Morgan Britt on mon 6 sep 04
Geez Rod,
You statements appear so argumentative even a usual lurker like me is
inspired to respond. If you think it's too expensive, then don't buy one!
If you can build your own, then build it! It serves no purpose to criticize someone who had the initiative to design
someone for providing something useful (thirty plus years ago I must
add), especially when you know nothing of what went into besides parts.
Paul used the cement because will absorb excess moisture from the clay.
The clay peels away from it when the moisture is right. The metal arms
guide the peeled away clay back into the tub with the rest of
the mix for more even mixing. Cement works better than metal. Would you
wedge clay on stainless steel table?
As for over the counter parts, he did that on purpose so we do-it-yourself-
ers could repair our own equipment if needed without having to order special
parts.
He doesn't have the business any more, and don't think he made a
bunch of money selling it... he didn't. It never was about money... he
simply wanted to share a piece of equipment he felt useful to the clay
community. I think if Paul had not ended up in clay he would have been
an engineer. His mind is amazing that way.
As for building it yourself... I'm sure Paul would be the first to
encourage you to do so and would help you with advice if you needed it.
He loves inventive and industrious people. Marketing his mixer (I think)
was to accomodate those of us (like myself) who don't have the knowledge of
mechanics and materials to fabricate our own.
Good luck
Morgan Britt
California
From: Rod Wuetherick
Subject: Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Vince I would like to offer you a challenge,
What is the ingenious design? You make this sound like rocket science!
Steel reinforced concrete? Your not talking to a student here. There is not
much
science to reinforcing concrete with steel - none - zero - nada. Dead on
center? At the
slow speeds that the mixer is running - close enough is good enough. Your
not
running a centrifuge here - let's get serious. Tolerances are not in
nanometers,
or millimeterers, within the centimeter would be good enough and you can do
that with a
stick. Besides that ahem - What is casting Alex for $1000.00?
Okay now that we have that covered pray tell what else is there to talk
about. Unless you want
to bring in your comment of union wages - what the hell does that have to do
with it? Are you
saying we should pay $8000.00 dollars for a mixer because whomever built it
is being paid union
wages? Not sure what your saying here! How many potters are being paid union
wages?
Expensive R & D - Bullshit. What R & D is there to using off the shelf
motors, gear box, electrical,
etc. I challenge you Vince tell me what research? What development? If they
had designed the motors, gearbox, etc. I would say sure some R & D but there
is none here
that I can see.
We are talking about an over priced piece of equipment whose entire drive
train uses off the shelf
components right down to the electrical.
We have a steel reinforced concrete mixing basin - geez if having concrete
reinforced with steel
is worth so much my driveway must surely be worth a million or more dollars.
I stand by what I say the Soldner mixer is overpriced. How does your back
feel when your finished unloading a Soldner mixer? If you say it feels great
I would have to say bullshit for the second time in this letter. Sorry guy
but I know too many people besides myself that have used them and say the
same. Most of them after bending over and cleaning the bemoth out once
regretted not buying a peter pugger or the like for almost 1/2 the cost.
Anyone building a studio should get a pugmill and everything else they need
before they entertain the idea of getting any clay mixer - let alone a
Soldner. By then they will have enough experience to make an informed
decision.
Vince if I wanted to I could indeed make a mixer as good as a Soldner. You
may call that arrogance I call it the pragmatic application of simplistic
design. Building a Soldner like mixer is a little bit of welding, casting,
etc. Maybe the one I made wouldn't be as pretty but it would be just as
effective. Your right that I probably would end up spending some time at it.
But after you have built one the rest are a piece of cake. How many Soldner
mixers have been made? Enough to know how to get it right.
The markup is enormous you are not paying for R & D. Your paying for
concrete.
As I said many times here - there isn't any science to a Soldner Mixer.
Saying there is allot of R & D in this product is a stretch at best.
Why hasn't any other company made a mixer like it? Any patent protection ran
out a long long time ago- so why? Simple- it ain't that great of an idea!
By the way you finished by saying, "and give the whole thing a nice
industrial finish"
Is this what we up here in Canada call paint?
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Vince
Pitelka
Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 7:46 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer
> I personally will never buy one not because with a little saving I
couldn't
> afford one. It is simply this. The soldner mixer is so horrendously over
> priced that you could actually hire a fabricator in whatever city you are
in
> to fabricate a like machine from scratch for probably less money than it
> would cost you to buy one.
Rod -
I would like to issue you a challenge. Go ahead and try it. Try to
fabricat a mixer that is equal to the Soldner. Having done a great deal of
machinery/equipment design, construction, and repair in my time, I can see
that the Soldner mixer is worth every bit of the cost. It is an ingenious
design, and part of what you are paying for is the extensive R&D that went
into perfecting the design. That is always the case with any sort of
ingenious invention.
So, if you can figure out how to cast that steel reinforced tub and get it
dead-on-center on a rotating shaft, and construct all the rest of the frame
and mixing bars, add the "off-the-shelf" gearmotor and electrical
components, pay yourself union wages for all the labor, and give the whole
thing a nice industrial finish, and still come in for less than $4500, you
will be doing very well. I'd like to see you do that.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
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Automatic digest processor wrote:
>
> CLAYART Digest - 4 Sep 2004 to 5 Sep 2004 (#2004-246)
>
>
> Table of contents:
>
> * Ceramic tile...glossy to matte? <#S1> (2)
> * In God We Trust <#S2>
> * Oil Spot Glazes (Article) <#S3> (3)
> * The Soldner Mixer <#S4> (2)
> * Wanted Soldner Mixer -> When I said 15K I meant 8K <#S5> (8)
> * Wanted Soldner Mixer <#S6> (10)
> * Nan and Josie/Mel's Firings <#S7>
> * Pricing and common sense; was Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer <#S8>
> * Tony, teachers <#S9> (3)
> * shipping tiles - Thank you! <#S10>
> * Math in school...(reposted by request...) <#S11>
> * Jared update <#S12>
> * Albany Slip how to <#S13>
> * Soldner Mixer R & D <#S14>
> * When I said 15K I meant 8K <#S15>
> * clay mixing alternatives <#S16>
> * what i did on my summer vacation <#S17>
> * T Material <#S18> (2)
> * Pug mills (now: terminology) <#S19>
> * clayart value <#S20> (2)
> * a different clay concern <#S21> (4)
> * broad brush to education and learning <#S22>
> * "Iron Chef" and Pottery <#S23> (3)
> * Mel's pictures <#S24>
> * message for Wes Rolley (OT) <#S25>
> * Magic Black <#S26>
> * demos at craft shows- what works best? <#S27>
> * Pricing... <#S28>
> * What a "Bogus" remark <#S29>
> * Rude to Vince - Oh for god's sake <#S30>
> * The "Recipe" <#S31>
> * black beach sand. <#S32> (3)
> * shino first or be cursed <#S33>
> * Crank Clay & T Material <#S34>
> * Potters Council Workshop/Mendocino <#S35>
> * Ababi, follow up <#S36> (2)
> * Grave covers <#S37>
> * Clay Times/Sept 04/Southern Ice firing question <#S38> (2)
> * =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Potters=20Council=20Works?=
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?hop/Mendocino?= <#S39>
> * Wanted Soldner Mixer - or, ambiguitiies occuring amid other
> confusions... <#S40>
> * Donations - just got this in the mail and can't believe it. <#S41>
> * is everyone as busy as i am......and other stuff <#S42>
> * Wanted Soldner Mixer - Bogus response <#S43>
> * Mr Bogus--did we meet at a Soldner mixer? <#S44>
> * In God We Trust/ TEACHERS PAY <#S45>
> * a different clay concern,bats <#S46>
>
> 1. Ceramic tile...glossy to matte?
> * Re: Ceramic tile...glossy to matte?
>
> (09/04)
> From: Vera Romoda
> * Re: Ceramic tile...glossy to matte?
>
> (09/04)
> From: Mike Gordon
> 2. In God We Trust
> * Re: In God We Trust
>
> (09/04)
> From: "Edouard Bastarache Inc."
> 3. Oil Spot Glazes (Article)
> * Re: Oil Spot Glazes (Article)
>
> (09/04)
> From: Veena Raghavan <75124.2520@COMPUSERVE.COM>
> * Re: Oil Spot Glazes (Article)
>
> (09/04)
> From: Marcia Selsor
> * Re: Oil Spot Glazes (Article)
>
> (09/05)
> From: Donalson
> 4. The Soldner Mixer
> * The Soldner Mixer
>
> (09/04)
> From: Marcia Selsor
> * Re: The Soldner Mixer
>
> (09/05)
> From: Wayne
> 5. Wanted Soldner Mixer -> When I said 15K I meant 8K
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer -> When I said 15K I meant 8K
>
> (09/04)
> From: Vince Pitelka
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer -> When I said 15K I meant 8K
>
> (09/05)
> From: dave bogus
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer -> When I said 15K I meant 8K
>
> (09/05)
> From: Rod Wuetherick
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer -> When I said 15K I meant 8K
>
> (09/05)
> From: Lori Leary
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer -> When I said 15K I meant 8K
>
> (09/05)
> From: Earl Brunner
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer -> When I said 15K I meant 8K
>
> (09/05)
> From: Earl Brunner
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer -> When I said 15K I meant 8K
>
> (09/05)
> From: Rod Wuetherick
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer -> When I said 15K I meant 8K
>
> (09/05)
> From: Vince Pitelka
> 6. Wanted Soldner Mixer
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer
>
> (09/04)
> From: Rod Wuetherick
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer
>
> (09/05)
> From: lela martens
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer
>
> (09/05)
> From: Russel Fouts
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer
>
> (09/05)
> From: Kim Lindaberry
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer
>
> (09/05)
> From: Kathi LeSueur
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer
>
> (09/05)
> From: Kathi LeSueur
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer
>
> (09/05)
> From: dave bogus
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer
>
> (09/05)
> From: John Jensen
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer
>
> (09/05)
> From: Craig Clark
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer
>
> (09/05)
> From: Earl Brunner
> 7. Nan and Josie/Mel's Firings
> * Nan and Josie/Mel's Firings
>
> (09/04)
> From: Joyce LEE
> 8. Pricing and common sense; was Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer
> * Pricing and common sense; was Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer
>
> (09/04)
> From: Steve Slatin
> 9. Tony, teachers
> * Tony, teachers
>
> (09/04)
> From: primalmommy
> * Re: Tony, teachers
>
> (09/05)
> From: Earl Brunner
> * Re: Tony, teachers
>
> (09/05)
> From: Wood Jeanne
> 10. shipping tiles - Thank you!
> * shipping tiles - Thank you!
>
> (09/04)
> From: Darlene Fletcher
> 11. Math in school...(reposted by request...)
> * Math in school...(reposted by request...)
>
> (09/05)
> From: pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET
> 12. Jared update
> * Re: Jared update
>
> (09/05)
> From: Graham & Rose Mercer
> 13. Albany Slip how to
> * Re: Albany Slip how to
>
> (09/05)
> From: Kathy McDonald
> 14. Soldner Mixer R & D
> * Soldner Mixer R & D
>
> (09/05)
> From: Marcia Selsor
> 15. When I said 15K I meant 8K
> * Re: When I said 15K I meant 8K
>
> (09/05)
> From: Marcia Selsor
> 16. clay mixing alternatives
> * clay mixing alternatives
>
> (09/05)
> From: mel jacobson
> 17. what i did on my summer vacation
> * Re: what i did on my summer vacation
>
> (09/05)
> From: Alisa Liskin Clausen
> 18. T Material
> * Re: T Material
>
> (09/05)
> From: Allyson May
> * Re: T Material
>
> (09/05)
> From: Donna Nicosia
> 19. Pug mills (now: terminology)
> * Re: Pug mills (now: terminology)
>
> (09/05)
> From: Woozie
> 20. clayart value
> * clayart value
>
> (09/05)
> From: mel jacobson
> * Re: clayart value
>
> (09/06)
> From: Des & Jan Howard
> 21. a different clay concern
> * a different clay concern
>
> (09/05)
> From: MarjB
> * Re: a different clay concern
>
> (09/05)
> From: Mike Gordon
> * Re: a different clay concern
>
> (09/05)
> From: Earl Brunner
> * Re: a different clay concern
>
> (09/05)
> From: claybair
> 22. broad brush to education and learning
> * broad brush to education and learning
>
> (09/05)
> From: Wes Rolley
> 23. "Iron Chef" and Pottery
> * Re: "Iron Chef" and Pottery
>
> (09/05)
> From: Cat Jarosz
> * Re: "Iron Chef" and Pottery
>
> (09/05)
> From: J Lutz
> * Re: "Iron Chef" and Pottery
>
> (09/05)
> From: Catherine Yassin
> 24. Mel's pictures
> * Mel's pictures
>
> (09/05)
> From: MarjB
> 25. message for Wes Rolley (OT)
> * message for Wes Rolley (OT)
>
> (09/05)
> From: Wes Rolley
> 26. Magic Black
> * Magic Black
>
> (09/05)
> From: Veena Raghavan <75124.2520@COMPUSERVE.COM>
> 27. demos at craft shows- what works best?
> * Re: demos at craft shows- what works best?
>
> (09/05)
> From: Jeff Brown
> 28. Pricing...
> * Pricing...
>
> (09/05)
> From: Kate Johnson
> 29. What a "Bogus" remark
> * What a "Bogus" remark
>
> (09/05)
> From: Rod Wuetherick
> 30. Rude to Vince - Oh for god's sake
> * Rude to Vince - Oh for god's sake
>
> (09/05)
> From: Rod Wuetherick
> 31. The "Recipe"
> * Re: The "Recipe"
>
> (09/05)
> From: Tom Buck
> 32. black beach sand.
> * black beach sand.
>
> (09/05)
> From: Pat Southwood
> * Re: black beach sand.
>
> (09/05)
> From: Ron Collins
> * Re: black beach sand.
>
> (09/06)
> From: steve harrison
> 33. shino first or be cursed
> * Re: shino first or be cursed
>
> (09/05)
> From: Donalson
> 34. Crank Clay & T Material
> * Crank Clay & T Material
>
> (09/05)
> From: Steve Mills
> 35. Potters Council Workshop/Mendocino
> * Potters Council Workshop/Mendocino
>
> (09/05)
> From: kterpstra
> 36. Ababi, follow up
> * Ababi, follow up
>
> (09/05)
> From: Lili Krakowski
> * Re: Ababi, follow up
>
> (09/05)
> From: Lois Ruben Aronow
> 37. Grave covers
> * Grave covers
>
> (09/05)
> From: Lili Krakowski
> 38. Clay Times/Sept 04/Southern Ice firing question
> * Clay Times/Sept 04/Southern Ice firing question
>
> (09/05)
> From: ccpottery@BELLSOUTH.NET
> * Re: Clay Times/Sept 04/Southern Ice firing question
>
> (09/05)
> From: Pam
> 39. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Potters=20Council=20Works?=
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?hop/Mendocino?=
> * =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Potters=20Council=20Works?=
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?hop/Mendocino?=
>
> (09/05)
> From: Brad Carter
> 40. Wanted Soldner Mixer - or, ambiguitiies occuring amid other
> confusions...
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer - or, ambiguitiies occuring amid
> other confusions...
>
> (09/05)
> From: pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET
> 41. Donations - just got this in the mail and can't believe it.
> * Re: Donations - just got this in the mail and can't
> believe it.
>
> (09/05)
> From: Connie Christensen
> 42. is everyone as busy as i am......and other stuff
> * is everyone as busy as i am......and other stuff
>
> (09/05)
> From: Billie Mitchell
> 43. Wanted Soldner Mixer - Bogus response
> * Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer - Bogus response
>
> (09/05)
> From: Vince Pitelka
> 44. Mr Bogus--did we meet at a Soldner mixer?
> * Mr Bogus--did we meet at a Soldner mixer?
>
> (09/05)
> From: Lili Krakowski
> 45. In God We Trust/ TEACHERS PAY
> * Re: In God We Trust/ TEACHERS PAY
>
> (09/05)
> From: Millie Carpenter
> 46. a different clay concern,bats
> * Re: a different clay concern,bats
>
> (09/05)
> From: Milla Miller
>
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