Kurt Wild on tue 12 oct 04
Don Goodrich, in his post on Mata Ortiz stated: ....."The innocence of Mata
Ortiz may be nearing an end".....
I'd like to hear what others who have been to Mata Ortiz feel will happen
to the village and/or the pottery in general as a result of the newly paved
road. I would also be interested in any new thoughts (other than those
posted on Clayart in 2002) about the use of underglaze colors that has been
going on for a few years by some of the potters, also thoughts about the
potential of non-primitive style firing (propane) and any other thoughts
about the changing times in Mata Ortiz.
Thanks
Kurt
Bruce Girrell on wed 13 oct 04
Kurt Wild wrote:
> I'd like to hear what others who have been to Mata Ortiz feel will happen
> to the village and/or the pottery in general as a result of the
> newly paved road.
Certainly, the journey to Mata Ortiz will become easier than the bone
jarring trip that it used to be and that should bring more tourists.
Hopefully, that will mean better income for the potters. We can only guess
as to whether or not the quality of the work will decrease in order to meet
an increasing demand.
However, one other reason for that road is a planned silver jewelry factory
near the village (Juan* does not approve of this change, either).
Essentially what is happening is that Mata Ortiz has created a name for
itself that represents a unique quality. Others now, including the
government, are seizing upon that name to further their own interests. "Made
in Mata Ortiz"! It has to be good, right? Well, no. The pottery of Mata
Ortiz is good because the potters who make it have put long, hard hours into
making good pottery. Jewelry made in a factory by people being paid a
minimal salary will not be any better because it is made in Mata Ortiz.
> I would also be interested in any new thoughts about the use of
> underglaze colors that has been going on ...
They really look out of place to me. A bright blue or green just doesn't
look right next to the rich black lines and iron reds of the traditional
pots. Somewhere there is probably an artist who can use these colors to
advantage. I haven't seen any pots using these colors that I like yet,
though. But this is one of those "art" things. I will vote with my dollars
as will the other buyers.
> also thoughts about the potential of non-primitive style firing
(propane)...
Juan's approach has always been to use local materials and that's what he
teaches. But as the popularity of Mata Ortiz pottery increases, we must face
the reality that there may not be enough cow pies to go around. Cottonwood
bark has already been pretty much wiped out as a fuel. The arid conditions
can support only so many cows. For oxidation firings I see no reason why
propane would not do nicely, assuming that they develop appropriate firing
methods for the fragile pots.** I suspect that a simple saggar would do.
The down side of propane is technology. You must buy it, transport it, use
special connections, regulators, valves, hoses, burners, etc. (all of which
cost mucho dinero). If something breaks you are out of business until you
can get it repaired. Remember that in Mexico things take longer. It may take
a considerable amount of time before you can replace a broken regulator or
fitting. With traditional methods if you run out of cow pies, you just go
gather some more.
Spencer MacCallum has taken the position that the only valid Mata Ortiz work
is produced with traditional firing methods and has been seeking forensic
methods by which it can be determined whether or not a dung fire was used. I
disagree. I consider the firing to be a means to an end. If the beauty of
the work can be preserved using propane then I see no reason why it should
not be used. That should not be a problem for oxidation firings and I
suspect that they can probably accomplish a good reduction firing as well
since even in a traditional firing they use a saggar to contain smoke from
the cow pies and build the main fire around the outside of the saggar. It is
a different process from that used by the native southwest Americans to
produce blackware.***
I feel that there will be a significant number of potters in Mata Ortiz who
recognize the special quality that their work has and will not change, road
or no road. Their response to increasing demand will probably be (and in my
view should be) increasing prices. I am willing to bet that there are very,
very, very few members of this list who would be willing to put in the hours
necessary to create one of these pots. I am sometimes frustrated by the
amount of work that it takes to shape and burnish one of our pots to prepare
it for horsehair decoration and that is *just the starting point* for them.
After that comes the intricate design and a second round of burnishing,
retracing each line of the design. They deserve every dime that they get.
Bruce "Mata Ortiz addict" Girrell
* Juan Quezada is the de facto mayor of the village.
** Mata Ortiz pots typically have extremely thin walls. On the other hand,
the white clay that they use is so non-plastic that it probably can
withstand uneven temperatures quite well.
*** In Mata Ortiz a pot intended to become blackware is placed on a small
metal tripod. One or two cow pies are broken up and scattered on the ground
around the pot. All of this is covered by a saggar which is sunk into the
ground slightly to provide an air seal around the base of the saggar. A
stack of cow pies is then built around the saggar and ignited. In the
American southwest the pots are protected from direct contact with the fuel
of the fire by bedsprings, license plates, cookie sheets, shards of broken
pots, etc., but they are not sealed off in a saggar. At the appropriate time
the fire is smothered by covering it with ash which seals in the smoke.
Valice Raffi on wed 13 oct 04
Kurt,
When I first saw Mata Ortiz pottery "in the flesh" at the Las Cruces Fine
Art Museum last month, I wondered briefly about the multi-colored pieces.
Because it was an opening reception, there was so much going on that I
didn't give it much thought - other than not particularly caring for them.
However, a friend with me was really smitten with the multi-colored pieces
and they were selling well.
When Don Goodrich and I got to Mata Ortiz, I had a chance to look closely
at some of the multi-colored ware made by other artists in Juan Quesada's
home/gallery. The turquoise sure looked like Duncan's Papago Turquoise
underglaze and when I asked, I was told that it was a commercial product
that had been used. As the woman in the gallery said, the artist loved
that color (I do too) and the commercial underglaze made it
possible/easier. She then brought me into the courtyard and showed me
around. There were piles of different colored rocks, some soaking in water
and she explained that after soaking, they were ground on the metate and
used to color both the clays and the glazes. A wonderful array of test
pinch pots made from the various colors hung in a rack on the wall.
Throughout the village we were invited into homes and studios. The use of
underglazes was not widespread (apparently) but I did see some containers
of black Mason stain and an occasional bottle of Mayco's black Stroke 'n
Coat. This may be due to many of the potter's complaint that the manganese
was getting to be very expensive. Don bought a beautiful olla decorated
with multi-colored butterflies - was it less beautiful because is wasn't
"traditional"? (no!) The vast majority of the polychrome work was
black/red on white or tan clay. Of course there was a lot that was "just"
black design. There was a fair amount of marbled clay too.
The use of graphite to obtain the shiny black metallic finish does seem
pretty common, perhaps 30-40% of the blackware I saw was finished with
graphite. - Hah!, I finally got instructions! Many thanks to Ana Trillo
for explaining the mixture and process.
I think that the use of non-traditional (graphite, commercial underglazes
and stains) glazing is a natural outgrowth of potters exploring new ways to
be creative AND to make money.
The only firing methods I saw were "open" burn piles and 3 walled burn
areas. Didn't see any propane, but on Sunday, nobody fires. I saw lots of
piles of wood and dung. All of the potters told me they dug their own
clay.
Before I went, I'd heard about the horrible roads leading to Mata Ortiz,
especially by way of Ciudad Juarez, and how easy it would be once the new
road was finished. The reality is that the roads via Columbus/Palomas
(south of Deming, NM) and Ciudad Juarez are nearly identical, a two lane
paved road. It is only the last (12?) miles that is newly paved and ends
at the village. It was more than four hours' driving to get to that point.
Getting there took much longer than coming home; getting the papers in
order at the border, stopping here and there for photos, looking for
oilcloth in Acension (sorry Phil - there was none to be found), and a stop
to exchange dollars for pesos (totally unneccessary as the potters
preferred dollars).
We left Las Cruces via Deming and returned via Ciudad Juarez. Actually we
entered the US at Santa Theresa (slightly noth of El Paso) as we'd heard
the crossing was much easier - it was, the biggest delay there was my
search for my birth certificate within the belly of my purse. Luckily, Don
(smarter than I) announced that we were US citizens and we were just about
out of there. The drive back was only 4 1/2 hours. I did drive a bit
faster than the posted limit of 80km, but was trying to avoid driving in
the dark AND keep up with the other cars on the road.
So while the perception of it being easier to get there with the newly
paved road isn't really true, more people might go for thinking it's so.
While we were there there was one other group of 4 people. The hardest
part for me was the feeling of being "stalked" by potters. As we drove
through the village I could see cars and trucks coming at us from all
directions. When we'd stop we would often be surrounded. Dinner (and
breakfast) at the hotel meant viewing, and in some cases re-viewing, ollas
before we could eat and potters came to our rooms after dinner to show us
more work. Thank goodness Don taught me "Yo quedarse sin dinero" - I'm
out of money!
Lest you think I'm complaining, I had a wonderful time and came home with
beautiful pots and wonderful memories. I can't tell you if the changing
times will make a better or worse experience there. I was glad I had a
private bathroom, didn't care that the hotel didn't take credit cards and I
didn't need a phone. What I WAS happy to see was that the village (for the
most part) had a "air" of prosperity... the idea that 400 potters were
making a living in a small village made my heart swell.
Valice
in Las Cruces, NM
>I'd like to hear what others who have been to Mata Ortiz feel will happen
>to the village and/or the pottery in general as a result of the newly paved
>road. I would also be interested in any new thoughts (other than those
>posted on Clayart in 2002) about the use of underglaze colors that has been
>going on for a few years by some of the potters, also thoughts about the
>potential of non-primitive style firing (propane) and any other thoughts
>about the changing times in Mata Ortiz.
Kurt Wild on wed 13 oct 04
Valice :
I really appreciate your post - it brought back memories and offered one
person's view of Mata Ortiz today.
Thanks,
Kurt
Kurt Wild on wed 13 oct 04
Thanks Bruce for your comments
Bruce Girrell wrote:
>.......one other reason for that road is a planned silver jewelry factory
>near the village (Juan* does not approve of this change.......
I give Juan a tremendous amount of credit for sharing his discoveries with
the potters of Mata Ortiz over the years and thereby bringing a reasonable
level of prosperity to many in the village. Due to the forgoing, he has
attained an extremely high level of respect in the village, his own country
as well as in the US. to the point where I believe his influence may be too
strong and possibly tends to get in the way of change - admittedly change
is not always positive but I believe change is inevitable. Bruce's
statement above "Juan* does not approve of this change" to me is reflective
of how strong Juan's influence seems to be. I wonder if there isn't too
much of Juan this and Juan that,etc.????
>............ "Made in Mata Ortiz"! It has to be good, right? Well, no. The
>pottery of Mata
>Ortiz is good because the potters who make it have put long, hard hours into
>making good pottery. ...........
For the most part true - but when I was there in 1996,'97 & 98 I did see a
fair amount work that did not live up to the reputation that I had heard
was work of Mata Ortiz.
>..........Juan's approach has always been to use local materials and
>that's what he
>teaches. ......
It's interesting that in one of the first photos I saw of Juan firing he
was using a kind of wire basket in his firing. Isn't that a move away from
a native material? From there it's not too far to electric kilns and
propane saggar firing isn't it?
>But as the popularity of Mata Ortiz pottery increases, we must face
>the reality that there may not be enough cow pies to go around. Cottonwood
>bark has already been pretty much wiped out as a fuel. The arid conditions
>can support only so many cows. For oxidation firings I see no reason why
>propane would not do nicely, assuming that they develop appropriate firing
>methods for the fragile pots.** I suspect that a simple saggar would
>do.............
I did blackware firing for close to 20 years in a simple fiber lined
hardware cloth kiln using a propane weed burner. My firings lasted
approximately 45 minutes with very few losses.
>..........The down side of propane is technology. You must buy it,
>transport it, use
>special connections, regulators, valves, hoses, burners, etc. (all of which
>cost mucho dinero). If something breaks you are out of business until you
>can get it repaired. Remember that in Mexico things take longer. It may take
>a considerable amount of time before you can replace a broken regulator or
>fitting. With traditional methods if you run out of cow pies, you just go
>gather some more.............
I don't agree. When I was there I saw stoves using propane and now with
the new road shouldn't propane equipment and propane deliveries be had more
easily and from Nuevo Casas Grande?
>................ I consider the firing to be a means to an end. If the
>beauty of
>the work can be preserved using propane then I see no reason why it should
>not be used. .........
I agree whole heartedly!!!!
>...........I feel that there will be a significant number of potters in
>Mata Ortiz who
>recognize the special quality that their work has and will not change, road
>or no road. ....
I will agree with you there again.
>.....Their response to increasing demand will probably be (and in my
>view should be) increasing prices. .......
That would be fine for my current collection of 15 pieces each purchased at
$50 a piece or better and 23 others purchased at less than $50 each.
>........I am willing to bet that there are very,
>very, very few members of this list who would be willing to put in the hours
>necessary to create one of these pots.........
>......They deserve every dime that they get........
and more!
Kurt
Bruce Girrell on thu 14 oct 04
Kurt,
You make some good observations.
> [Juan] has attained an extremely high level of respect in the village,
> his own country as well as in the US. to the point where I believe
> his influence may be too strong and possibly tends to get in the way of
change
That's why I referred to him as de facto mayor. Juan may be resisting
change, but it is not resisting change just for the sake of resisting. When
I listen to his reasons for resisting the government stamping of Mata Ortiz
work and the jewelry factory, I find that his reasons for resisting them are
based on what he feels is for the good of the village and are not based only
on his own opinions. Perhaps his influence extends further than it should,
but there are few others who could do as good of a job as a leader as he
has. His experience from traveling throughout the world and his dealings
with businessmen and government officials give him a much broader view of
what would be best for Mata Ortiz.
> I did see a fair amount work that did not live up to the reputation that
I had heard was work of Mata Ortiz.
Yes, there are quite a few potters who are just learning and there will
always be a few who just don't care to put in the work required to make
outstanding pots. Fortunately, they haven't started gluing them to the top
of a stick, labeling them "whimsical", or painting smiley faces on them to
sell them at "art fairs".
> It's interesting that in one of the first photos I saw of Juan firing
> he was using a kind of wire basket in his firing.
> Isn't that a move away from a native material?
I said that he used local materials, not traditional materials. When Juan
started making pottery, there was no tradition left. He used whatever was at
hand. If that included a wire basket, so be it. Juan's approach is to use
local materials so that potters 1) understand the process and materials and
2) do not become dependent on an outside source that may not be reliable.
> ...shouldn't propane equipment and propane deliveries be had
> more easily and from Nuevo Casas Grande?
Probably. The cost still presents a problem though. The more affluent
potters should be able to afford it easily enough, but they represent a
minority. For me, propane is pretty much a non-issue.
Bruce Girrell
in rainy northern Michigan, where Fall is finally making its presence known.
Earl Brunner on tue 19 oct 04
Karmien, what do you mean by indigenous? Because the potters of Mata Ortiz
as near as I can tell have no/little genetic or even historical connection
to the Casas Grandes potters who pre-date them and from who Juan Quesada got
his original influence.
Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of BOWMAN, KARMIEN
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 1:35 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Mata Ortiz questions
indigenous
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Kurt Wild
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 5:35 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Mata Ortiz questions
Don Goodrich, in his post on Mata Ortiz stated: ....."The innocence of Mata
Ortiz may be nearing an end".....
I'd like to hear what others who have been to Mata Ortiz feel will happen
to the village and/or the pottery in general as a result of the newly paved
road. I would also be interested in any new thoughts (other than those
posted on Clayart in 2002) about the use of underglaze colors that has been
going on for a few years by some of the potters, also thoughts about the
potential of non-primitive style firing (propane) and any other thoughts
about the changing times in Mata Ortiz.
Thanks
Kurt
____________________________________________________________________________
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You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
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Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
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BOWMAN, KARMIEN on tue 19 oct 04
I am very interested in going to visit Mata Ortiz with group of =
students next spring... this discussion makes me wonder if going to =
visit Tony Roller in the Pueblos would be about more tradional =
indiginous process. Their forming/finishing & pit firings are the same =
as fifty years ago. It is closer!
karmien bowman
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Kurt Wild
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 5:35 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Mata Ortiz questions
Don Goodrich, in his post on Mata Ortiz stated: ....."The innocence of =
Mata
Ortiz may be nearing an end".....
I'd like to hear what others who have been to Mata Ortiz feel will =
happen
to the village and/or the pottery in general as a result of the newly =
paved
road. I would also be interested in any new thoughts (other than those
posted on Clayart in 2002) about the use of underglaze colors that has =
been
going on for a few years by some of the potters, also thoughts about the
potential of non-primitive style firing (propane) and any other thoughts
about the changing times in Mata Ortiz.
Thanks
Kurt
_________________________________________________________________________=
_____
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at =
melpots@pclink.com.
BOWMAN, KARMIEN on tue 19 oct 04
indigenous
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Kurt Wild
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 5:35 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Mata Ortiz questions
Don Goodrich, in his post on Mata Ortiz stated: ....."The innocence of =
Mata
Ortiz may be nearing an end".....
I'd like to hear what others who have been to Mata Ortiz feel will =
happen
to the village and/or the pottery in general as a result of the newly =
paved
road. I would also be interested in any new thoughts (other than those
posted on Clayart in 2002) about the use of underglaze colors that has =
been
going on for a few years by some of the potters, also thoughts about the
potential of non-primitive style firing (propane) and any other thoughts
about the changing times in Mata Ortiz.
Thanks
Kurt
_________________________________________________________________________=
_____
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at =
melpots@pclink.com.
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