pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sat 21 aug 04
Hi Gary,
Which reminds me...
Too...
In our society, no one goves a shit about any kind of
'talent' unless it may be banalified unto dollars or status.
The justification I remember being given in hi-school
'sociology' class, was that 'abortion' was objectionable
because the foetus might be another 'Einstein' or
'Beetovan'...
Whereupon, being I suppose 14 or something at the time, I
looked around slowly and said, "What about us?"
(...for a 'reply', I got to savor only the uncomfortable
'silence'...then the bell rang...)
Anyway...
Phil
el ve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Harvey"
> From people like Beethoven, Mozart and other child
prodigies. Talent is
> many times developed in time but many are simply born with
it. Gary Harvey,
> Palestine TX
Vince Pitelka on sat 21 aug 04
> With all due respect where did this mythology that all kids start out as
> Artists come from? All kids may start out with a lot of curiosity and
creativity
> but that in no way makes them artists. If the kids can keep the curiosity
and
> the creativity and then develop the tool kit necessary to express their
visions
> in such a way as to adequately communicate to other organisms with the
> ability to appreciate that vision then perhaps they have become artists.
Paul -
Mythology? Apparently you have not spent much time observing young children
making art. Almost all children start out with an enthusiasm for visual
communication via art media. They like to express themselves visually with
crayons, pencil, paint, markers, clay, whatever. They are emerging artists,
in every sense of the word. Herbert Read wrote about this in the 1960s, and
child psychologists who deal with children's art have studied it
extensively. So, most kids start out as willing, able artists. It has
nothing to do with talent or skill or training or whatever too many of us
think of as "Art" with a capital "A." In one sense, an artist is just
someone who expresses her/himself visually with art media, and as such there
is no qualititative connotation in the term artist. As was mentioned in
another post in this thread, part of the stigma that keeps people from
thinking of themselves as artists is this warped concept of "Art" with a
capital "A."
Hope this clarifies things -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Almost all young kids make art willingly and enthusiastically, but
altogether too often, well-meaning but misguided parents, peers, and
teachers altogether too often screw up that wonderful willingness and
enthusiasm. It is one of the tradegies of our contemporary culture. As I
said in another post, art is such a humanizing, confidence-building,
expressive force. It is such a valuable tool for people of all ages, and it
would be a better world if art was part of everyone's life.
Paul Gerhold on sat 21 aug 04
Vince,
With all due respect where did this mythology that all kids start out as
Artists come from? All kids may start out with a lot of curiosity and creativity
but that in no way makes them artists. If the kids can keep the curiosity and
the creativity and then develop the tool kit necessary to express their visions
in such a way as to adequately communicate to other organisms with the
ability to appreciate that vision then perhaps they have become artists.
Paul
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sat 21 aug 04
See the Book "Evolution's End" for some good views of this
and related matters as respect Children...
One may obtain used copies on the 'Amazon' for less than the
price of a sandwhich.
Phil
elve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Gerhold"
> Vince,
>
> With all due respect where did this mythology that all
kids start out as
> Artists come from? All kids may start out with a lot of
curiosity and creativity
> but that in no way makes them artists. If the kids can
keep the curiosity and
> the creativity and then develop the tool kit necessary to
express their visions
> in such a way as to adequately communicate to other
organisms with the
> ability to appreciate that vision then perhaps they have
become artists.
>
> Paul
Gary Harvey on sat 21 aug 04
From people like Beethoven, Mozart and other child prodigies. Talent is
many times developed in time but many are simply born with it. Gary Harvey,
Palestine TX
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Gerhold"
To:
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 9:40 AM
Subject: Kids as Artists?
> Vince,
>
> With all due respect where did this mythology that all kids start out as
> Artists come from? All kids may start out with a lot of curiosity and
creativity
> but that in no way makes them artists. If the kids can keep the curiosity
and
> the creativity and then develop the tool kit necessary to express their
visions
> in such a way as to adequately communicate to other organisms with the
> ability to appreciate that vision then perhaps they have become artists.
>
> Paul
>
>
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Snail Scott on tue 24 aug 04
At 10:40 AM 8/21/2004 EDT, Paul G. wrote:
>...where did this mythology that all kids start out as
>Artists come from? All kids may start out with a lot of curiosity and
creativity
>but that in no way makes them artists.
I hear a lot about children's art as a sort
of well of untainted, primal originality.
Well, I often think that's an exception, not
the rule. For every kid I've seen who really
strikes out on their own, 20 more are copying
the drawings of those next to them. And no,
I don't think it's because the'd been told
that there's only one right way. I think it's
because kids' lives are focused on learning
to fit into the world - how to talk, behave,
do what's expected. We're all hardwired that
way; it's part of childhood.
When I see a gaggle of kids from New Mexico
drawing houses with pointy roofs, I know they're
not drawing from personal perception. That
'house with a pointy roof, a door in the middle
and a window on each side, with 'R' shaped
curtains in the windows' icon is not creativity
at work, it's conformity. (That's life in the
human species.) Kids ask 'how do you draw a
house' or 'how do you draw a dog?' They haven't
had originality pummeled out of them; on the
contrary, they just haven't learned it yet. They
try to acquire systems and methods, just as they
learn the grammar of their native language or
how to tie a shoelace.
I believe the notion of kids as a natural wells
of creative originality is overrated. Its roots
are there, and can can be cultivated and
encouraged, but I personally suspect that
(ironically) originality is a learned behavior.
-Snail Scott
Vince Pitelka on tue 24 aug 04
> I hear a lot about children's art as a sort
> of well of untainted, primal originality.
> Well, I often think that's an exception, not
> the rule. For every kid I've seen who really
> strikes out on their own, 20 more are copying
> the drawings of those next to them. And no,
> I don't think it's because the'd been told
> that there's only one right way. I think it's
> because kids' lives are focused on learning
> to fit into the world - how to talk, behave,
> do what's expected. We're all hardwired that
> way; it's part of childhood.
> I believe the notion of kids as a natural wells
> of creative originality is overrated. Its roots
> are there, and can can be cultivated and
> encouraged, but I personally suspect that
> (ironically) originality is a learned behavior.
Snail -
We are not hardwired that way, and it is not inherently part of childhood.
Natural perceptual response based on survival instincts does cause children
to try to identify and categorize things they encounter in their surrounds,
but conforming with other children is not a part of that. It is learned.
Everything you refer to above applies to kids who have already been
adversely affected by the damage we do to childrens' natural inclination to
make art. Have you observed kids who are homeschooled from the earliest
years in an atmosphere where they are encouraged to be adventurous and
curious, with no pressure to conform? Public school naturally pressures
kids to conform, and that is where some of the greatest damage is done, no
matter how good the teacher is. If, from the earliest age, there was more
emphasis on free experimentation, encouraging children to find their own
path as curiosity carries them through, as it inevitably will, kids would
all remain artists as they grow older.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Marta Matray Gloviczki on wed 25 aug 04
>Keep away from people who try to belittle
>your ambitions. Small people always do
>that, but the really great make you feel that
>you, too, can become great. ~Mark Twain
thanks for the quote elzbieta!
i wonder how on earth is it possible that mark twain
knows so well certain clayarters and reads some
recent posts...?
or, doesnt he talk about us?
:-)
marta
=====
marta matray gloviczki
rochester,mn
http://www.angelfire.com/mn2/marta/
http://users.skynet.be/russel.fouts/Marta.htm
http://www.silverhawk.com/crafts/gloviczki/welcome.html
Elzbieta Sekula on wed 25 aug 04
Keep away from people who try to belittle
your ambitions. Small people always do
that, but the really great make you feel that
you, too, can become great. ~Mark Twain
Sounds like very good advice to me!
Elzbieta
Alisha Vincent on thu 26 aug 04
Vince,
I have to say I really enjoyed reading your responses on this topic today.
So, thank you.
What I haven't heard anyone mention yet though is a very basic mention of
brain development. Many times children mimic other artists so well at young
ages due to their ability to access (and vital need to exercise) the right
side of their brain - the creative side most artists tend to favor. This
comes naturally to children because they are still developing this area as
they mimic others and learn how to use symbols. So, colors and shapes pop
out to them in was that aren't always so obvious to adults.
Does this mean all art made by kids is great? Well, that's the debate. And,
quite frankly, we could talk about it until the cows come home and still not
arrive at definite answer.
But it does explain why kids love to color and play with finger paint or
clay. And it definitely gives them a leg up over any of us on the REALM of
their creativity - the incredible scope they have. As a kid it's easy to be
fearless in art. As an adult it's a little harder in the studio. HA...
In fact, I have two little pots I just bought at the Sunapee Fair in NH this
month by a 12 year old who was selling his work and was so serious about
developing it as a business he had A MAILING LIST! He wanted to make
postcards later and send them to people on his mailing list. And, the thing
this kid was most worried about all week? Making enough money to buy more
clay so he could make more pots and sell more work. Can we say "production
potter"? Yep... this kid took his "play" in art class further than most kids
would. Again, I think it demonstrates how fearless you can be when you are
young. And how ripe you are to really developing great artwork someday - if
not TOday.
-Alisha-
-----------
Alisha M. Vincent
Public Affairs Director
The Rosen Group, Inc.
Gain more business skill at...
Or, listen to my daily ramblings at...
Vince Pitelka on fri 27 aug 04
> Does this mean all art made by kids is great? Well, that's the debate.
And,
> quite frankly, we could talk about it until the cows come home and still
not
> arrive at definite answer.
Alisha -
I greatly enjoyed your response. But I never implied that all art made by
kids is great. I would never say such a thing. In fact, and please don't
take this as a criticism, the issue is irrelevant. Greatness in art is not
a consideration here. A very small percentage of artists ever become great.
The point is that all kids make art willingly, and with proper freedom and
encouragement, they will continue to use art as an avenue of
self-expression, and that is ALWAYS a good thing, whether or not the
resulting art is any good. We have somehow come by the notion that fine
arts (visual art, music, dance, theater) must be excellent in order to be
worth showing. What is that all about? These are avenues of self
expression, and should be open to everyone, whether or not the viewer "gets
it."
> But it does explain why kids love to color and play with finger paint or
> clay. And it definitely gives them a leg up over any of us on the REALM of
> their creativity - the incredible scope they have. As a kid it's easy to
be
> fearless in art. As an adult it's a little harder in the studio. HA...
That's the whole point. If all kids were encouraged to continue expressing
themselves in visual art, they would all remain fearless as they grow older,
and would continue to use visual art as a viable avenue for self expression.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
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