Lili Krakowski on sat 7 aug 04
Dear Rick: I write you on list because this has gone beyond simply =
commenting on A Color.
>mel calls it Mother in law blue. People praise mel for his post.<
We all know that Mel loved his Mother-in-Law and so his calling that =
glaze MiL Blue was a teasing, affectionate baptism. And if her name had =
been/was Josephine then he could have called it Josephine blue. As I =
like the color, I can only say her name is a blessing.=20
>Rick relates a story about what the glaze was called where he went to
grad school (it was called that before he got there) and he is
attacking elderly ladies painting them with a "broad brush".<
That is disingenuous! If it was called that at your grad school, then =
fooey to the gradschool. What can I tell you? There are plenty of =
derogatory "names" , as Irish, Italians, Spanish, Hungarian, Polish, =
African, Jewish Americans can tell you, that have fallen into disuse =
because people RIGHTLY RESENTED THEM. The basically "innocent" =
counting out song (if that is what that is called) "eenie meanie miney =
mo...." has been revised. Just for that reason. When I was young we =
referred to the coarse, cheap, wonderful California red wine we drank by =
the gallon as "...... Red" using a term referring to Italians, but =
not appreciated by them! "Granny" in itself is harmless. The way your =
school and you used it is not.
So please do not change the emphasis. You wrote that a particularly =
repulsive glaze, adored by elderly ladies was referred to as "Granny =
Grabber." Parenthetically I see no difference of merit between saying =
something "bad" and quoting it. (I am profoundly tired of grownups =
saying : " As the kids would put it: (&*(*^)(*_) " You describe =
yourself as only the messenger; well, consider the message. If a vile =
glaze appealed primarily people of your ethnic minority and were called =
the " ****** grabber" you might mind if someone felt it necessary to =
repeat the name. As has been commented by others in this round of =
blues, no one forces a potter to sell. But if a potter wants to sell =
then the idea of pleasing the public is a good one. And one can do so =
by making pots AS attractive to the public as to one's peers!
>Ever wonder why some folks quit posting to Clayart?<
No.
>Posts that are put up on Clayart are not an attack on you. ....=20
You should think again if you take something personally.<
>However, responses are more pointed and when one is singled out by name
>it is different. These can feel like an attack. I hope that Lili has
>an axe to grind over something(s) in the past and what was posted and
>interpreted just gave a place to vent that feeling, but I have to ask
>is the hard feeling I felt coming through the words in the right =
place?
I do not think messages on Clayart mean "Me" unless my name is used. =
(Which, often, is a hint!) ! You are the one who brought the GG glaze =
up, so why wonder I used your name? I take derogation of old women as =
addressed to me because I am an old woman (though, being childless, =
not a grandmother ). I object to sexism flat out. I would rant about =
GG if it were called "*** grabber" because *** loved it, or =
^^^^^^^grabber because ^^^^^^^^ bought it. One can object to a remark =
because it is plain offensive, whether one belongs to that group or not. =
I learned long ago that when people start picking on a minority I =
should identify with the minority, because, pace Bonhoeffer, they'll =
get around to me soon enough.
I never grind axes, a former woodcutter having taught me to use a file. =
However. Yes. I do resent a lot of the snobbism, elitism, etc attitude =
on Clayart, and I do pick up on it. Because I have observed it since =
1949.
In my opinion Cobalt blue is sneered at for a number of reasons, none =
of which think valid. It is sneered at because it "pleases the masses" =
and is found more frequently at WalMart than at Galeria Snootissima. =
It is sneered at because it is easy to achieve. Cobalt has a =
consistency and versatility that is, in my experience, indestructible. =
Any newbie can get a nice blue glaze. One does not need an MFA, a =
grant, a fellowship, a sojourn to anyplace. One just can do it. =20
Then: there is--and I am not going to go into that again--a real bias =
for Korean/Japanese/Chinese pottery influences in the pottery =
"consciousness" in the US today, which I find regretable. All those =
olives, dark reds, tans, greys, offwhites, browns and so on are GLORIOUS =
GLORIOUS. But they are not the only thing, nor the only tradition, nor =
even a tradition that has some moral merit we should live up to. We =
speak constantly of a "pluralistic society" but we seem to banish =
pluralism from our own ranks.
=20
>Think about what kind of place you want Clayart to be...........vital
alive with diverse opinions or only with the same opinions and ideas
and less diversity..............<
I think a lot about what I would like Clayart to be. I would like it to =
be the relaxed helpful, cheerful place it often is, where potters treat =
each other with affectionate respect. Where those who slipcast their =
wares, who extrude them, slabbuild, coil, pinch or throw them; those =
who work at earthenware temps.;who high -fire electrically; who dig =
holes in the soil and fire with cowdung all are treated seriously and =
well IF they evince dedicated craftsmanship and honor the tradition and =
values of craft. It is exactly the snuffing out of opinion that I =
protest. I find very little diversity on Clayart these days. If people =
have left it may be because their kind of work was derided. =20
To ask just one question: How often to we read Hamada, Leach, on =
Clayart, how often do we read Wondrausch or Lewenstein?
With my respects to your grandmothers, best to you.
Lili
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
elca branman on sun 8 aug 04
Lili dear.
You must be kind to those under 40...they believe that being young is an
intrinsic part of their character.
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 13:01:16 -0400 Lili Krakowski
writes:
he is
> attacking elderly ladies painting them with a "broad brush".<
Elca Branman
http://www.elcabranman.com
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
Rikki Gill on sun 8 aug 04
Thank you Lili,
That was truly well said. I didn't agree with you 100 percent, but very,
very close. I do think this pointless, narcissistic thread that demeans on
one hand and elevates those who are the 'keepers of the true way' on the
other, has turned off a lot of fine potters on this list. After all, who
even wants to debate with non thinkers. A color is a color, is a color.
It's what you do with it that counts.
And I do agree, that this was a great opportunity for misogynists to get
in a few licks.
Another aspect of all this that has never been mentioned is that I find it
really strange to demean one's women customers. After all, in my years of
selling to the public, it is women who buy pots, mostly.
Yes, couples arrive together, but it is more frequent for the woman to do
the choosing. Men buy pots, too, I have many men who have bought my pots
for years, but my impression is that many women have not just bought, but
extended emotional support and encouragement to me, [and to you all] year
after year. This is perhaps more noticeable in a permanent sales place, but
was even apparent in annual shows. Why insult people who help you? Isn't
that biting the hand that feeds you, to be a little cliché?
My feeling is that what has angered those who have written on or off line,
or left Clayart is the inherent lack of RESPECT for others. And not just on
this thread.
Rikki Gill
Berkeley, Ca.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lili Krakowski"
To:
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 10:01 AM
Subject: Rick and the Blues
Dear Rick: I write you on list because this has gone beyond simply
commenting on A Color.
>mel calls it Mother in law blue. People praise mel for his post.<
We all know that Mel loved his Mother-in-Law and so his calling that glaze
MiL Blue was a teasing, affectionate baptism. And if her name had been/was
Josephine then he could have called it Josephine blue. As I like the color,
I can only say her name is a blessing.
>Rick relates a story about what the glaze was called where he went to
grad school (it was called that before he got there) and he is
attacking elderly ladies painting them with a "broad brush".<
That is disingenuous! If it was called that at your grad school, then
fooey to the gradschool. What can I tell you? There are plenty of
derogatory "names" , as Irish, Italians, Spanish, Hungarian, Polish,
African, Jewish Americans can tell you, that have fallen into disuse
because people RIGHTLY RESENTED THEM. The basically "innocent" counting
out song (if that is what that is called) "eenie meanie miney mo...." has
been revised. Just for that reason. When I was young we referred to the
coarse, cheap, wonderful California red wine we drank by the gallon as
"...... Red" using a term referring to Italians, but not appreciated by
them! "Granny" in itself is harmless. The way your school and you used it
is not.
So please do not change the emphasis. You wrote that a particularly
repulsive glaze, adored by elderly ladies was referred to as "Granny
Grabber." Parenthetically I see no difference of merit between saying
something "bad" and quoting it. (I am profoundly tired of grownups saying :
" As the kids would put it: (&*(*^)(*_) " You describe yourself as only
the messenger; well, consider the message. If a vile glaze appealed
primarily people of your ethnic minority and were called the " ******
grabber" you might mind if someone felt it necessary to repeat the name.
As has been commented by others in this round of blues, no one forces a
potter to sell. But if a potter wants to sell then the idea of pleasing the
public is a good one. And one can do so by making pots AS attractive to the
public as to one's peers!
>Ever wonder why some folks quit posting to Clayart?<
No.
>Posts that are put up on Clayart are not an attack on you. ....
You should think again if you take something personally.<
>However, responses are more pointed and when one is singled out by name
>it is different. These can feel like an attack. I hope that Lili has
>an axe to grind over something(s) in the past and what was posted and
>interpreted just gave a place to vent that feeling, but I have to ask
>is the hard feeling I felt coming through the words in the right place?
I do not think messages on Clayart mean "Me" unless my name is used.
(Which, often, is a hint!) ! You are the one who brought the GG glaze up,
so why wonder I used your name? I take derogation of old women as
addressed to me because I am an old woman (though, being childless, not a
grandmother ). I object to sexism flat out. I would rant about GG if it
were called "*** grabber" because *** loved it, or ^^^^^^^grabber because
^^^^^^^^ bought it. One can object to a remark because it is plain
offensive, whether one belongs to that group or not. I learned long ago
that when people start picking on a minority I should identify with the
minority, because, pace Bonhoeffer, they'll get around to me soon enough.
I never grind axes, a former woodcutter having taught me to use a file.
However. Yes. I do resent a lot of the snobbism, elitism, etc attitude on
Clayart, and I do pick up on it. Because I have observed it since 1949.
In my opinion Cobalt blue is sneered at for a number of reasons, none of
which think valid. It is sneered at because it "pleases the masses" and is
found more frequently at WalMart than at Galeria Snootissima. It is
sneered at because it is easy to achieve. Cobalt has a consistency and
versatility that is, in my experience, indestructible. Any newbie can get a
nice blue glaze. One does not need an MFA, a grant, a fellowship, a sojourn
to anyplace. One just can do it.
Then: there is--and I am not going to go into that again--a real bias for
Korean/Japanese/Chinese pottery influences in the pottery "consciousness"
in the US today, which I find regretable. All those olives, dark reds,
tans, greys, offwhites, browns and so on are GLORIOUS GLORIOUS. But they
are not the only thing, nor the only tradition, nor even a tradition that
has some moral merit we should live up to. We speak constantly of a
"pluralistic society" but we seem to banish pluralism from our own ranks.
>Think about what kind of place you want Clayart to be...........vital
alive with diverse opinions or only with the same opinions and ideas
and less diversity..............<
I think a lot about what I would like Clayart to be. I would like it to be
the relaxed helpful, cheerful place it often is, where potters treat each
other with affectionate respect. Where those who slipcast their wares,
who extrude them, slabbuild, coil, pinch or throw them; those who work at
earthenware temps.;who high -fire electrically; who dig holes in the soil
and fire with cowdung all are treated seriously and well IF they evince
dedicated craftsmanship and honor the tradition and values of craft. It is
exactly the snuffing out of opinion that I protest. I find very little
diversity on Clayart these days. If people have left it may be because their
kind of work was derided.
To ask just one question: How often to we read Hamada, Leach, on Clayart,
how often do we read Wondrausch or Lewenstein?
With my respects to your grandmothers, best to you.
Lili
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Anne Webb on sun 8 aug 04
>I take derogation of old women as addressed to me because I am an old
>woman. I object to sexism flat out.
i don't know lili... when i heard the glaze names "granny grabber blue" or
"mother in law blue" (whether rick or st mel says it) , the first thing that
popped into my mind was: "hot seller". the names are short and succinct,
communicating that meaning quite well.
Just cuz rick the grad student (and no offense to you rick) thought/thinks
the glaze was putrid, and cant understand why anyone would buy that ugly
stuff, so what? it must have had some redeeming quality to sell so well.
sorry the glaze names upset you so much. sexist and demeaning? maybe a
bit... but certainly not meant to be, and certainly not in the same ballpark
as a racial slurr.
have a great day
anne
who loved her granny :)
_________________________________________________________________
Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to
School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx
| |
|
