Vince Pitelka on sat 12 jun 04
I really debated whether to send this post. I was pretty angry last =
night about the rudeness that Lee has shown towards Ron Roy, and I am =
glad I did not write a post then in teh heat of the moment. But I =
decided I just couldn't let it go, and needed to write something, to get =
it off my chest. I hope it doesn't cause further problems. =20
To Ron and Lee, please forgive me for talking ABOUT you rather than TO =
you in this post. =20
This is a bizarre situation, because here we have two of the most active =
contributors to Clayart, both good people, both talented potters, both =
offering much good information. Everything I know about each of them =
tells me that there is a basis for mutual respect, understanding, and =
even friendship. So what the hell is going on? =20
For a very long time Ron Roy has been a fine potter, a clay/glaze =
chemist, author, and a consultant to clay companies, potters, and =
industry. On this list he is known for his gentle but authoratative =
manner, and the reliability of his information. He gives of himself so =
generously, and if you know him personally, he is a kind and gentle soul =
with very high standards of ethics and interpersonal behavior. =20
Lee Love is an experienced potter with great ability, although I do not =
know much about his background. As we all know, he is currently working =
in Japan, where he served a pottery apprenticeship and is now working on =
his own. This is the dream of many American potters, and Lee is living =
this dream. He is a lucky man. =20
During the recent discussion about copper leaching from Oribes, Lee =
maintained that we simply need to educate our customers. Ron, being a =
very strong and outspoken advocate for safe ceramic wares, disagreed, =
because there is no way to pass that education on with the pot when it =
changes hands. Inexplicably, Lee chose to belittle Ron in a way that =
was arrogant and disrespectful. =20
Now, in this current discussion about using soluble materials in glazes, =
Ron said that potters generally avoid the use of soluble materials in =
clay and glazes. Again, Lee chose to belittle Ron in a way that was =
arrogant and disrespectful. =20
Okay, here are some fundamental truths. Sorry to sound so absolute, but =
I think that anyone who really stops to think about them will agree. =20
First fundamental truth - POTTERS GENERALLY DO AVOID THE USE OF SOLUBLE =
MATERIALS IN CLAY AND GLAZES! That is a fact, because it is just plain =
common sense. OF COURSE there are exceptions - small amounts of =
flocculant or deflocculant aldded to clay or glaze, glazes using =
unwashed ash, glazes like some shinos that use soda ash, raku glazes =
that use borax. These are soluble materials - they go into solution, =
dissolving in the water of the glaze or clay. Gerstley borate, soda =
spar, and nephylene syenite are NOT soluble materials. They do release =
some soluble alkalines over time, but that is a different issue. David =
Hendley's use of deflocculant in green-glazing is also a separate issue, =
because the solubles do not soak into the claybody. Why are some people =
grasping at straws to try to show that potters frequently use soluble =
materials in clay and/or glazes? Generally, potters have avoided the =
use of soluble materials in clays and glazes. =20
Second fundamental truth - considering Ron Roy's standing in the =
ceramics community, and his acknowledged reputation nationally and =
internationally, it would be foolish to openly insult him or show open =
disrespect for him in a Clayart post. Who would do that and why? It =
cannot do anything but reflect very badly on the person doing the =
insulting. There is certainly nothing wrong with disagreeing with Ron =
or anyone else on Clayart, but there is little excuse for doing it in =
arrogant, disrespectful terms. =20
No one is infallible, and I have disagreed with Ron on a number of =
occasions, but I hope I have shown him the respect that he (or anyone) =
deserves. =20
I have no desire to show disrespect towards Lee either, but I had to =
write this.
Best wishes -=20
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
John Britt on sun 13 jun 04
Taylor,
You write:
"I think you might be missing the nuance in Vince's statement. He said
'not soluable materials' which I took to mean not materials that go
fully or nearly fully into solution."
I guess I never think of solubility as either - or. Rather I always think
of solubility as existing on a continuum which depends on many factors
like temperature, pH, etc.
Probably enough from me on this one,
John Britt
John Britt on sun 13 jun 04
Vince,
Excellent post.
I am with you all the way except when it comes to saying that nepheline
syenite, gerstley borate, frits, wood ash, etc. are NOT soluble. They
are "slightly soluble" and that is always dependent on time, temperature,
pH, etc. of the water, which varies. And if some of these materials are
dissolved in the water then they could affect the clay body because the
water will be absorbed into it. Now, they may not have a profound effect
upon it, but solubility is not defined in reference to the effect on the
clay body.
Another thing is that solubility is measured under very strict scientific
conditions of temperature, pressure, pH, etc. But in pottery we do not
have scientific conditions. For example: often our water is of varying pH
depending on all the other things we add. So when materials are labeled as
slightly soluble they may, in fact, be soluble in our glaze slurries.
Barium carbonate is a good example. It is listed as insoluble to slightly
soluble but that is measured in pure water. In an acidic solution it can
become soluble. *See Hamer. So flocculated solutions could cause it to be
soluble. Another reason you don't want to mix glazes with your bare hands.
I know many potters try to avoid soluble materials because of problems of
deflocculation but we do use many soluble materials never the less and, in
fact, cannot avoid them. (Frits are an attempt to make ceramic materials
insoluble but they are cerainly not completely insoluble.)
Just my opinion,
John Britt
www.johnbrittpottery.com
Liz Willoughby on sun 13 jun 04
Vince, thank you putting up this post. I applaud your wisdom in
waiting to write after the heat of the moment. Many of us who know
Ron have also been puzzled by Lee's attitude and blatant rudeness. I
think that Lee is certainly in love with his clay, his philosophy,
and the Japanese way. This is a choice he has made, and many of his
posts show passion. But in a way he has tunnel vision, unable to
look at the other side. As I said to Lee in a private post, the knee
jerk responses that he makes regarding Ron, is simply not nice to
read on clayart. Clayart is a place where we can disagree, and
agree, where we can gather information and give it. . . hopefully in
a way that shows respect, and diplomacy.
This statement by you sums up Ron perfectly.
"He gives of himself so generously, and if you know him personally,
he is a kind and gentle soul with very high standards of ethics and
interpersonal behavior."
Meticky Liz
Vince says:
>I really debated whether to send this post. I was pretty angry last
>night about the rudeness that Lee has shown towards Ron Roy, and I
>am glad I did not write a post then in teh heat of the moment. But
>I decided I just couldn't let it go, and needed to write something,
>to get it off my chest. I hope it doesn't cause further problems.
>
>To Ron and Lee, please forgive me for talking ABOUT you rather than
>TO you in this post.
>
>This is a bizarre situation, because here we have two of the most
>active contributors to Clayart, both good people, both talented
>potters, both offering much good information. Everything I know
>about each of them tells me that there is a basis for mutual
>respect, understanding, and even friendship. So what the hell is
>going on?
>
>For a very long time Ron Roy has been a fine potter, a clay/glaze
>chemist, author, and a consultant to clay companies, potters, and
>industry. On this list he is known for his gentle but authoratative
>manner, and the reliability of his information. He gives of himself
>so generously, and if you know him personally, he is a kind and
>gentle soul with very high standards of ethics and interpersonal
>behavior.
>
>Lee Love is an experienced potter with great ability, although I do
>not know much about his background. As we all know, he is currently
>working in Japan, where he served a pottery apprenticeship and is
>now working on his own. This is the dream of many American potters,
>and Lee is living this dream. He is a lucky man.
>
>During the recent discussion about copper leaching from Oribes, Lee
>maintained that we simply need to educate our customers. Ron, being
>a very strong and outspoken advocate for safe ceramic wares,
>disagreed, because there is no way to pass that education on with
>the pot when it changes hands. Inexplicably, Lee chose to belittle
>Ron in a way that was arrogant and disrespectful.
>
>Now, in this current discussion about using soluble materials in
>glazes, Ron said that potters generally avoid the use of soluble
>materials in clay and glazes. Again, Lee chose to belittle Ron in a
>way that was arrogant and disrespectful.
>
>Okay, here are some fundamental truths. Sorry to sound so absolute,
>but I think that anyone who really stops to think about them will
>agree.
>
>First fundamental truth - POTTERS GENERALLY DO AVOID THE USE OF
>SOLUBLE MATERIALS IN CLAY AND GLAZES! That is a fact, because it is
>just plain common sense. OF COURSE there are exceptions - small
>amounts of flocculant or deflocculant aldded to clay or glaze,
>glazes using unwashed ash, glazes like some shinos that use soda
>ash, raku glazes that use borax. These are soluble materials - they
>go into solution, dissolving in the water of the glaze or clay.
>Gerstley borate, soda spar, and nephylene syenite are NOT soluble
>materials. They do release some soluble alkalines over time, but
>that is a different issue. David Hendley's use of deflocculant in
>green-glazing is also a separate issue, because the solubles do not
>soak into the claybody. Why are some people grasping at straws to
>try to show that potters frequently use soluble materials in clay
>and/or glazes? Generally, potters have avoided the use of soluble
>materials in clays and glazes.
>
>Second fundamental truth - considering Ron Roy's standing in the
>ceramics community, and his acknowledged reputation nationally and
>internationally, it would be foolish to openly insult him or show
>open disrespect for him in a Clayart post. Who would do that and
>why? It cannot do anything but reflect very badly on the person
>doing the insulting. There is certainly nothing wrong with
>disagreeing with Ron or anyone else on Clayart, but there is little
>excuse for doing it in arrogant, disrespectful terms.
>
>No one is infallible, and I have disagreed with Ron on a number of
>occasions, but I hope I have shown him the respect that he (or
>anyone) deserves.
>
>I have no desire to show disrespect towards Lee either, but I had to
>write this.
>Best wishes -
>- Vince
>
Hendrix, Taylor J. on sun 13 jun 04
John:
I think you might be missing the nuance in Vince's statement. He said
'not soluable materials' which I took to mean not materials that go
fully or nearly fully into solution. He goes on to say that the above
materials do release an amount of soluable alkalines. This is an
important distinction for the conversation to hand. GB will not totally
disolve in water while borax, as far as I understand, will. That is
all. Ding, ding--Round 2.
Taylor
Waco, Texas, USA
http://www3.baylor.edu/~Taylor_Hendrix/tjpots.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of John Britt
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 1:55 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Ron Roy and Lee Love and Civility
Vince,
Excellent post.
I am with you all the way except when it comes to saying that nepheline
syenite, gerstley borate, frits, wood ash, etc. are NOT soluble. They
are "slightly soluble" and that is always dependent on time,
temperature,
pH, etc. of the water, which varies. ...
Ivor and Olive Lewis on mon 14 jun 04
Good Post John,
One of those little known facts is that Sodium chloride in solution in
water encourages the dissolution of one of the most resistant minerals
we use, Quartz. But the conditions under which that might happen are
not common in a potter's workshop. If silica did not dissolve in water
there would be none in the environment for those fascinating aquatic
organisms, the Radiolaria, to use as skeletal material.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
Potters Council Member
Jon Pacini on mon 14 jun 04
Greetings All , Vince and John------- Having been wrongly accused of not
having any respect for Ron myself, I can sympathize with Lee s point. What
we do is, we disagree with him. Mostly I disagree with his philosophy, but I
must add that when someone comes to me who does want to go down the same
path as what Ron prescribes, I don t discourage them, I recommend Ron s book
to them.
There s a thousand ways to work with clay and they are all VALID methods,
there is not just ONE TRUE WAY. I would like to think that we are civil
enough to be able to debate the merits of all of those methods.
Ron definitely gives of himself to Clayart, to all of ceramics for that
matter. I doubt there is any disagreement in that. And in reading Lee s
posts, I don t see that he has written anything that would lead me to think
he disrespects Ron ---he just disagrees with him. And he has shown the
reasons why he disagrees. That sounds like a dialogue to me.
There is a tendency for Ron s statements to read as if they are blanket,
self-evident truths, not up for discussion. This may be a problem of tone in
the statements or perhaps just a failure of the media (e-mail posts) that
gives rise to this situation. None the less, Ron made the statement. He may
or may not have a valid point in that soluble materials SHOULD be avoided,
but he is in error in stating that Potters as a matter of course, avoid
soluble materials . Some do, some don t.
Now, here s where I really do have a problem ---- if you were a neophyte
reading Ron s statement regarding solubles, would you think that it s Ok to
use them? Or would you think that all potters avoid using solubles? Keep in
mind that he is considered one of the Premier Glaze Guru s on Clayart. If I
read this statement and didn t know any better, I d more than likely never
experiment with soluble materials. Do you think that is how students should
be encouraged? I would think experimentation should be encouraged.
Ron is certainly entitled to his opinion, and yes, soluble minerals can be
problematic. But should they really be AVOIDED? Should he, as a respected
expert , say that potters avoid soluble minerals ???
Ding---next round
Best regards
Jon Pacini
Clay Manager
Laguna Clay Co
Lee Love on mon 14 jun 04
Hendrix, Taylor J. wrote:
> GB will not totally
>disolve in water while borax, as far as I understand, will.
>
>
Taylor, these are legalistic "nuances." "Ghastly borate",
as Karl Platt used to call it, is avoided by glass makers for the same
reason other soluble materials are (it will do all the same things to a
glaze as the solubles Ron mentions in his last post on the topic.)
Also, see John Pacini's comments about borosilicate frit in a clay body
below. I find a similar effect in the natural claybodies I use,
especially the Shigaraki..
I am not so interested in legalistic arguments, (Angels on a
pinhead) as I am about the effects of materials on my glazes and clays.
Jon Pacini
Clay Manager
Laguna Clay Co wrote:
>Not only is Ash soluble, but
>also most Alkaline minerals are soluble to an extent. Nephline Synite is a
>commonly used glaze mineral and can solely deflocculate a porcelain slip
>when used in large percentages. Gerstley Borate is a widely used glaze
>ingredient and is notoriously soluble. Even commercial frits are somewhat
>soluble, just try putting a borosilicate frit in a clay body and see how it
>reacts, then you decide about the solubility of the materials we use.
>
--
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://journals.fotki.com/togeika/Mashiko/ Commentary On Pottery
| |
|
