Larry Nakanishi on sat 11 sep 04
Purchased a kiln made by Bob Bixler (Ceramics Monthly,
March 1980, pp39-42). Initial visits to Fremont, CA
planning/building said they would permit the use if
drawings of property, location, gas line location,
service line capacity, and demand of kiln (previous
questions on Bendel burners). Went to pull permits
and now Building will not permit unless there is an
AGA number or certification by a mechanical engineer.
Has anyone experienced something similar, and if so,
how did you go about finding an engineer that
understands kilns?
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Kenneth D. Westfall on sat 11 sep 04
When I saw your post the first time I was afraid you were going to run into
this problem. You probably are going to have to switch to a commercial
made burner that is already been AGA certified. Even after that I'm not
sure you will ever get this kiln permitted with out the complete kiln AGA
certified. Finding a engineer that will do the certification is not going
to be easy. I heard all too many time that you get stuck with a kiln that
you can't use because of this problem of AGA certification and living in a
city. Hope you can find someone!
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
>http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
Kenneth D. Westfall
Pine Hill Pottery
R.D. #2 Box 6AA
Harrisville, WV 26362
kenneth@pinehillpottery.com
http://www.pinehillpottery.com
Larry Nakanishi on sat 11 sep 04
Seems strange that Olson home built and other commercially sold kilns do not
seem to have AGA certification and seem to be used. The only commercially
sold kiln I have found is the Geil certified by CSA. May have an expensive
storage box on my hands.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth D. Westfall"
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: Kiln certification
> When I saw your post the first time I was afraid you were going to run
into
> this problem. You probably are going to have to switch to a commercial
> made burner that is already been AGA certified. Even after that I'm not
> sure you will ever get this kiln permitted with out the complete kiln AGA
> certified. Finding a engineer that will do the certification is not going
> to be easy. I heard all too many time that you get stuck with a kiln that
> you can't use because of this problem of AGA certification and living in a
> city. Hope you can find someone!
>
>
>
>
>
> >__________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> >
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
> >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> >You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> >melpots@pclink.com.
>
> Kenneth D. Westfall
> Pine Hill Pottery
> R.D. #2 Box 6AA
> Harrisville, WV 26362
> kenneth@pinehillpottery.com
> http://www.pinehillpottery.com
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Earl Brunner on sat 11 sep 04
And that's the main reason why I put in a Geil kiln. The County rubber
stamped without raising an eyebrow. And I'm in a high density neighborhood.
Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Kenneth D.
Westfall
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 7:18 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Kiln certification
When I saw your post the first time I was afraid you were going to run into
this problem. You probably are going to have to switch to a commercial
made burner that is already been AGA certified. Even after that I'm not
sure you will ever get this kiln permitted with out the complete kiln AGA
certified. Finding a engineer that will do the certification is not going
to be easy. I heard all too many time that you get stuck with a kiln that
you can't use because of this problem of AGA certification and living in a
city. Hope you can find someone!
Kathi LeSueur on sat 11 sep 04
lnakanishi@YAHOO.COM wrote:
>Purchased a kiln made by Bob Bixler (Ceramics Monthly,
>March 1980, pp39-42). Initial visits to Fremont, CA
>planning/building said they would permit the use if
>drawings of property, location, gas line location,
>service line capacity, and demand of kiln (previous
>questions on Bendel burners). Went to pull permits
>and now Building will not permit unless there is an
>AGA number or certification by a mechanical engineer.
>Has anyone experienced something similar, and if so,
>how did you go about finding an engineer that
>understands kilns?>>>>>
>
We had friends have the same problem in Tennessee. I suggested they call
the Ann Arbor, MI building department and get the requirements for kilns
here. There are lots of gas kilns in Ann Arbor so they are acustom to
dealing with us. I believe my friends actually got a letter. I think
lots of places give a potter a hard time because they have no idea what
they are dealing with and don't want a problem down the line. a
community that has lots of potters and lots of kilns develops a more
reasonable approach as time goes by and there are no accidents.
Kathi
>
>
>
>
william schran on sat 11 sep 04
Larry wrote:>Went to pull permits
and now Building will not permit unless there is an
AGA number or certification by a mechanical engineer.
Has anyone experienced something similar, and if so,
how did you go about finding an engineer that
understands kilns?<
Can't answer the question about finding an engineer that understands
kilns, but mechanical engineers that deal with plumbing & electrical
issues should be able to tackle the problem.
I would think even though the entire gas system is not certified, if
each component of the system is UL listed and/or AGA listed, that
would help.
In my situation at school, the city fire marshall and the state
engineering overseers required the gas kiln I wanted to purchase was
AGA certified. The only company at this point that has their kilns
certified is Geil - and that's what we HAD to purchase.
Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with the kiln - whenever we get it
hooked up - but the same size from another company was under $10,000.
The Geil came in at over $17,000. Simply meant I went begging for
more money for a longer period of time.
Perhaps if other kiln manufacturers would have their kilns certified
it would make it easier for folks to install gas kilns. Course the
cost of certification is fairly expensive I'm sure.
Bill
steve harrison on sun 12 sep 04
Hi Larry,
I'm in Australia and not the US, however, i believe that the gas
regulations have similarities.
Here there is a possibility to get a home made 'one-off' kiln
registered as a Type 'B' appliance. That means that it is not made by a
big company and does not have an AGA number already.
Get the gas appliance code from a library, you could try a college
library where they teach gas fitting?
(also get the gas installation code) If you read through the codes and
make surethat you meet all the requirements, your kiln must pass. You
may well have to modify it, depending on how it has been built.
If your kiln doesn't meet all the requirements of the code, then it is
in your best interests to make sure that you bring it up to scratch for
your, your family and everyone elses safety.
You don't want to own a kiln that doesn't meet all the safety
requirements.
I run a small company here in Australia called Hot & Sticky - Kiln and
Clay Technology. I specialise in custom built kilns for potters fired
with wood, or electricity, or LP gas, or natural gas. each one has its
own special character and they all have (with the exception of wood) a
regulation book, code or Australian Standard that govern their safe
design, installation and use.
Because I custom build, each one is different and therefore can't have
an AGA number. Each one has to be applied for on an individual basis to
the relevant authority.
In the case of gas kilns they are applied for as a type 'B' appliance.
Check out your local gas authority requirements for type 'B' appliances.
It just might get you through this safely and legally.
I build my own burners, but I use AGA approved parts or where they
don't have AGA numbers, they are industry standard recognised parts.
You will need a failsafe valve and gas control valve(ball valve) that
have AGA numbers and an inspirator and flame nozzle that are industry
standard if not AGA approved.
Best wishes
Steve Harrison
Hot & Sticky Pty Ltd
5 Railway Pde
Balmoral Village
NSW 2571
Australia
http://ian.currie.to/sh/Steve_Harrisons_books.html
John Baymore on mon 13 sep 04
Hi all.......
Today my BFA kiln design course at the New Hampshire Institute of Art
starts (Monday holiday last week )... so I was =
looking thru some old files as I got ready for the class.
This information below is a copy of a CLAYART posting I did in October of=
1996 that has some info that might be relevant to the current "kiln
certification" discussion going on here . Thought I'd re-send it. =
Sometimes people don't think to look in the CLAYART acrhives or don't hav=
e
access to them for some reason.
Hope it is useful to someone.
best,
.........................john
best,
.......................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086-5812 USA
JBaymore@compuserve.com
http://www.JohnBaymore.com
603-654-2752 (studio)
800-900-1110 (studio)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
-------------------------
.....clip......
This is a question for all of the potters with gas kilns. Do all of you=
live in the country where there is usually a minimum of zoning laws?
Anyone living in the city or the suburbs with a gas kiln? We're thinking=
of moving and this is a concern for me--don't want to get stuck in an are=
a
where I could not build a gas kiln.
.....snip......
Debra,
I have been doing kiln design and installation work for potters and
institutions for about 20 years so I deal with this ALL the time. This
type of discussion is the first part of the consulting process. First of=
all, it is VERY hard to generalize on this type of thing. The specifics =
of
the situation matter a LOT. I am also assuming you are in the US....
don't know anything about the rest of the world. That being
said............
The general, highly simplistic answer is that the more urban, the more
regulations. The more rural, the more "easygoing". You can extrapolate
that also to the more urban, the more expensive to install and the more
rural, the less expensive to install. You can also add, the more urban t=
he
longer the process takes and the more paper it takes, and the more rural
the faster and less "paper pollution" generated.
Putting in a 40 cubic foot gas kiln in Boston on natural gas is a lot
larger project and more costly than putting in a 40 cubic foot gas kiln o=
n
propane in downtown Wilton, NH. Done both .
There are sort of two general types of kiln installations. Legal and
illegal. Both exist all over the country. As a pro ..... I tend to shy
away from the illegal ones . In fact, I strongly advocate legal ones.=
Illegal ones can make it harder for others to get kilns in legally.
In some places potters just go ahead and put in the kiln. Don't ask and
don't tell. If the town is pretty "laid back", often you can get away wi=
th
this even though you have a backhoe in to dig the foundation and concrete=
trucks and so on. Often the kiln is there for years with no problems.
Unless there is a complaint the kiln merrily fires away. Keep the
neighbors happy..... give em' pots!
But there are downsides to such an installation that have to be considere=
d
before just doing it. For example, if there were a fire or explosion fro=
m
the kiln and it was not a legal installation, the insurance carrier could=
disallow any claim. Such an occurance could open you to civil or criminal=
charges if there was injury or property loss to someone else. If suddenl=
y
the town found out and had a real problem with it, daily fines accrued ov=
er
the years could come to a tidy sum. At the least, suddenly the town coul=
d
issue a "cease and desist" order, and the investment in the kiln suddenly=
goes kaput.
There are plenty of this type of installation around. Lots have gotten
away with it for long periods. You have to decide how much of a gambler
you are to take this approach. It works for some.
Regulations vary from state to state and town to town. Some also depend =
on
whether you are a business or are doing this as a hobby. Some depend on
the fuel you intend to use. Some depend on the BTU input per hour of the=
total peak draw of the kiln. And so on.
Most of the regulations you might hit are well meaning in intent. They a=
re
generally intended to make the installation safe and to not cause hardshi=
p
on others. Sometimes you get an overzealous official that gets rediculou=
s
and tries to throw the book at it....... but that is rare. If you are no=
t
a really well versed pro in the area of kilns and combustion, then much o=
f
this regulation stuff is probably a good idea to follow. Yes... I have
seen propane kilns plumbed with old garden hose and pipe clamps run to
rusty homemade burners that have been there without problem for years....=
..
but it is NOT a good idea and it is depending on the vast knowledge of th=
e
particular potter, constant attention to detail, and a darn good dose of
luck .
If a town has had a "bad" experience with a gas kiln......... that might
just be that a prior installation recieved a lot of complaints from
neighbors cause it was "unsightly", or could have been because of somethi=
ng
more germane like a fire............ they will tend to look on new ones
more skeptically. If they have never had a gas kiln in town, they might =
be
conservative cause they don't know anything about it. The BEST and easie=
st
places are towns that have gas firing potters merrily being upright,
wonderful citizens .
Your first research should be to find other potters who live in the town
who already have gas kilns. They can be your best allies. Talk to them.=
Find out what they went through to get the kiln in, and also how long ago=
.
Find out (tactfully) if there were any problems..... complaints or a fire=
or anything like that. Ask who in the town govt. was helpful and who was=
a
problem. Find out what permits they needed and how easy it was. Ask wha=
t
they were MADE to do that they didn't intend at first. Find out specific=
s
on that aspect. Get all the prior info you can. Arm yourself well.
Once you have done some basic research and are ready to "tip your hand", =
go to the town offices and ask generally about this subject. Look at a
zoning map at the property you are considering. Ask about business uses.=
Look for other "non-conforming" business uses in near where you are
considering. Ask for a copy of the zoning regs and read them carefully.
If it specifies a building code, get a copy of that too and read the
sections that could apply.
Sometimes you can go to the zoning board before you buy a place to get a
ruling.... but often you have to buy the "pig in the poke", and THEN ask=3D=
if you can do what you want.
In most "more urban" places you will first need at least a building permi=
t
as if you were putting in a new bathroom or constructing a new outbuildin=
g.
If you are a business, not a hobby, this permit may have to FOLLOW gettin=
g
a business permit for the location. There may be both a local business
permit and a state permit. This may be true even if you don't "sell
retail" out of the location....... you are then just a "manufacturing
operation".
This building permit will then open up the kiln installation to the local=
inspectors.... often including the building inspector, the gas inspector,=
and the fire marsahll. This might all be one person :. It will
certainly cause the local building codes to apply. (Luckily the local
codes rarely SPECIFICALLY list regs for a gas fired kiln....this is of
GREAT use.) None or few of the inspectors will have ANY experience with
gas kilns. But they will all have to approve the installation at some
level. Remember that no matter how much of a front they put on, they wil=
l
be looking for any help that can get so that they can look like they know=
what they are doing with this darned kiln thing .
You can USE the lack of specifics on gas kilns in the code to your
advantage. The more well concieved, professional, and specific your
installation proposal is, the more likely the officials will be to assume=
that you are knowledgeable and an expert in the field. Put together an
"impressive" documentation of your background, as well as the detailed
plans for the installation. Give references and quote names. You need t=
o
become the expert. So that they will take YOUR advice on what constitute=
s
a safe installation.
BTW.... if you don't really know this stuff well, invest a little and get=
help in this presentation. You might only get one shot at it. Not only
will it make the permitting issue easier, it will make sure that the
installation IS safe.
Some locales DO have specific regulations on gas kilns written. This come=
s
from prior experiences mainly...... lots of kilns installed or some sort =
of
a problem having occured. An example of this is that the State of Mass.=
requires that all gas kiln installations be approved by the Mass. Fuel Ga=
s
Regulatory Board. Requires detailed plans submitted.
I am not an engineer...... just a kiln builder of many kilns and many
years. On some jobs (quite urban) I have had to get a licenced engineer =
to
officially stamp the plans that I designed and drafted. Not redrawn or
redesigned .... just stamped! The town would not accept them without a
licenced engineers approval. This is a simple review, a (hefty) fee paid=
,
and a rubber stamp (actually....an embosser). But it had to be done or n=
o
kiln.
Whatever you do, DON'T let them classify the kiln as an "industrial
furnace". You are a "quaint" artist , not an industrialist. There ARE=
lots of regs for that industrial installation and they usually result in
lots of very expensive toys. You'll end up with all sorts of
electro-mechanical combustion equipment, and someone is going to probably=
want to discuss effluent emissions.
For example on one natural gas installation I was involved with in a very=
urban
setting, to light the kiln you flipped switches in the correct order at a=
remote panel
to start the combustion air blower, self-check the electronics, check the=
main gas
pressure and main air pressure, and then a solenoid pilot gas valve opene=
d,
spark ignition lighted it, an ultraviolet sensor proofed the pilot flame,=
then a hydrostatically operated gas valve automatically opened for each
main burner, and so on and so on. Yes...... thousands per burner!
Speaking of emissions. It is little known that in many parts of the
country you will need an EPA permit to install and operate a gas fired ki=
ln
to be completly legal. Call the local EPA office to find out if the plac=
e
you are considering is one of these. Some of what applies here is
dependant on the size and use of the installation. Remember ...... you a=
re
an artist potter, not a factory. You'll need to know the total BTU input=
of the kiln.
Often it is a good idea to have something specific that you thought up fo=
r
each of the local inspectors to "find" and get his/her 2 cents input into=
.
If you =
"feed" them something that you know will be cheap and you would have
done anyway, then they won't go looking for something on their own that
will end up costing you thousands . And they will feel that they hav=
e
done their job....cause they recommended something that you should do, an=
d
you did it. Ask their opinion on something they can relate to like a
clearance, not some pottery-techno aspect that they will freak over. May=
be
suggest a value that is a little "short"...... and mention that somewhere=
you read that someone recommends more than that. Then ask what the
inspector thinks........ (more is always better ????). You'll get the
higher number, which you were going to do anyway . There is a bit of =
an
"art" to doing this .
Residential A (housing....period) .......or whatever the local "powers =
that be" =
call it in the particualr locale......., is the hardest place to get a
gas kiln in (legally). If the zoning doesn't at least allow home based
businesses with a permit, you might be in for a long battle. Expect the
neighbors to be against this installation. It often is percieved to lowe=
r
their property value in an exclusive residential area. Residentail B (so=
me
light business use like hairdressers, lawn mower repairs, and the like) i=
s
easier than A. Less "NIMBY" factor. Residential /Agricultural is
generally far easier and should be the target. Commercial and Industrial=
are usually a piece of cake, but carry their own problems at times in oth=
er
areas like the classification of teh kiln as an "industrial furnace"
which brings down all sorts of (expensive) code requirements.
One approach to getting in a gas kiln is to start off with a nice
unobtrusive (NIMBY clean, inefficient, resource depleting......just had =
to
say that electric kiln. Move into town and make yourself a "cultural=
asset". Volunteer to do demos at the local schools. Get involved with t=
he
scouts. Donate pieces to the local charities. And so on. After you have=
become a solid contributor to the town, THEN approach them about the gas
kiln with complete documentation and plans. This often works in places
that might be difficult straight off. But if the gas kiln is 100 percent=
a
necessity..... this is a gamble. It is no guarantee. Just an educated
tactic. (Also a nice thing to do anyway .)
One possible solution to allay fears of kilns is to go with a commercial
unit rather than site built. This will be more expensive per cubic foot,=
but it might make a kiln possible at all. Look for a kiln with AGA
certification. (Guess who that is?....check CM ads.) That means that it=
is certified by the national standards overseer, and that certification M=
AY
be what gets the local gas and building guy to buy into the installation.=
You will then have to put the kiln in according to all the mfgr.s
recommandations. That certification does the CYA thing for you, and tell=
s
the inspectors the unit is "OK".
If you MUST have a gas kiln, do your homework BEFORE moving to a localle.=
That criteria needs to be part of the decision of WHERE to move. Rural =
IS
easier. There are some places (few) that actually and specifically
prohibit any new gas kilns (Concord, MA is an example I, have been told b=
y
a former kiln client...... when their kiln "dies" they've been told they
can't replace it and no new installations are allowed in town).
Hope all of this is of help. Best of luck in your move.
Best,
.......................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752
JBaymore=3D40Compuserve.com =
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