throwing large amounts of clay

updated sat 18 sep 04

jim pendley on sat 11 sep 04

Susan,
do you know if his method for centering and
throwing
as you describe was ever published or if notes are
available anywhere. Thanks

Jim Pendley
pendley@imperial.edu


> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On
> Behalf Of Susan Nebeker
> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 3:26 PM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: throwing large amounts of clay
>
> This subject always brings to mind a fabulous Oregon
> potter, sadly passed
> away in 2002- Joel Cottet.
> Absolutely fascinating to watch him demonstrate
> throwing large amounts of
> clay. He'd plop 50, 100, or maybe 200 lbs of clay
> on a board on the floor,
> wedge it with his feet and then proceed to throw it
> on his wheel. I believe
> his limit was 500 lbs ( someone correct me if I'm
> wrong!) with which he'd
> proceed to throw custom made bath tubs. His huge
> planters, tower
> sculptures, tables and chairs remain behind to
> remind us with awe of this
> man's incredible abilities...........
> However, he was not a big man. After too much wear
> and tear on his body
> using traditional methods of centering and throwing
> large amounts, he
> figured out a way to apply the same principles and
> physics of the martial
> arts. You know how a small woman with a black belt
> can throw a larger man,
> defying her small strength?
> Joel figured out how to do the same thing with the
> clay.
> He taught classes sharing his knowledge and
> expertise to many.
> Unfortunately, I procrastinated this opportunity,
> but have benefited at
> least from his workshops and demonstrations.
> After just one demonstration, centering became a
> breeze and throwing larger
> amounts of clay became ever so much possible.
> Definitely, technique trumps strength.
> Joel Cottet- you were an amazing and generous man!
>
> Susan Nebeker
> Pollywog Pottery
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>

mel jacobson on sat 11 sep 04

one of the most ignored rules of throwing is the
use of the legs.

block your elbow against your thigh, and push the leg.
so many potters ignore their legs...have been taught
to arm throw.
not good.

and, if you are going to throw large forms, try centering
three ten pound balls, one on top of the other.

once you have 30lbs centered, without hurting yourself,
the throwing is easy.

legs, stacking.
takes all the trouble out of it.
and, you never get tired.
mel
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: my.pclink.com/~melpots
or try: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
new/ http://www.rid-a-tick.com

Susan Nebeker on sat 11 sep 04

This subject always brings to mind a fabulous Oregon potter, sadly passed away in 2002- Joel Cottet.
Absolutely fascinating to watch him demonstrate throwing large amounts of clay. He'd plop 50, 100, or maybe 200 lbs of clay on a board on the floor, wedge it with his feet and then proceed to throw it on his wheel. I believe his limit was 500 lbs ( someone correct me if I'm wrong!) with which he'd proceed to throw custom made bath tubs. His huge planters, tower sculptures, tables and chairs remain behind to remind us with awe of this man's incredible abilities...........
However, he was not a big man. After too much wear and tear on his body using traditional methods of centering and throwing large amounts, he figured out a way to apply the same principles and physics of the martial arts. You know how a small woman with a black belt can throw a larger man, defying her small strength?
Joel figured out how to do the same thing with the clay.
He taught classes sharing his knowledge and expertise to many. Unfortunately, I procrastinated this opportunity, but have benefited at least from his workshops and demonstrations.
After just one demonstration, centering became a breeze and throwing larger amounts of clay became ever so much possible.
Definitely, technique trumps strength.
Joel Cottet- you were an amazing and generous man!

Susan Nebeker
Pollywog Pottery

mel jacobson wrote:
one of the most ignored rules of throwing is the
use of the legs.

block your elbow against your thigh, and push the leg.
so many potters ignore their legs...have been taught
to arm throw.
not good.

and, if you are going to throw large forms, try centering
three ten pound balls, one on top of the other.

once you have 30lbs centered, without hurting yourself,
the throwing is easy.

legs, stacking.
takes all the trouble out of it.
and, you never get tired.
mel
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: my.pclink.com/~melpots
or try: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
new/ http://www.rid-a-tick.com

______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.


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Antoinette Badenhorst on sat 11 sep 04

At the time of the Alabama clay conference some years ago you showed me
that. At the time my arms were torn apart from adjusting from my wheels
in South Africa (standup with stool attached to the wheel) to the lower
ones here and a loose stool. I now easily throw 25 lbs doing what you've
said (I know it is not much comparing to what others do) without hurting
myself. I am also making a point of teaching that to my students. Many
people also make the mistake of using their fingers to center. I use the
palms of my hands and try to let the pressure goes into my arm, instead
of bending my hands backward. Since I paid attention to that as well as
the correct height relation of wheel and stool, I eliminated all muscle
pains related to throwing.
Antoinette Badenhorst
105 Westwood Circle
Saltillo MS
38866
662 869 1651
www.clayandcanvas.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of mel
jacobson
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 4:31 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: throwing large amounts of clay

one of the most ignored rules of throwing is the
use of the legs.

block your elbow against your thigh, and push the leg.
so many potters ignore their legs...have been taught
to arm throw.
not good.

and, if you are going to throw large forms, try centering
three ten pound balls, one on top of the other.

once you have 30lbs centered, without hurting yourself,
the throwing is easy.

legs, stacking.
takes all the trouble out of it.
and, you never get tired.
mel
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: my.pclink.com/~melpots
or try: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
new/ http://www.rid-a-tick.com

________________________________________________________________________
______
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

Earl Brunner on sat 11 sep 04

Joel was my hero! I was sad when I heard last year of his passing. There
was a website in his memory, but it appears to be gone. The links are dead.

Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Susan Nebeker
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 3:26 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: throwing large amounts of clay

This subject always brings to mind a fabulous Oregon potter, sadly passed
away in 2002- Joel Cottet.
Absolutely fascinating to watch him demonstrate throwing large amounts of
clay. He'd plop 50, 100, or maybe 200 lbs of clay on a board on the floor,
wedge it with his feet and then proceed to throw it on his wheel. I believe
his limit was 500 lbs ( someone correct me if I'm wrong!) with which he'd
proceed to throw custom made bath tubs. His huge planters, tower
sculptures, tables and chairs remain behind to remind us with awe of this
man's incredible abilities...........
However, he was not a big man. After too much wear and tear on his body
using traditional methods of centering and throwing large amounts, he
figured out a way to apply the same principles and physics of the martial
arts. You know how a small woman with a black belt can throw a larger man,
defying her small strength?
Joel figured out how to do the same thing with the clay.
He taught classes sharing his knowledge and expertise to many.
Unfortunately, I procrastinated this opportunity, but have benefited at
least from his workshops and demonstrations.
After just one demonstration, centering became a breeze and throwing larger
amounts of clay became ever so much possible.
Definitely, technique trumps strength.
Joel Cottet- you were an amazing and generous man!

Susan Nebeker
Pollywog Pottery

Mike Gordon on sun 12 sep 04

Does it really matter as long as the students get the job done? There
IS NO Right Way, only different ways, you might ask the instructor if
he or she would like to see a different way of centering and let him or
her decide which is best . I had a female student try it with her feet
just for fun. Throwing should be fun. Mike Gordon
On Sep 12, 2004, at 3:51 PM, Kim Lindaberry wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> Talking about centering large amounts of clay brings up a question
> about centering in general. . . . I agree with Steve in the UK. With
> the wheel head turning counter clockwise I have always positioned my
> left hand on the outside of the clay and my right hand on top of the
> clay. I interlock my hands for the utmost support. I keep my left elbow
> against my left hip/thigh, and my right elbow on my right thigh. I
> always tell my students centering clay is all about support, leverage
> and timing and not about upper body strength. I point out to my
> students that with my elbows like this the clay would have to move my
> body (which is hard to do).
>
> Now here is the situation I have a question about. I am responsible for
> evaluating part time ceramics teachers in the department. During the
> last evaluation one instructor was giving a throwing demo. I observed
> the instructor with the hands in a reverse position to what I have come
> to expect as normal. The left hand on top of the clay and the right
> hand on the outside of the clay during centering. I have never seen
> this configuration in use. It seemed to work ok for the instructor so I
> just let it go as a difference of style. The question is though, should
> I tell the instructor that the centering method is (for lack of better
> words) not the normal way? At least its not normal to everyone I have
> ever observed throwing including the likes of Ken Ferguson, Victor Babu
> and Steven Hill. Am I doing the students of the instructor a disservice
> by not correcting him? Or does this even need to be addressed or
> "corrected"? Who knows, maybe the way I throw isn't "normal". ;-)
>
> Kim
>
>
> On Sep 12, 2004, at 4:16 PM, Steve Mills wrote:
>
>> Absolutely. Centring is mostly properly applied body weight and
>> relatively little muscle. Opening bigish pieces is nearly the same but
>> the balance is subtly different. The main thing with the former is to
>> work on the side where the clay is coming AT you, not away from you;
>> it
>> doubles the work that you do.
>>
>> Steve
>> Bath
>> UK
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>

Ivor and Olive Lewis on sun 12 sep 04

Dear Friends,
If you follow the teaching of Mel, take care to avoid applying
pressure from your elbow on two important anatomical points. The
Sciatic Nerve and the Femoral Artery. Also make sure your pelvic
alignment is not skewed by the force you use. The first and the last
may lead to severe pain in the lower back and the second to deep vein
thrombosis
Mike Gordon, Walnut Creek, Ca. ( retired) gives good instruction which
would help avoid such problems. And it is a method with an eight
hundred year history.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
S. Australia.


.

Earl Brunner on sun 12 sep 04

With the wheel going counter clockwise, I use my left hand on top and my
right hand on the side. I would object to ANYONE suggesting that there is
only ONE way to do it or even a RIGHT way. Physics won't lie. The proper
pressure has to be applied, and that pressure combined with the spinning of
the wheel will center the clay. If pressure isn't applied correctly, you
won't have centered clay. And I don't give a fig if you use your feet
instead of your hands if it gets the job done.

A good teacher will have enough sense to realize that it is the end results
that matter, not necessarily how you get there. I don't think ANY of the
teachers at our art center throw using the same technique. That's fine.
Students need to see that there are different ways of doing things.

Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Kim Lindaberry
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 3:51 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: throwing large amounts of clay

Hello All,

Talking about centering large amounts of clay brings up a question
about centering in general. . . . I agree with Steve in the UK. With
the wheel head turning counter clockwise I have always positioned my
left hand on the outside of the clay and my right hand on top of the
clay. I interlock my hands for the utmost support. I keep my left elbow
against my left hip/thigh, and my right elbow on my right thigh. I
always tell my students centering clay is all about support, leverage
and timing and not about upper body strength. I point out to my
students that with my elbows like this the clay would have to move my
body (which is hard to do).

Now here is the situation I have a question about. I am responsible for
evaluating part time ceramics teachers in the department. During the
last evaluation one instructor was giving a throwing demo. I observed
the instructor with the hands in a reverse position to what I have come
to expect as normal. The left hand on top of the clay and the right
hand on the outside of the clay during centering. I have never seen
this configuration in use. It seemed to work ok for the instructor so I
just let it go as a difference of style. The question is though, should
I tell the instructor that the centering method is (for lack of better
words) not the normal way? At least its not normal to everyone I have
ever observed throwing including the likes of Ken Ferguson, Victor Babu
and Steven Hill. Am I doing the students of the instructor a disservice
by not correcting him? Or does this even need to be addressed or
"corrected"? Who knows, maybe the way I throw isn't "normal". ;-)

Kim
link.com.

Susan Nebeker on sun 12 sep 04

Jim,
I do not know if Joel published anything, but I will try to find out. I am fairly certain that there are videos of him at work.
Will do a little sleuthing tomorrow and report back!

Susan Nebeker
Pollywog Pottery

jim pendley wrote:
Susan,
do you know if his method for centering and
throwing
as you describe was ever published or if notes are
available anywhere. Thanks

Jim Pendley
pendley@imperial.edu


> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On
> Behalf Of Susan Nebeker
> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 3:26 PM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: throwing large amounts of clay
>
> This subject always brings to mind a fabulous Oregon
> potter, sadly passed
> away in 2002- Joel Cottet.
> Absolutely fascinating to watch him demonstrate
> throwing large amounts of
> clay. He'd plop 50, 100, or maybe 200 lbs of clay
> on a board on the floor,
> wedge it with his feet and then proceed to throw it
> on his wheel. I believe
> his limit was 500 lbs ( someone correct me if I'm
> wrong!) with which he'd
> proceed to throw custom made bath tubs. His huge
> planters, tower
> sculptures, tables and chairs remain behind to
> remind us with awe of this
> man's incredible abilities...........
> However, he was not a big man. After too much wear
> and tear on his body
> using traditional methods of centering and throwing
> large amounts, he
> figured out a way to apply the same principles and
> physics of the martial
> arts. You know how a small woman with a black belt
> can throw a larger man,
> defying her small strength?
> Joel figured out how to do the same thing with the
> clay.
> He taught classes sharing his knowledge and
> expertise to many.
> Unfortunately, I procrastinated this opportunity,
> but have benefited at
> least from his workshops and demonstrations.
> After just one demonstration, centering became a
> breeze and throwing larger
> amounts of clay became ever so much possible.
> Definitely, technique trumps strength.
> Joel Cottet- you were an amazing and generous man!
>
> Susan Nebeker
> Pollywog Pottery
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>

______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.


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Ron & Nancy Hughes on sun 12 sep 04

Last year,I watched a tape of a man (who's name escapes me now) but it
was amazing to watch him throw a 6 foot vase. As he used his neck and face
to help him center. He would thrust the clay into crook area between his
shoulder and face and used that point to push the clay up into a centered
column. It looked like it was fun, I haven't tried it yet as I will have to
tie my hair tightly or I can see it wrapping around the clay and myself
becoming part of the vase.
If anyone is interested I will seek out his name as I think I still have
the tape.
Nance

Steve Mills on sun 12 sep 04

Absolutely. Centring is mostly properly applied body weight and
relatively little muscle. Opening bigish pieces is nearly the same but
the balance is subtly different. The main thing with the former is to
work on the side where the clay is coming AT you, not away from you; it
doubles the work that you do.

Steve
Bath
UK


In message , mel jacobson writes
>one of the most ignored rules of throwing is the
>use of the legs.
>
>block your elbow against your thigh, and push the leg.
>so many potters ignore their legs...have been taught
>to arm throw.
>not good.
>
>and, if you are going to throw large forms, try centering
>three ten pound balls, one on top of the other.
>
>once you have 30lbs centered, without hurting yourself,
>the throwing is easy.
>
>legs, stacking.
>takes all the trouble out of it.
>and, you never get tired.
>mel
>From:
>Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
>web site: my.pclink.com/~melpots
>or try: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
>new/ http://www.rid-a-tick.com

--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK

Kim Lindaberry on sun 12 sep 04

Hello All,

Talking about centering large amounts of clay brings up a question
about centering in general. . . . I agree with Steve in the UK. With
the wheel head turning counter clockwise I have always positioned my
left hand on the outside of the clay and my right hand on top of the
clay. I interlock my hands for the utmost support. I keep my left elbow
against my left hip/thigh, and my right elbow on my right thigh. I
always tell my students centering clay is all about support, leverage
and timing and not about upper body strength. I point out to my
students that with my elbows like this the clay would have to move my
body (which is hard to do).

Now here is the situation I have a question about. I am responsible for
evaluating part time ceramics teachers in the department. During the
last evaluation one instructor was giving a throwing demo. I observed
the instructor with the hands in a reverse position to what I have come
to expect as normal. The left hand on top of the clay and the right
hand on the outside of the clay during centering. I have never seen
this configuration in use. It seemed to work ok for the instructor so I
just let it go as a difference of style. The question is though, should
I tell the instructor that the centering method is (for lack of better
words) not the normal way? At least its not normal to everyone I have
ever observed throwing including the likes of Ken Ferguson, Victor Babu
and Steven Hill. Am I doing the students of the instructor a disservice
by not correcting him? Or does this even need to be addressed or
"corrected"? Who knows, maybe the way I throw isn't "normal". ;-)

Kim


On Sep 12, 2004, at 4:16 PM, Steve Mills wrote:

> Absolutely. Centring is mostly properly applied body weight and
> relatively little muscle. Opening bigish pieces is nearly the same but
> the balance is subtly different. The main thing with the former is to
> work on the side where the clay is coming AT you, not away from you; it
> doubles the work that you do.
>
> Steve
> Bath
> UK

Earl Brunner on mon 13 sep 04

I was a little simplistic in my first reply, I'm not at the wheel, but when
I close my eyes and visualize, I know that I do push down on the top with my
left hand, and in with my right. It works for me, it feels right and it
does the job. With many things I am ambidextrous, and with anything I learn
first with my left hand I can be left dominant. I do know that some things
I learned mirror image from who I was learning from. I spiral wedge
opposite from most people for example.

Depending on the size of the lump of clay, it's really more of a dance;
pushing in on the sides with both hands, shifting to one on top and one on
the side, back to both on the sides, coning up, pushing down. For lumps
that are just a few pounds though, that I can get my hands around, the
primary position is left pushing down and right pushing in from the side.
I'm not talking about riding a bike with flat tires. I am a competent
thrower. I can comfortably throw 25-30 mugs in an hour. I've been throwing
pots for over 20 years. I don't see how you could possibly suggest that I
throw "wrong", not having seen me throw. The fact that you can't visualize
it, or that it wouldn't feel "right" or comfortable to you is immaterial.

I'll go further though. I am a good teacher of throwing. My students learn
what I teach and make good progress applying what I teach.

Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Kim Lindaberry
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:30 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: throwing large amounts of clay

Earl,

I agree that there is always more than one way to do almost anything.
As my dad used to say, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." I
also agree that students need to see that there are different ways of
doing things. However I do think that there are some ways of dong
things that make getting to the end result easier. Some methods are
more efficient that others.

I could choose to ride my bicycle with flat tires, or I could choose to
ride it with inflated tires. Logically both methods will have the same
end result of moving from point A to point B, but when teaching someone
to ride a bicycle though which method should I show them?

In this case I'm not sure that physics actually support your right hand
outside, left hand on top method.

Kim Lindaberry on mon 13 sep 04

Thanks for the reply Mike. I was mainly wondering about this thinking
about if the students goes onto advanced throwing at another
educational institution where the new instructor will possibly try to
correct this method. - Kim


On Sep 12, 2004, at 8:39 PM, Mike Gordon wrote:

> Does it really matter as long as the students get the job done? There
> IS NO Right Way, only different ways, you might ask the instructor if
> he or she would like to see a different way of centering and let him or
> her decide which is best . I had a female student try it with her feet
> just for fun. Throwing should be fun. Mike Gordon
> On Sep 12, 2004, at 3:51 PM, Kim Lindaberry wrote:
>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> Talking about centering large amounts of clay brings up a question
>> about centering in general. . . . I agree with Steve in the UK. With
>> the wheel head turning counter clockwise I have always positioned my
>> left hand on the outside of the clay and my right hand on top of the
>> clay. I interlock my hands for the utmost support. I keep my left
>> elbow
>> against my left hip/thigh, and my right elbow on my right thigh. I
>> always tell my students centering clay is all about support, leverage
>> and timing and not about upper body strength. I point out to my
>> students that with my elbows like this the clay would have to move my
>> body (which is hard to do).
>>
>> Now here is the situation I have a question about. I am responsible
>> for
>> evaluating part time ceramics teachers in the department. During the
>> last evaluation one instructor was giving a throwing demo. I observed
>> the instructor with the hands in a reverse position to what I have
>> come
>> to expect as normal. The left hand on top of the clay and the right
>> hand on the outside of the clay during centering. I have never seen
>> this configuration in use. It seemed to work ok for the instructor so
>> I
>> just let it go as a difference of style. The question is though,
>> should
>> I tell the instructor that the centering method is (for lack of better
>> words) not the normal way? At least its not normal to everyone I have
>> ever observed throwing including the likes of Ken Ferguson, Victor
>> Babu
>> and Steven Hill. Am I doing the students of the instructor a
>> disservice
>> by not correcting him? Or does this even need to be addressed or
>> "corrected"? Who knows, maybe the way I throw isn't "normal". ;-)
>>
>> Kim

Antoinette Badenhorst on mon 13 sep 04

I've seen that very centering thing this weekend, when a person that's
been out of throwing for almost 13 years, were throwing in my studio. I
noticed that she has a different (uncomfortable) of centering the clay
and asked if she is left handed. We changed the rotation of the wheel
and 2 things happened: She first had to re center the clay. Then she had
to swop all the activities between her hands....right to left. That
confirmed to me again how important each step of throwing is and yes
Earl....I always say: " there is no right or wrong way; only a
comfortable way" The logics are the important part. If one understands
that, you are well on your way.
Happy day.

Antoinette Badenhorst
105 Westwood Circle
Saltillo MS
38866
662 869 1651
www.clayandcanvas.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Earl
Brunner
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 1:08 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: throwing large amounts of clay

With the wheel going counter clockwise, I use my left hand on top and my
right hand on the side. I would object to ANYONE suggesting that there
is
only ONE way to do it or even a RIGHT way. Physics won't lie. The
proper
pressure has to be applied, and that pressure combined with the spinning
of
the wheel will center the clay. If pressure isn't applied correctly,
you
won't have centered clay. And I don't give a fig if you use your feet
instead of your hands if it gets the job done.

A good teacher will have enough sense to realize that it is the end
results
that matter, not necessarily how you get there. I don't think ANY of
the
teachers at our art center throw using the same technique. That's fine.
Students need to see that there are different ways of doing things.

Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Kim
Lindaberry
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 3:51 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: throwing large amounts of clay

Hello All,

Talking about centering large amounts of clay brings up a question
about centering in general. . . . I agree with Steve in the UK. With
the wheel head turning counter clockwise I have always positioned my
left hand on the outside of the clay and my right hand on top of the
clay. I interlock my hands for the utmost support. I keep my left elbow
against my left hip/thigh, and my right elbow on my right thigh. I
always tell my students centering clay is all about support, leverage
and timing and not about upper body strength. I point out to my
students that with my elbows like this the clay would have to move my
body (which is hard to do).

Now here is the situation I have a question about. I am responsible for
evaluating part time ceramics teachers in the department. During the
last evaluation one instructor was giving a throwing demo. I observed
the instructor with the hands in a reverse position to what I have come
to expect as normal. The left hand on top of the clay and the right
hand on the outside of the clay during centering. I have never seen
this configuration in use. It seemed to work ok for the instructor so I
just let it go as a difference of style. The question is though, should
I tell the instructor that the centering method is (for lack of better
words) not the normal way? At least its not normal to everyone I have
ever observed throwing including the likes of Ken Ferguson, Victor Babu
and Steven Hill. Am I doing the students of the instructor a disservice
by not correcting him? Or does this even need to be addressed or
"corrected"? Who knows, maybe the way I throw isn't "normal". ;-)

Kim
link.com.

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Steve Mills on mon 13 sep 04

Dear Kim,

Why not ask him why he does it that way. The answer could be very
interesting.........for us all!

Steve
Bath
UK

In message , Kim Lindaberry writes
>Hello All,
>
>Talking about centering large amounts of clay brings up a question
>about centering in general. . . . I agree with Steve in the UK. With
>the wheel head turning counter clockwise I have always positioned my
>left hand on the outside of the clay and my right hand on top of the
>clay. I interlock my hands for the utmost support. I keep my left elbow
>against my left hip/thigh, and my right elbow on my right thigh. I
>always tell my students centering clay is all about support, leverage
>and timing and not about upper body strength. I point out to my
>students that with my elbows like this the clay would have to move my
>body (which is hard to do).
>
>Now here is the situation I have a question about. I am responsible for
>evaluating part time ceramics teachers in the department. During the
>last evaluation one instructor was giving a throwing demo. I observed
>the instructor with the hands in a reverse position to what I have come
>to expect as normal. The left hand on top of the clay and the right
>hand on the outside of the clay during centering. I have never seen
>this configuration in use. It seemed to work ok for the instructor so I
>just let it go as a difference of style. The question is though, should
>I tell the instructor that the centering method is (for lack of better
>words) not the normal way? At least its not normal to everyone I have
>ever observed throwing including the likes of Ken Ferguson, Victor Babu
>and Steven Hill. Am I doing the students of the instructor a disservice
>by not correcting him? Or does this even need to be addressed or
>"corrected"? Who knows, maybe the way I throw isn't "normal". ;-)
>
>Kim
>
>
>On Sep 12, 2004, at 4:16 PM, Steve Mills wrote:
>
>> Absolutely. Centring is mostly properly applied body weight and
>> relatively little muscle. Opening bigish pieces is nearly the same but
>> the balance is subtly different. The main thing with the former is to
>> work on the side where the clay is coming AT you, not away from you; it
>> doubles the work that you do.
>>
>> Steve
>> Bath
>> UK

--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK

Mike Gordon on mon 13 sep 04

Hi Kim,
Well my student, the advanced one ( he throws 50lbs. with ease ), did
go on to Jr. College, and the first day was given the beginners first
project, to throw a 10" cylinder with 3lbs of clay, he did, so was
asked to pull a 12" cylinder in 3 pulls with the same amount of clay
and he did that with ease. The instructor told him he could leave for
the day and they would see if his schedule could accommodate him moving
to the advanced class. This gives me some sense of satisfaction with my
teaching methods as well as knowing that if it wasn't for being in
ceramics for 4 yrs. he probably wouldn't have graduated from high
school at all. It was the reason he came to school. Now it's up to the
next level of education's instructor to further his education. Mike
Gordon
On Sep 13, 2004, at 5:55 AM, Kim Lindaberry wrote:

> Thanks for the reply Mike. I was mainly wondering about this thinking
> about if the students goes onto advanced throwing at another
> educational institution where the new instructor will possibly try to
> correct this method. - Kim
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>

Kim Lindaberry on mon 13 sep 04

Earl,

I agree that there is always more than one way to do almost anything.
As my dad used to say, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." I
also agree that students need to see that there are different ways of
doing things. However I do think that there are some ways of dong
things that make getting to the end result easier. Some methods are
more efficient that others.

I could choose to ride my bicycle with flat tires, or I could choose to
ride it with inflated tires. Logically both methods will have the same
end result of moving from point A to point B, but when teaching someone
to ride a bicycle though which method should I show them?

In this case I'm not sure that physics actually support your right hand
outside, left hand on top method. It would seem to me that it is easier
to push back at something that is moving toward my hand, hip and body
than it is to push back at something that is moving away from my hand,
hip and body. Personally, I think that I would have to exert more
effort if my right hand was on the outside of the clay (especially when
throwing larger balls of clay. )

What I am trying to figure out is if it really makes enough of a
difference? I think there is a difference, BUT I am trying to see this
from a different view point before I make any suggestions to the
instructor (if I make any suggestions at all. I've already waited over
4 months while I think about it). I would never tell another instructor
to change their style/technique, but I might ask that they at least
tell the students that other people do it differently. AND YES, i do
tell my students that not everybody centers and throws the same way. I
tell them that there are as many ways of throwing as there are potters
and they need to find the best way for themselves. I also give them my
reasoning as to why I throw the way I do and why I think it is the most
efficient way to throw.

So does anyone have an educated opinion as to the physics and dynamics
of centering, rotation of the wheel head and hand positions?

Kim

.
On Sep 13, 2004, at 1:07 AM, Earl Brunner wrote:

> With the wheel going counter clockwise, I use my left hand on top and
> my
> right hand on the side. I would object to ANYONE suggesting that there
> is
> only ONE way to do it or even a RIGHT way. Physics won't lie. The
> proper
> pressure has to be applied, and that pressure combined with the
> spinning of
> the wheel will center the clay. If pressure isn't applied correctly,
> you
> won't have centered clay. And I don't give a fig if you use your feet
> instead of your hands if it gets the job done.
>
> A good teacher will have enough sense to realize that it is the end
> results
> that matter, not necessarily how you get there. I don't think ANY of
> the
> teachers at our art center throw using the same technique. That's
> fine.
> Students need to see that there are different ways of doing things.
>
> Earl Brunner
> Las Vegas, NV
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Kim
> Lindaberry
> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 3:51 PM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: throwing large amounts of clay
>
> Hello All,
>
> Talking about centering large amounts of clay brings up a question
> about centering in general. . . . I agree with Steve in the UK. With
> the wheel head turning counter clockwise I have always positioned my
> left hand on the outside of the clay and my right hand on top of the
> clay. I interlock my hands for the utmost support. I keep my left elbow
> against my left hip/thigh, and my right elbow on my right thigh. I
> always tell my students centering clay is all about support, leverage
> and timing and not about upper body strength. I point out to my
> students that with my elbows like this the clay would have to move my
> body (which is hard to do).
>
> Now here is the situation I have a question about. I am responsible for
> evaluating part time ceramics teachers in the department. During the
> last evaluation one instructor was giving a throwing demo. I observed
> the instructor with the hands in a reverse position to what I have come
> to expect as normal. The left hand on top of the clay and the right
> hand on the outside of the clay during centering. I have never seen
> this configuration in use. It seemed to work ok for the instructor so I
> just let it go as a difference of style. The question is though, should
> I tell the instructor that the centering method is (for lack of better
> words) not the normal way? At least its not normal to everyone I have
> ever observed throwing including the likes of Ken Ferguson, Victor Babu
> and Steven Hill. Am I doing the students of the instructor a disservice
> by not correcting him? Or does this even need to be addressed or
> "corrected"? Who knows, maybe the way I throw isn't "normal". ;-)
>
> Kim
> link.com.
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>

Ivor and Olive Lewis on mon 13 sep 04

Dear Kim Lindaberry,
There are many styles of throwing and many ways to make the initial
assault on the clay. These are influenced by cultural, regional,
educational, mechanical, structural, material, design and many other
factors.
Since you have sufficient experience to assess the performance of
others I am sure you will know this and would be able to give examples
of each of the factors I mention as well as explain their advantages
and drawbacks.
So much depends on the height of the wheel, the way this causes the
potter to stand or sit, the absolute mass of clay, the plastic
qualities of the clay, as well as the intention of the potter.
If the demonstration you observed was appropriate to the form being
used as a model, the mass of clay employed and the attainment level of
the students then there should be no problems.
Could be an issue that could be discussed.at a meeting of staff or
faculty meeting?.
From your description <outside of the clay and my right hand on top of the clay. I interlock
my hands for the utmost support>> this is only a small volume of clay,
not the 25+ pounds currently under discussion.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
S. Australia.

.