mel jacobson on thu 23 sep 04
i would love to join karen in her
assessment of `smoke`.
it is an old story...full of folk lore and bs.
what you fire in your kiln, should stay there.
heat, oxygen, fire.....burn it up in the kiln.
if you have tons of smoke from any kiln it is
the first sign of poor ignition of the fuel.
we find many potters that think smoke from the
stack means reduction. not, not a bit, never, means
only that you did not burn your fuel.
i have had serious arguments at the art center
over building a wood kiln and a salt kiln.
they want it.
the art center backs up to about 50 one million
dollar homes. are those folks going to just sit
there and have salt smoke and wood smoke
flowing through their living room? you bet your
ass they will shut them down in a heart beat.
`but, mel, we need a salt kiln, whaaaaaaaaaa`.
my answer is:
why?
what in the hell is wrong with the great stoneware kiln
you have? use it. build a second one if you need it.
but, why risk shutting down the pottery?
you are in the back yards of homes. expensive homes.
people that do not give a damn about your salt.
there is almost a complete ni/eve, almost child like
mentality at work. `we are potters, people of the earth...
we should get a special dispensation from responsibility.`
that is foolish beyond belief.
our neighbors, their air, their complaints will be heard...and
the city fathers will listen to them....far more than a potter
makin smoke. there is no longer a defense for clouds of
black smoke. people just don't understand.
same for salt. no matter how we argue, the reality is:
it is smoke, vapor, and it is in someone's space.
folks don't like it....and, in many respects, i do not blame them.
i have had a kiln in a nice neighborhood for 40 years.
i work hard at never smoking my stack. no need.
it fires better, uses less gas, and it is nice to friends the
way i use it.
when we fire at the farm...the only ones that know are
chipmunks and gophers.
we keep it that way.
no one cares. and we want it that way.
mel
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: my.pclink.com/~melpots
or try: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
new/ http://www.rid-a-tick.com
Wayne on thu 23 sep 04
Just my 2 cents here.
We replaced the woodstove at the VT house a couple years ago
with a new Woodstock Soapstone one. Beat having an old barrel stove
in the living room, even has a window so we can watch the fire.
(Yeah, ok, bells and whistles, but it's pretty) More importantly,=20
it is one of the "new" ones, with the catalytic converter at the
beginning of the flue (inside the stove proper). =20
Because of this new stove, and it's "new" technology, where we would
burn 5 cord in any given winter, we now burn one to one and a half.
There is never any smoke in the living room, _NEVER_ any seen from
the chimney, except when we "bypass" the converter for the initial
startup. It burns so efficiently, our ash output has been reduced as
well from two 10 gallon buckets a year (metal trash cans) to about
three gallons worth...ash that we use for glaze, and to "sand" the
walk in the winter, and put in the garden. This stove has been a
win-win for us. Ok, enough background. You get the idea.
Does anyone know how to formulate that "catalytic converter"
material? I think placing one on the wood kiln we're planning would
be a great idea. Keep the neighbors happier anyhow, and make me
feel better about using wood as a fuel. Someone once told me that
platinum is involved, as in the car catalytic converters, but the
converter is a ceramic material (looks almost like the ceramic used
for electric insulators one finds in various machinery)...white,
little or no grog. I might end up stripping a few from junk cars to
see if I can adapt them, or put them into a frame and use them that
way, at the exit of the firebox. Maybe a frame I could slip in and
out (like a damper) for the "bypass" to get it going. The extra
heat certainly would help the firing.
Perhaps just a super-high fired ceramic (like Ron's cone 16
porcelain?) would be enough to "afterburn" any volatiles left in the
smoke?
Anyone have any ideas?
Wayne Seidl
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of mel
jacobson
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 12:34 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: chimney smoke
i would love to join karen in her
assessment of `smoke`.
it is an old story...full of folk lore and bs.
snip
jim pendley on thu 23 sep 04
Wayne,
I have a strong feeling that the results you see are
the result of new stove technology and burning
efficiency rather than the converters. I don't
think that they are particulate filters. That much
"less ash" would clog any converter very shortly.
IMHO
Jim Pendley
--- Wayne wrote:
> Just my 2 cents here.
> We replaced the woodstove at the VT house a couple
> years ago
> with a new Woodstock Soapstone one. Beat having an
> old barrel stove
> in the living room, even has a window so we can
> watch the fire.
> (Yeah, ok, bells and whistles, but it's pretty)
> More importantly,
> it is one of the "new" ones, with the catalytic
> converter at the
> beginning of the flue (inside the stove proper).
>
> Because of this new stove, and it's "new"
> technology, where we would
> burn 5 cord in any given winter, we now burn one to
> one and a half.
> There is never any smoke in the living room, _NEVER_
> any seen from
> the chimney, except when we "bypass" the converter
> for the initial
> startup. It burns so efficiently, our ash output has
> been reduced as
> well from two 10 gallon buckets a year (metal trash
> cans) to about
> three gallons worth...ash that we use for glaze, and
> to "sand" the
> walk in the winter, and put in the garden. This
> stove has been a
> win-win for us. Ok, enough background. You get the
> idea.
>
> Does anyone know how to formulate that "catalytic
> converter"
> material? I think placing one on the wood kiln
> we're planning would
> be a great idea. Keep the neighbors happier anyhow,
> and make me
> feel better about using wood as a fuel. Someone
> once told me that
> platinum is involved, as in the car catalytic
> converters, but the
> converter is a ceramic material (looks almost like
> the ceramic used
> for electric insulators one finds in various
> machinery)...white,
> little or no grog. I might end up stripping a few
> from junk cars to
> see if I can adapt them, or put them into a frame
> and use them that
>snip
Carl Finch on thu 23 sep 04
At 01:13 PM 9/23/2004 -0700, jim pendley wrote:
>Wayne,
>I have a strong feeling that the results you see are
>the result of new stove technology and burning
>efficiency rather than the converters. I don't
>think that they are particulate filters. That much
>"less ash" would clog any converter very shortly.
>IMHO
S'matter of fact, when I bought my little wood stove a year ago, I was told
that catalytic converter technology is no longer used! (That might have
been an exaggeration--I dunno). The point being made was that cat-tech was
a sort of stop-gap, implemented when the EPA clamped down on wood stoves
back in 1986. It was the only thing the manufacturers could come up with
quickly.
But it was expensive, both initially and to maintain. So the mfrs.
developed cheaper, less fragile systems which recycle the smoke through the
upper area of the stove (some sorta baffled thingie), heating it and
causing it to burn more before going up the flue. When I get my stove
really goin' and close down the damper a bit, flames do not emanate upwards
from the wood at the bottom, but rather downwards from the baffle above!
And very little (visible!) smoke goes the atmosphere.
--Carl
in Medford, Oregon, where we got "green days" and we got "red days"
(little/no visible smoke allowed!)
Wayne on thu 23 sep 04
Jim (and all):
That's actually two different horses. Sorry if I was unclear.
Yes, the lesser ash amount is a direct result of burning less wood,
that much I know. As the ash stays in the body of the stove, and
does not travel through the flue; obviously the converter is not
going to affect its consumption.
But wood smokes, and the smoke is now "combusted" by the converter
resulting in a "clear" output from the chimney, and also a (welcome)
increase in heat generation...the whole point of the stove (and any
kiln). Creating or adapting a kiln firebox outlet to a
catalytic converter might be a good way to:
decrease the amount of fuel consumed (saving multiples of time spent
in collecting, cutting AND stoking) while also=20
resulting in a cleaner environment. Just a thought. Still looking
for a formula for a catalytic converter ceramic. Perhaps NASA would
know. They use extreme temp ceramics for heat shield tiles on the
shuttles, don't they?
Wayne Seidl
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of jim
pendley
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:14 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: chimney smoke
Wayne,
I have a strong feeling that the results you see are
the result of new stove technology and burning
efficiency rather than the converters. I don't
think that they are particulate filters. That much
"less ash" would clog any converter very shortly.
IMHO
Jim Pendley
Des & Jan Howard on fri 24 sep 04
Wayne
Our 23 yo. woodstove doesn't have anything special.
When the flame from the firebox exits, it passes over a pipe
running from the outside through the flames, this pipe has
a slot cut into it, so, fuel rich flame mixes with superheated air,
this mix then passes into an after chamber through
~7 mm perforated steel plates that have a ~10 mm
sandwich of glass fibre batt.
Nett result, clean burn, ~1.5 L of ash per day.
Oh! another thing, the tendency to bank fires for the night
by putting in a huge log at bedtime or before going out
causes most of the smoke in our village, our method
is to put in large lumps at least 2 hours before banking the fire,
this gives the volatiles a chance to completely combust
& not go up the spout as smoke.
For your wood kiln might I suggest a Bourry box firebox
as it uses the same principle of mixing preheated secondary
combustion air & a fuel rich flame for a long cleaner flame.
Great clouds of smoke out of a wood kiln is a wanking waste.
Des
Wayne wrote: Does anyone know how to formulate that "catalytic converter"
> material? I think placing one on the wood kiln we're planning would
> be a great idea. Keep the neighbors happier anyhow, and make me
> feel better about using wood as a fuel. Someone once told me that
> platinum is involved, as in the car catalytic converters, but the
> converter is a ceramic material (looks almost like the ceramic used
> for electric insulators one finds in various machinery)...white,
> little or no grog. I might end up stripping a few from junk cars to
> see if I can adapt them, or put them into a frame and use them that
> way, at the exit of the firebox. Maybe a frame I could slip in and
> out (like a damper) for the "bypass" to get it going. The extra
> heat certainly would help the firing.
> Perhaps just a super-high fired ceramic (like Ron's cone 16
> porcelain?) would be enough to "afterburn" any volatiles left in the
> smoke?
--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
LUE NSW 2850
Australia
Ph/Fax 02 6373 6419
http://www.luepottery.hwy.com.au
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