the other half-shelf. (Three points of
> support per shelf.) If you have full-round shelves,
> you can use three posts per level instead of
> four. I find that half-shelves are handy, though,
> to accomodate work that's tall but not wide. You
> can use a half-shelf alone to get more space for
> small stuff.
>
> Either way, you want to always have the posts
> for upper shelves directly above the posts below,
> never offset, so that the weight is carried
> directly down to the post below, not to the
> unsupported middle of a shelf.
>
> I recommend using kiln wash on your shelves. Put
> it on just one side, not both.
>
> There's a lot about this that is hard to describe
> in e-mail, but it's not tough to figure out. Go
> to the shop and ask to see a kiln all stacked and
> loaded; you'll get it.
>
>
> >In reference to your idea that thinner glazes do
> not
> >always achieve the results you are looking for....
> how
> >many coats do you do as a rule out of curiousity?
>
>
> Basically, the bottom layers of any glaze tend to
> mingle with the clay underneath, especially at
> higher
> temperatures, and it actually changes the chemical
> composition - it's more like half clay, half glaze.
> So, it get the intended effect from a glaze, it
> needs
> to be thick enough to make that thin 'interface
> zone'
> irrelevant to the overall effect. How thick that
> needs
> to be depends on the glaze, but the 'three brushed
> coats' isn't a bad rule of thumb to start with. Of
> course, you may want the effect of thin glaze; it's
> up to you whether you like it or not. "Supposed to
> do it that way" doesn't mean squat if it's not what
> you want for your own work.
>
>
> >You mentioned that you can get a subtle sheen I
> >believe with engobes?
>
> Yes. Go ahead and try a few recipes, then adjust the
> flux levels and see what difference it makes. You
> may
> find something that looks more 'finished' (as you
> said) without actually looking shiny. (I hate shiny,
> too.)
>
> >...I had thought of
> >clear glazes too but I think matte glazes as a rule
> >tend to get cloudy
>
> Yes, that's their nature. Most matte glazes are
> matte
> because either 1) they are underfired, and not fully
> melted, so aren't fully clear, or 2) they are micro-
> crystalline glazes, which grow miniscule crystals in
> their melt as they cool. They're invisible to the
> eye,
> but they do cause a slight cloudiness and reduced
> transparency. So, making an engobe that will get you
> to
> your desired level of finish without a glaze coating
> will give you more control over the result.
>
>
> >Do you personally have any recommendations for a
> glaze
> >to try?
>
>
> I'm not being reticent, honestly! My recipes all
> came
> from other people, (with minor modifications) so it
> would be silly to try to 'keep' them. Unfortunately,
> I
> am in the middle of moving my studio, and all my
> books
> and recipes are packed up. I have posted recipes to
> Clayart before, though, so try the archives -
> they're
> in there somewhere!
>
> (By the way, I'm still not sure what temperature you
> are working at. I think you said stoneware, but
> that's
> a pretty general term that covers a wide range.)
>
> I think someone mentioned borax-fluxed engobes. Skip
> those; they don't store well after mixing. Look for
> frit-fluxed recipes for low to mid-range work, and
> feldspar-fluxed recipes for the ^10 range.
>
> As a basic starter method, take your basic slip and
> add a pinch of frit to a small batch, and two
> pinches
> to another, and so on, then test the results. It
> won't
> be exact, but you'll get a pretty good idea of what
> might be possible.
>
>
> >Do you throw Snail or do you do sculpture??? Just
> >curious?
>
>
> I scarcely throw at all. I learned the basics of
> several styles years ago, but was never interested
> in
> making pottery or even circular-based sculpture.
> (Though it's perfectly possible to throw sculpture -
> they aren't antithetical concepts.) Thrown forms can
> also be a means to generate basic volumes to modify,
> but I prefer to coil-build and just directly create
> the intended shape.
>
> -Snail Scott
> Reno, Nevada, USA, Earth
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.





__________________________________
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http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover

tammy brown on thu 6 may 04

-
Oh and one more thing...if I want to make engobe from
the clay body I am sculpting with....or maybe you
suggested another mix as the clay body has fine
grog...
I am not quite sure or adept at how to separate that
when I reduce the clay body with water...I always use
an 80 mesh sieve after I have mixed it...and have not
had too much of problem in slip mixtures with the
texture of the grog in the clay
Tammy








-- Snail Scott wrote:
> At 07:06 PM 5/4/04 -0700, Tammy wrote:
> >...I have no idea if
> >it had tin in it. I used Mason Stains for my slip
> and
> >I did use white but I did not use white with tin.
>
>
> I didn't mean in the slip, but in the glaze. White
> glazes often contain tin. It may not be the problem,
> though; it was just a guess.
>
>
> I bought a Skutt with
> >automatic controls...I thought maybe beseeching the
> help of the
> >shop owner to teach me at the least- how to load a
> >kiln will be a good start?
>
>
> A lot depends on the shape and size of the work
> you are firing. In general, though, you want to
> have a bottom shelf a little up from the floor
> of the kiln. Four short posts (an inch or so tall)
> will suffice. If you do something that needs the
> extra space, you can fire with the bottom shelf
> on the floor, or even no bottom shelf at all, but
> this is rough on the floor, so don't make a habit
> of it. If you have half-shelves, you want to
> arrange your four posts so that they are evenly
> spaced around the perimeter of the kiln. Each
> half-shelf will have a post along the middle of
> its round side, and its corners will share a post
> with the other half-shelf. (Three points of
> support per shelf.) If you have full-round shelves,
> you can use three posts per level instead of
> four. I find that half-shelves are handy, though,
> to accomodate work that's tall but not wide. You
> can use a half-shelf alone to get more space for
> small stuff.
>
> Either way, you want to always have the posts
> for upper shelves directly above the posts below,
> never offset, so that the weight is carried
> directly down to the post below, not to the
> unsupported middle of a shelf.
>
> I recommend using kiln wash on your shelves. Put
> it on just one side, not both.
>
> There's a lot about this that is hard to describe
> in e-mail, but it's not tough to figure out. Go
> to the shop and ask to see a kiln all stacked and
> loaded; you'll get it.
>
>
> >In reference to your idea that thinner glazes do
> not
> >always achieve the results you are looking for....
> how
> >many coats do you do as a rule out of curiousity?
>
>
> Basically, the bottom layers of any glaze tend to
> mingle with the clay underneath, especially at
> higher
> temperatures, and it actually changes the chemical
> composition - it's more like half clay, half glaze.
> So, it get the intended effect from a glaze, it
> needs
> to be thick enough to make that thin 'interface
> zone'
> irrelevant to the overall effect. How thick that
> needs
> to be depends on the glaze, but the 'three brushed
> coats' isn't a bad rule of thumb to start with. Of
> course, you may want the effect of thin glaze; it's
> up to you whether you like it or not. "Supposed to
> do it that way" doesn't mean squat if it's not what
> you want for your own work.
>
>
> >You mentioned that you can get a subtle sheen I
> >believe with engobes?
>
> Yes. Go ahead and try a few recipes, then adjust the
> flux levels and see what difference it makes. You
> may
> find something that looks more 'finished' (as you
> said) without actually looking shiny. (I hate shiny,
> too.)
>
> >...I had thought of
> >clear glazes too but I think matte glazes as a rule
> >tend to get cloudy
>
> Yes, that's their nature. Most matte glazes are
> matte
> because either 1) they are underfired, and not fully
> melted, so aren't fully clear, or 2) they are micro-
> crystalline glazes, which grow miniscule crystals in
> their melt as they cool. They're invisible to the
> eye,
> but they do cause a slight cloudiness and reduced
> transparency. So, making an engobe that will get you
> to
> your desired level of finish without a glaze coating
> will give you more control over the result.
>
>
> >Do you personally have any recommendations for a
> glaze
> >to try?
>
>
> I'm not being reticent, honestly! My recipes all
> came
> from other people, (with minor modifications) so it
> would be silly to try to 'keep' them. Unfortunately,
> I
> am in the middle of moving my studio, and all my
> books
> and recipes are packed up. I have posted recipes to
> Clayart before, though, so try the archives -
> they're
> in there somewhere!
>
> (By the way, I'm still not sure what temperature you
> are working at. I think you said stoneware, but
> that's
> a pretty general term that covers a wide range.)
>
> I think someone mentioned borax-fluxed engobes. Skip
> those; they don't store well after mixing. Look for
> frit-fluxed recipes for low to mid-range work, and
> feldspar-fluxed recipes for the ^10 range.
>
> As a basic starter method, take your basic slip and
> add a pinch of frit to a small batch, and two
> pinches
> to another, and so on, then test the results. It
> won't
> be exact, but you'll get a pretty good idea of what
> might be possible.
>
>
> >Do you throw Snail or do you do sculpture??? Just
> >curious?
>
>
> I scarcely throw at all. I learned the basics of
> several styles years ago, but was never interested
> in
> making pottery or even circular-based sculpture.
> (Though it's perfectly possible to throw sculpture -
> they aren't antithetical concepts.) Thrown forms can
> also be a means to generate basic volumes to modify,
> but I prefer to coil-build and just directly create
> the intended shape.
>
> -Snail Scott
> Reno, Nevada, USA, Earth
>
>
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Lee Love on thu 6 may 04

Kathy Forer wrote:

> Now I have to go make 500 whatevers ("hand sculpture" as k. sam would
> say)...... see if I can catch up to Dolita and bring my prices down to
> where I can swear off making road signs.


I am doing some tests, both of imprinting with an engraved woodblock
directly on clay and then applying zogan inlay, and also by making
oxide woodblock prints on paper and firing the paper decal on the
Shigaraki clay. Will have these tests in the next firing, along with
around 100 glaze test tiles.

Making "regular" wood block prints too. At our club group show
in Mooka, all the pottery related prints sold (we bought one from our
classmate Nakamura-san, of his friend's noborigama.). I won a Nikon AF
SLR 35mm and lens on Ebay for $87.00 Going over to the Messe and
Hamada Reference museum when I get it to photograph noborigamas when it
arrives. Do my next prints of these.

Maybe art can help "subsidize" my pottery. :-)

--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://potters.blogspot.com/ Commentary On Pottery

Kathy Forer on thu 6 may 04

On May 5, 2004, at 11:07 PM, tammy brown wrote:

> I am attempting to gather a lot of knowledge and put
> it together to create my own basic approach....
> I am trying to keep myself open to all the awesome
> options....and there are many....
> and as I go along ....as I did with you....I am
> learning to let go of my inhibitions and not be afraid
> to ask questions...however dumb they may seem to
> another....which maybe they aren't because I am sure
> that many or most have been in my shoes....

That sounds great! My point is only to say that seeking answers from
knowledgeable people and getting great advice and understanding in
return is invaluable, but so is making your own mistakes and
discoveries.

The kind of teaching that allows students to wallow in error can be
abysmal. Yet it is important to allow yourself, as student, the freedom
to experiment and learn your own way.

There are basics and there are basic glaze recipes. You build on those
foundations. You also try to understand what it means or how it works,
so you can remake it in your own image. Or just accept transferred
knowledge, that's okay too, but not when you're asking too many
questions. Then you need to ask more, please, not stop, but realize
when you're so full of questions that it's the inquiry itself that is
important. The process you go through to arrive at a finish will teach
you how to make your own finishes. It sounds a bit circular.

I believe this is true in craft as well as art. Learn your ABCs, then
how to put them into words, then construct them further. But when
you're making long flowing paragraphs, don't forget the structure
underneath. Learn the structure.

I once sprued a wax 'sculpture' entirely upside down, taking maybe two
hours. It wasn't until I was ready to place it in investment that the
teacher shared a laugh with me. Not funny, but I learned the lesson not
to rely on that teacher, unfortunately. I did learn that I was relying
on someone else's knowledge and needed to find my own.


Kathy Forer

Annie Evans on thu 6 may 04

The wax is the last thing you do - after firing. You can single fire or
not. The best wax is bowling alley wax or any paste floor wax. Think of
its use on floors - it just adds a little shine.

Snail Scott on fri 7 may 04

At 07:57 PM 5/6/04 -0700, you wrote:
>...if I want to make engobe from
>the clay body I am sculpting with....or maybe you
>suggested another mix as the clay body has fine
>grog...I always use
>an 80 mesh sieve after I have mixed it...


That's pretty much it. The annoyance of that process
is one reason that many people simply start from
scratch, though.

-Snail Scott
Reno, Nevada, USA, Earth

p.s. Try not to leave the entire previous post
in place when you respond to Clayart; after a
while, the posts get really long, and that's a
problem for both the moderator and for those
folks who read it in digest form.

-S.