Richard Aerni on tue 4 may 04
One of the topics that came up over and over at the clay show was the
problem of attribution of sources. People are tired of seeing their pots
made by someone else without attribution. People are tired of seeing their
glazes, or other's glazes, used by potters and called "Their glaze" (fill
in potter's name) without attribution. If you're using Shaner's Glaze,
please give Dave Shaner credit. If you're using the Secrest Temmoku recipe
from Alfred in the 1950's, please give Mr. Secrest a bit of credit. If
you're using a Val Cushing glaze, please give Val his due by using his name
on the glaze. Changing one ingredient a couple of 1/10s of a per cent does
NOT make it your glaze. Subbing one ingredient for a similar one doesn't
really make it another glaze. Placing a piece of tape over the old name on
the bucket with another name doesn't make it another glaze. We have a long
history of ceramics, and a long history of sharing and borrowing. It would
be so much more honest to give credit where credit is due...it is a way of
honoring those who came before us without diminishing one's own work.
Respectfully,
Richard Aerni
sdr on tue 4 may 04
Richard said:
> One of the topics that came up over and over at the clay show was the
> problem of attribution of sources. People are tired of seeing their pots
> made by someone else without attribution. People are tired of seeing
their
> glazes, or other's glazes, used by potters and called "Their glaze" (fill
> in potter's name) without attribution. If you're using Shaner's Glaze,
> please give Dave Shaner credit.........
It is true, Richard, that people use others work/glazes/ideas without
giving credit to the source. And it is indeed tiresome, and even
embarrassing
sometimes, when it happens. Unfortunately, the person embarrassed is
never the one making another's work without so much as a by-your-leave.
On the whole, though, I don't think there's anything to be done about
it. If work is copied consciously and deliberately, the maker does not
care. If it is unconscious, the maker doesn't know. So - it happens,
and has from the beginnings of time. Anytime someone gives a workshop,
or teaches a class, then the students/attendees might well make an effort
to make the work they've been learning about. That's harmless, so long
as they know the source and give credit (I know, they don't do it often).
What isn't so harmless is the professionals, would-be professionals, and
(may they be forgiven) TEACHERS who take credit for others work
and research. If it was biochemistry, there'd be a lawsuit. If it's art -
well, life's tough.
My own funniest story in that regard was a person in South America
(and one in France, come to think of it) who wrote me asking for
DETAILED instruction of how to make textured work like mine because,
and I quote, " I think I could win a prize here, no one else here has
seen work like that". I was seriously offended for about ten minutes. Then
I sent them a copy of a how-to article I'd written, and wished them
luck. What the hell. People do what they do. Not gonna change it.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
Antoinette Badenhorst on tue 4 may 04
This is a subject that I've been very outspoken about in the past and
what made me very unpopular. I once (10 years ago) walked into a store
and saw "my pots" there and new that I did not sell any to that
particular store. With a closer look I saw that it was replicas of what
I made, but they were so unfinished that I was mad at that moment. At
least if you copy me, don't do it in a way that people will say that my
standard went down!
For that reason I do not give out my glaze recipes (weather I use
someone else's or my own), because I want to see more leaders in the
potters world and less followers. That is also the way that I teach. I
try to encourage my students to come up with their own designs. That is
not the easiest thing in the world, particularly when they do not know
all the ceramic materials yet, but I still try.
Antoinette Badenhorst
105 Westwood Circle
Saltillo MS
38866
662 869 1651
www.clayandcanvas.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Richard
Aerni
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 8:02 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Things we talked about at the pottery show
One of the topics that came up over and over at the clay show was the
problem of attribution of sources. People are tired of seeing their
pots
made by someone else without attribution. People are tired of seeing
their
glazes, or other's glazes, used by potters and called "Their glaze"
(fill
in potter's name) without attribution. If you're using Shaner's Glaze,
please give Dave Shaner credit. If you're using the Secrest Temmoku
recipe
from Alfred in the 1950's, please give Mr. Secrest a bit of credit. If
you're using a Val Cushing glaze, please give Val his due by using his
name
on the glaze. Changing one ingredient a couple of 1/10s of a per cent
does
NOT make it your glaze. Subbing one ingredient for a similar one
doesn't
really make it another glaze. Placing a piece of tape over the old name
on
the bucket with another name doesn't make it another glaze. We have a
long
history of ceramics, and a long history of sharing and borrowing. It
would
be so much more honest to give credit where credit is due...it is a way
of
honoring those who came before us without diminishing one's own work.
Respectfully,
Richard Aerni
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Richard Aerni on tue 4 may 04
On Tue, 4 May 2004 09:27:11 -0500, sdr wrote:
>
>It is true, Richard, that people use others work/glazes/ideas without
>giving credit to the source. And it is indeed tiresome, and even
>embarrassing
>sometimes, when it happens. >
Hi Dannon,
It's true that there is little to be done about copying/imitation. And I
think that was the conclusion of most in the conversation there...who all
knew full well that students/beginners learn by imitating what they admire,
and that all learn by assimilating bits and pieces of what they see and
then synthesizing all into their own particular "blend" which can become
style. The conclusions became a little less clear when it was an
accomplished potter who became a competitor by that assimilation. But
you're right, there is little to be done about it.
The greater part of the conversations had to do with glaze attributions.
And it was not so much a sour grapes type of conversation, so much as just
doing honor to your forebears by passing their names on with their
contributions to the field, which in this case were glazes. It's a part of
our heritage, our field's history, and we lose a little when it becomes
erased or blurred.
In any case, there is little or anything that can be done to change it.
But, as an exercise, do an ingredient grid sometime and plug similar glazes
into it, and you'll probably be surprised how "similar" many of them are.
Best,
Richard Aerni
Rochester, NY...back to work now
Gene and Dolita Dohrman on tue 4 may 04
Dannon wrote:
.....who wrote me asking for
> DETAILED instruction of how to make textured work like mine because,
> and I quote, " I think I could win a prize here, no one else here has
> seen work like that". I was seriously offended for about ten minutes.
Then
> I sent them a copy of a how-to article I'd written, and wished them
> luck. What the hell. People do what they do. Not gonna change it.
It is interesting that this has come up at just this time for me. I have a
pitcher that I am going to take a picture of and send it into the "Pitcher"
website that Chris has set up for us. I guess it is time to put a few of my
pots 'out there'. The pitcher was inspired by Dannon Rhudy's pieced pots.
While the outcome looks nothing like Dannon's pitcher on the website, I
still feel that I somehow need to give her credit and do not know how to do
this when one just has a picture with no explanation on display. Her method
of piecing a pot together inside of another thrown pot is one of the most
awesome techniques I have come across. I plan to make more of course, and
they will definitely not be copies of what Dannon makes. However, I
certainly believe she deserves most of the credit when they come out
successfully.
Dolita
dohrman@insightbb.com
Louisville, KY
Earth and Fire Pottery on tue 4 may 04
Dear Richard-
I couldn't agree more! This is a subject close to my heart. When we bemoan that there is no tradition in America, this is one of the main reasons! I am proud to be a potter swimming in this sea of plastic and sensationalism, sometimes feeling like a throwback to days when community mattered and self worth wasn't superficial.
I am very grateful to those who have helped me along the way, and I want everyone to know who these people are who worked so hard to provide me with tools which i so freely use, given to me with sweat and love by these people. I love that potters give so freely, and attribution of others work is essential to keeping this alive, IMHO. Community is important to me, and I want the rest of the world to see our ceramic community as the vital, strong and thriving entity that it really is.
So I do my best to make attribution wherever possible, not to brag that I learned this from this person or that, but to show that I learned this from some very talented and hard working people, and we're all moving forward together on this very amazing journey.
Overly Romantic viewpoint? I've been accused of that, but that's me.
gregg
where the weather is starting to turn hot and the full moon has all the cats and dogs in the neighborhood on pins and needles all night
Gregg Allen Lindsley
Earth and Fire Pottery
Instructor - Mendocino College
Mail only: PO Box 402
Cobb, Ca. 95426
UPS etc.: 10325 Brookside Drive
Whispering Pines, Ca. 95426
e mail: gerrg@yahoo.com
http://www.earthandfirepottery.net
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Earl Brunner on wed 5 may 04
When I first found my way back to clay after a hiatus of 15 years or so, I
started again by taking classes from Tom Coleman. Once a week I would go
and watch him demonstrate. But most of the time I didn't work in the
studio, preferring to work in my own studio where I didn't have to worry
about leaving my part finished work on the wheel. Tom is such a great potter
to learn from. I really liked going to class to see what he was going to
teach and as much as anything else, to just be around other potters again.
Most people in the class would watch the demo and then get on a wheel and
try the process or technique. I on the other hand, often didn't get to the
idea at home for several days and I found that I really enjoyed letting the
idea sit in my mind for a few days before trying to use either the technique
or the process. I found that the added time before doing the work allowed
me to put more of me into the process. I "think" that my results often
looked more like "my work" and less like Tom's than that of the other
students who immediately sat down and copied the technique.
While people like Tom or Dannon have a distinctive style that might make
their work easily recognized, generally there is little out there that is
truly original, time and time again I find stuff in a historical context
that shows this. The key is to take what you learn, and extend it, change
it, modify it. If you do this and don't just copy, I don't see the problem.
And I doubt anyone else will either. Be good enough of a potter that when
people see your work, they don't see a clone of your teacher.
Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Brian Haviland
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 10:07 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Things we talked about at the pottery show
Hi Dannon, All
One of the first clay events I ever attended was one featuring Dannon
doing her texture work at acers in Columbus Ohio. I thought that
the workshop was an awesome experience ,but what really impressed
me was how much information she shared with the group. I went home
and sat at the wheel and made a couple pieces and came close to
what she showed us. They are on a shelf in the studio and when
someone asks about them i tell them about the work-shop.
They want me to make them so they can sell them to their customers.
I just can't see myself making $$$$ from other people's creations
and i tell them NO CAN DO... Some would say that i should go ahead
and do it and give credit where credit is due, but i want to sell work
that is mine.My ideas,My design. I have come up with a few good ideas
with all the raku i have been doing.... and I'm sure i will open up an old
issue
of CM and find it in there from 5 years ago. But until then i will sell it
and
say that i came up with it on my own (hey I'm not lying) If i don't copy it
right out of a work-shop or book i figure i can say that. Am i right here
???
Brian
Brian Haviland
Ivor and Olive Lewis on wed 5 may 04
Dear Richard Aerni,
I agree, it is very important to acknowledge one's sources.
About ten years ago, when I discarded recipe books as sources for my
working materials I did a survey of the collection of recipe. I sorted
through Chappell, De Boos and Cooper.
This survey seemed to show that the proportion derived from Leech's
4-3-2-1 "Cone 8 Limestone Glaze" amounted to about 80%
I am concerned that if all that happens is that common recipe groups
are tinkered with, tweaked to get them to mature at lower temperatures
by adding Boron Frits and the like, we will avoid learning new
insights and continue reinforce the old "Rules" and "Limits"
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
.
Brian Haviland on wed 5 may 04
At 09:27 AM 5/4/04 -0500, you wrote:
>My own funniest story in that regard was a person in South America
>(and one in France, come to think of it) who wrote me asking for
>DETAILED instruction of how to make textured work like mine because,
>and I quote, " I think I could win a prize here, no one else here has
>seen work like that". I was seriously offended for about ten minutes. Then
>I sent them a copy of a how-to article I'd written, and wished them
>luck. What the hell. People do what they do. Not gonna change it.
>
>regards
>
>Dannon Rhudy
>
>_
Hi Dannon, All
One of the first clay events I ever attended was one featuring Dannon
doing her texture work at acers in Columbus Ohio. I thought that
the workshop was an awesome experience ,but what really impressed
me was how much information she shared with the group. I went home
and sat at the wheel and made a couple pieces and came close to
what she showed us. They are on a shelf in the studio and when
someone asks about them i tell them about the work-shop.
They want me to make them so they can sell them to their customers.
I just can't see myself making $$$$ from other people's creations
and i tell them NO CAN DO... Some would say that i should go ahead
and do it and give credit where credit is due, but i want to sell work
that is mine.My ideas,My design. I have come up with a few good ideas
with all the raku i have been doing.... and I'm sure i will open up an old
issue
of CM and find it in there from 5 years ago. But until then i will sell it and
say that i came up with it on my own (hey I'm not lying) If i don't copy it
right out of a work-shop or book i figure i can say that. Am i right here ???
Brian
Brian Haviland
Fountain city, Indiana
Haviland Stone Pottery & Raku
bnhavil@greentokai.com
>_____________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
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Neal on wed 5 may 04
I am a hobbyist potter and sell my works three or four
times a year at group shows with our local potters guild or
shows at the local craft centers. It would be lovely to
have the space to save every piece I've made in a workshop,
but I sell them.
I picked up two vases and a teapot last night that I made
in the wonderful workshop that Don Davis did here last
month. The influence of his work is obvious in these
pieces, but they're not exact knockoffs. Some of the other
potters in the workshop made pieces that looked more like
his work. I tried to incorporate the techniques and some
elements of his style yet still let my style show through.
I'll be incorporating some of his techniques into my future
works but probably won't be doing any more pieces like
these. But they'll be for sale the next time I do a show.
I'll gladly credit him for their inspiration if anyone
asks--just like I would give credit to all the other great
teachers whose classes and workshops I've taken, especially
when someone asks why there's only one of something.
Neal
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Lee Love on thu 6 may 04
Earl Brunner wrote:
>it, modify it. If you do this and don't just copy, I don't see the problem.
>And I doubt anyone else will either. Be good enough of a potter that when
>people see your work, they don't see a clone of your teacher.
>
>
During my apprenticeship, I gave the Foreman and head thrower
fits, because I always put a little bit of my self into the work I was
trying to copy. :-)
> "My close embrace of the earth... a seeking after
> identity with some primal matter beyond personalities and possessions."
> 1968 Noguchi
A big problem in forcing originality is that it looks
forced. When my mentor was visiting from America and we were having
dinner with my teacher, my mentor brought up the observation that too
much "original" work "looks like it is trying too hard." Novelty is
not originality. The difference between the two, is that the novel
is just "change for changes sake" while originality comes out of the
character or nature of the craftsman. Originality sometimes requires
patience.
> "The problem is how does the individual artist today approach
> folkcraft. Of course the answer is that he should look after his
> character first. The problem of his own character must come foremost.
> With one's intellect, with one's mind, one can understand what
> tradition means. The folk art formula may be fed though the mind and
> through the intellect. But in work, what comes out must come out
> through one's own fingertips, one's own hands, otherwise it is no work
> at all." Shoji Hamada
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://potters.blogspot.com/ Commentary On Pottery
Earth and Fire Pottery on thu 6 may 04
Dear Richard-
I couldn't agree more! This is a subject close to my heart. When we bemoan that there is no tradition in America, this is one of the main reasons! I am proud to be a potter swimming in this sea of plastic and sensationalism, sometimes feeling like a throwback to days when community mattered and self worth wasn't superficial.
I am very grateful to those who have helped me along the way, and I want everyone to know who these people are who worked so hard to provide me with tools which i so freely use, given to me with sweat and love by these people. I love that potters give so freely, and attribution of others work is essential to keeping this alive, IMHO. Community is important to me, and I want the rest of the world to see our ceramic community as the vital, strong and thriving entity that it really is.
So I do my best to make attribution wherever possible, not to brag that I learned this from this person or that, but to show that I learned this from some very talented and hard working people, and we're all moving forward together on this very amazing journey.
Overly Romantic viewpoint? I've been accused of that, but that's me.
So whenever I get a chance to make an attribution, like naming a whistle for someone, i let people know where i got it. And when something changes enough that there are few traces left of the original, it becomes mine. Even so, I like to tell of its genesis whenever I can. I like being part of an ongoing process, to have a sense of history and being part of an ever growing story.
It also helps our customers understand that there is more to this than what they can see. It gives depth and added value to the work.
gregg
Gregg Allen Lindsley
Earth and Fire Pottery
Instructor - Mendocino College
Mail only: PO Box 402
Cobb, Ca. 95426
UPS etc.: 10325 Brookside Drive
Whispering Pines, Ca. 95426
e mail: gerrg@yahoo.com
http://www.earthandfirepottery.net
---------------------------------
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sdr on thu 6 may 04
......i want to sell work
> that is mine.My ideas,My design. I have come up with a few good ideas
> with all the raku i have been doing.... and I'm sure i will open up an old
> issue
> of CM and find it in there from 5 years ago.> .......
Well, that happens to all of us sometime or other, some
aspect or other of our work. So don't worry about it
when the time comes. You know your own work best.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
Ivor and Olive Lewis on fri 7 may 04
Dear Earl Brunner,
Your process of learning from demonstrations is sound. To observe and
record in your mind, or via notes and photos and then reflect on that
experience using memory to fill in the finer details will get you
further along the pathway to personal success than dashing of to try
things out as soon as the demonstrator has completed his or her task.
Reflection and Introspection are important in the process of learning.
One of the major functions of the "Homework" is to give time over to
these reinforcing processes. As you imply, it also propels a person
along the road towards self realisation.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
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