Craig Clark on wed 15 sep 04
Kim, I'll "throw" in on this one since I have a relatively cool head
right now. The implication of the comment made by Ivor is one that I
agree with completely. Students who are not prepared do not belong in an
ADVANCED course. They belong in a lower level course.
If they can't even center they belong in a beginning level of
instruction. To expect an instructor to offer up remidial direction due
to a student lacking the prerequisite skills for a particular level of
instruction is ridiculous. Kinda like me sitting in on a graduate level
seminar in physics. I simply do not belong there. I do not have the
necessary level of expertiese. The student(s) should not be permitted to
advance before they have satisfied the lower level couse/skill
requirements. The key phrase is ADVANCED LEVEL COURSE...............This
indicates that the course is to be structured for those individuals
possesing atleast intermidiate skill levels. The last time I checked the
centering of clay does indeed fall into the aforementioned catagory.
Craig Dunn Clark
619 East 11 1/2 st
Houston, Texas 77008
(713)861-2083
mudman@hal-pc.org
Kim Lindaberry on thu 16 sep 04
Craig,
In my eyes, anytime a student moves from one level to another they have
=93advanced=94. One advances from one level to the next level. Sometimes =
this
is from one semester to the next=85 In an ideal world what you say is tru=
e.
The reality is though that isn't always the case. Not everyone that takes
a throwing class gets an "A". Sometimes there are those students that
"advance" to the next semester without a complete mastery of all the
techniques that had been covered. They may have had some ability to cente=
r
(but not center perfectly) and they may have had the ability to pull up a
wall (but not perfectly). They may have worked very very hard at what the=
y
were doing and been able to achieve a passing grade, but not really
understand why they could ever quite center as well as the others. It
maybe that their effort and creative ideas were enough for them to
overcome their lack of perfect centering skill. They may have found a way
to compensate for poor throwing skills or bad technique. Art is not judge=
d
on technical skill alone. Many things factor into grading. This is
reality, not an idealized world. We are not talking about a, "...graduate
level seminar in physics..." We are talking about "ART" where the rules o=
f
what is acceptable for passing vary from teacher to teacher, institution
to institution. For instance here is the criteria we base grading on;
1. Working Style
a. Engagement
b. Pursuit of idea
c. Pride and care in work, discipline, and organization
d. Awareness and curiosity about the domain
2. Participation in Critique
a. Response to critique
b. Ability to offer constructive criticism
3. Quality of Work
a. Technical skill
b. Experimental use of media
c. Problem finding
4. Reflection
a. Critical
b. Nonverbal reflection through revision
c. Verbal reflection on the revision process
5. Growth
So if a teacher gets a student (that had managed to advance/pass onto the
next level) that wasn't an expert technically in the ways of centering or
throwing I think a good teacher should try to help him/her. I think the
student deserves to get their moneys worth and at least get some
instruction to help correct some bad habits they may have picked up from =
a
previous teacher, and also to improve the skills that maybe lacking. It
seems that maybe this is all a matter of semantics. When I used the term
"advanced" in the original context I did, I thought it was evident that
anything above the level a student was at would be advancement of course
level. What I said was, =93I was mainly wondering about this thinking abo=
ut
if the students goes onto advanced throwing at another educational
institution where the new instructor will possibly try to correct this
method.=94 As poorly as I may have stated that, it seems to me if a stude=
nt
is at one place and they move to another place they would NOT jump from
novice to expert, but they would have advanced to the next logical level
in their education.
I am almost reaching a point where I am regretting having asked such a
simple question so many, many posts ago. At least I thought it was a
relatively simple question. Thanks to everyone that has given me a
response. They have all been helpful and made me think about the
situation. That being said, I think that this horse has been beaten to
death already, so maybe we can find something more interesting to talk
about.
Cheers,
Kim
> Kim, I'll "throw" in on this one since I have a relatively cool hea=
d
> right now. The implication of the comment made by Ivor is one that I
> agree with completely. Students who are not prepared do not belong in a=
n
> ADVANCED course. They belong in a lower level course.
> If they can't even center they belong in a beginning level of
> instruction. To expect an instructor to offer up remidial direction due
> to a student lacking the prerequisite skills for a particular level of
> instruction is ridiculous. Kinda like me sitting in on a graduate level
> seminar in physics. I simply do not belong there. I do not have the
> necessary level of expertiese. The student(s) should not be permitted t=
o
> advance before they have satisfied the lower level couse/skill
> requirements. The key phrase is ADVANCED LEVEL COURSE...............Thi=
s
> indicates that the course is to be structured for those individuals
> possesing atleast intermidiate skill levels. The last time I checked th=
e
> centering of clay does indeed fall into the aforementioned catagory.
> Craig Dunn Clark
> 619 East 11 1/2 st
> Houston, Texas 77008
> (713)861-2083
> mudman@hal-pc.org
Ivor and Olive Lewis on fri 17 sep 04
Dear Craig Clark,
Thanks for your support on that point. I have sent another post away
clarifying my prejudice.
Come to think about things, I have never seen definitions or
descriptions of "Introductory", "Intermediate" and "Advanced" Claywork
skills though I do have F, Carlton Ball's "Beginners" and "Advanced
Syllabus" books.
I do know that some colleges offer courses with such titles as
Ceramics Certificate 1, Certificate 2, Certificate 4 then Diploma and
Advanced Diploma in Ceramics. Certificate 1 often has no entry
qualifications whatsoever but beyond that the lower number is a
prerequisite for continuation of study at a higher level.
Best regards
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
S. Australia.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Clark"
To:
Sent: Thursday, 16 September 2004 12:52
Subject: Re: throwing large amounts of clay...prerequistie skill....
> Kim, I'll "throw" in on this one since I have a relatively cool
head
> right now. The implication of the comment made by Ivor is one that I
> agree with completely. Students who are not prepared do not belong
in an
> ADVANCED course. They belong in a lower level course.
> If they can't even center they belong in a beginning level of
> instruction. To expect an instructor to offer up remidial direction
due
> to a student lacking the prerequisite skills for a particular level
of
> instruction is ridiculous. Kinda like me sitting in on a graduate
level
> seminar in physics. I simply do not belong there. I do not have the
> necessary level of expertiese. The student(s) should not be
permitted to
> advance before they have satisfied the lower level couse/skill
> requirements. The key phrase is ADVANCED LEVEL
COURSE...............This
> indicates that the course is to be structured for those individuals
> possesing atleast intermidiate skill levels. The last time I checked
the
> centering of clay does indeed fall into the aforementioned catagory.
> Craig Dunn Clark
> 619 East 11 1/2 st
> Houston, Texas 77008
> (713)861-2083
> mudman@hal-pc.org
>
>
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melpots@pclink.com.
Bonnie Staffel on fri 17 sep 04
I agree with having prerequisites. When I was teaching at Campbell, I would
advertise that the class (1 week) was for advanced potters. I was all set
to teach a lot of things that would require thorough knowledge of clay
handling. However, some of these students would show up and could not even
center the clay. That is what my first exercise in the class was so that I
could see the level of ability. As usual, there were always a couple of
ringers. So I resorted to my one-on-one teaching techniques so that all
students would come away with more knowledge than what they arrived with.
After this happened a couple of times, I gave up offering that type of
class. I was so busy with administrative duties, I knew I wouldn't have
patience with beginners although I did before I got involved with the
office. Don't think the boss liked it when I took time from the
administrative work to teach, but I just worked harder after class to get
things done. That was one heck of a job and I am thankful for all of the
experiences I had.
However, funny things happen to make for stories. At one of these beginner
classes, one tiny lady of about 80 years (old????) told all her friends at
home that she was going to make pots that week. She couldn't even center or
get the concept. Nothing would deter her desire. Just her ability to
understand was lacking. So I spent two days trying to offer her a way to
make handbuilt pots to save her face. She finally had something to take
home and I hope that her explanations to her friends was satisfactory.
Thanks for listening.
Warm regards,
Bonnie Staffel
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel
http://www.vasefinder.com/
Potters Council member
PurpleLama@AOL.COM on fri 17 sep 04
Bonnie,
That reminds me of a class I took many years ago at the University of the
Arts in Phillie. It was before everyone on the block had a PC. I had used a main
frame in grad school and kept up with the latest, including PCs. The course
was supposed to explore software like Photoshop. I wanted to learn the
capabilities of Photoshop before I forked over the megabucks to buy the program. The
prerequisites stated very clearly that students had to have PC experience and
if they didn't, there was a two day computer basics class they were required
to attend. I eagerly went to the first day of the software class only to spend
the first hour with the instructor explaining to the class how to turn on the
computer, how to use a mouse, and save a file on a disc. It appeared that was
about the right level of instruction for most of the class. The prerequisites
had been ignored and the instructor seemed to expect that. I dropped the
class, bought Photoshop, and taught myself!
Shula
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
once again California dreaming
<< I agree with having prerequisites. When I was teaching at Campbell, I
would
advertise that the class (1 week) was for advanced potters. I was all set
to teach a lot of things that would require thorough knowledge of clay
handling. However, some of these students would show up and could not even
center the clay. That is what my first exercise in the class was so that I
could see the level of ability. >>
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