Nicol on mon 18 oct 04
While in high school I was excited about the possibility of making a career
in the art world. But alas I was told that it was nearly imposable to make
a "good living" creating stuff that was not a necessity. I have long
regretted my naivete in excepting this train of thought. I am now in my mid
50's and having had a "successful" career in the business world, I am
finally getting back into my first vocation. While I would love to be able
to take advantage of some serious formal training, I don't have the
inclination or resources to pursue another degree at this point. I do
however often find that some individuals that hold a MFA think that they are
the only folks that are really "artists" or "craftpersons" and those of us
without one are not good enough to clean there bushes or recycle their clay.
Enlarged egos are generally not very becoming.
Bob Nicol - eagerly soaking up the tidbits after my day job.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of mel jacobson
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 9:20 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: moral dilemma/mfa
i do have a new wrinkle that i have not thrown
into this discussion.
and, i would like a few of you to answer it for me.
when a person over 50 applies to grad school, and
there are only a few, limited spots in each program.
if that person gets the spot, and a 25 year old
art student is turned away....is that not a moral dilemma?
that 25-30 year old is on a career path.
their life will swing on getting into grad school.
now, a 50 year old person has that spot, and
is doing the degree for `self improvement`.
makes me wonder about the validity of that person
doing, just that. taking that last spot.
i actually discussed that and thought a great deal
when i studied painting at the U of Minn.
i decided to take `adult special classes` at the
400 level in the art department. took the 3 credit class
for 5 or 6 credits. in some cases, tripled my work load
for the class. (not to mention cost, grad credits
are three times adult special.)
i did my own `senior show`, at a gallery
that a friend owned. when i was done, my advisor, bill rhode, said.
`mel, you more than did your mfa, why not take the degree?`
i said. `but, i would have had to apply, take a spot from
someone else, and i was doing the work `just for me``....
he more than understood. he also said, that with `your slides,
resume`, age etc. we would have had to let you in...you could
have sued us.` (he was smiling as he said that.)
but the point was clear. to get into a quality mfa program you
have to really get to work. create a damn good portfolio, have
slides that would turn sherman hall's head. you have to have
recommendations that are beyond superb. in some cases if you
do not have a `val cushing` on your side, you don't have a chance.
remember, i have had over twenty former students get mfa's.
several have gotten fulbrights. three have graduated from
cranbrook, one from yale. six of my students graduated from
kansas city. i know how much work goes into it. and, many
did not get in. anyplace. (there have been many slides taken
in my studio for former students who could not afford professional
slides.) and, a tip for teachers, a few phone calls never hurt when
working for a quality student. that personal call, on time, makes
all the difference.
anyway, this has been on my mind since that last post
about grad school. it is a dilemma. and, perhaps i should
just `give it up`. let it be whatever it is.
but, for sure, i have never known of a grad program that lets
everyone in, just for `self study`.
if there are some, let us know.
mel
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: my.pclink.com/~melpots
or try: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
new/ http://www.rid-a-tick.com
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
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Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
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Louis Katz on mon 18 oct 04
No disagreement here. I have no interest in limiting MFA programs by
ae. I do think it is an ok question to ask and that it brings up many
other o.k. questions, many of which I could argue either way. There is
also the question of wheter this is such a valuable commodity that the
most good would be brought about by only teaching those that would be
able to use it the longest. Not my view but a reasonable question.
My post is really a general response that it is a reasonable question.
My personal conclusion is I don't give a hoot if the person is 105 if
they can do the work, and have the goods to get in and want to.
Graduate school was great for the scope and depth of my work. It helped
me verbalize abstract concepts about my work (I have mixed feelings
about this but that is another post). It was a great time to work. I
learned about my peers work in a way that was much different than being
in Kansas City at the Art Institute. I got to fill in gaps in my
knowlege from undergraduate school. Many things.
Medical school is a valuable commodity and there are too few doctors. I
don't think we are at a place where people should go to medical school
for personal growth. Art school is different. MAybe I wasn't clear
enough.
Louis
Passed a technician class ham exam this evening. Ham seems oddly
archaic with the internet and cell phones. License will become
effective in a few weeks.
On Oct 18, 2004, at 8:07 PM, Lee Love wrote:
> Louis Katz wrote:
>
>> If doctors were scarce and they are, I could see the point, only
>> accept
>> young students, saving lives and all, but our elder students add to
>> our
>> art program in a way here that is palpable. It changes the perspective
>> of the student body.
>
>
> Louis. Maybe we can put this discussion in perspective. We seem
> to be saying that the purpose of an MFA is to become a tenured
> full-time
> professor of art. This is not the case, is it? What
> percentage of MFA students are now full-time, tenured
> professors of art?
>
> Actually, if this is what a student is looking for in a program, it
> is a question they should be asking.
>
> The true moral dilemma would be promoting college programs
> for jobs that really don't exist.
>
> --
> Lee in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/togeika/ WEB LOG
> http://public.fotki.com/togeika/ Photos!
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
Louis Katz
http://www.tamucc.edu/~lkatz
mel jacobson on mon 18 oct 04
i do have a new wrinkle that i have not thrown
into this discussion.
and, i would like a few of you to answer it for me.
when a person over 50 applies to grad school, and
there are only a few, limited spots in each program.
if that person gets the spot, and a 25 year old
art student is turned away....is that not a moral dilemma?
that 25-30 year old is on a career path.
their life will swing on getting into grad school.
now, a 50 year old person has that spot, and
is doing the degree for `self improvement`.
makes me wonder about the validity of that person
doing, just that. taking that last spot.
i actually discussed that and thought a great deal
when i studied painting at the U of Minn.
i decided to take `adult special classes` at the
400 level in the art department. took the 3 credit class
for 5 or 6 credits. in some cases, tripled my work load
for the class. (not to mention cost, grad credits
are three times adult special.)
i did my own `senior show`, at a gallery
that a friend owned. when i was done, my advisor, bill rhode, said.
`mel, you more than did your mfa, why not take the degree?`
i said. `but, i would have had to apply, take a spot from
someone else, and i was doing the work `just for me``....
he more than understood. he also said, that with `your slides,
resume`, age etc. we would have had to let you in...you could
have sued us.` (he was smiling as he said that.)
but the point was clear. to get into a quality mfa program you
have to really get to work. create a damn good portfolio, have
slides that would turn sherman hall's head. you have to have
recommendations that are beyond superb. in some cases if you
do not have a `val cushing` on your side, you don't have a chance.
remember, i have had over twenty former students get mfa's.
several have gotten fulbrights. three have graduated from
cranbrook, one from yale. six of my students graduated from
kansas city. i know how much work goes into it. and, many
did not get in. anyplace. (there have been many slides taken
in my studio for former students who could not afford professional
slides.) and, a tip for teachers, a few phone calls never hurt when
working for a quality student. that personal call, on time, makes
all the difference.
anyway, this has been on my mind since that last post
about grad school. it is a dilemma. and, perhaps i should
just `give it up`. let it be whatever it is.
but, for sure, i have never known of a grad program that lets
everyone in, just for `self study`.
if there are some, let us know.
mel
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: my.pclink.com/~melpots
or try: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
new/ http://www.rid-a-tick.com
Andi Fasimpaur on mon 18 oct 04
At 09:20 AM 10/18/2004, Mayor Mel wrote:
>that 25-30 year old is on a career path.
>their life will swing on getting into grad school.
>now, a 50 year old person has that spot, and
>is doing the degree for `self improvement`.
>makes me wonder about the validity of that person
>doing, just that. taking that last spot.
While I can see your points, Mel, I must admit that I'm somewhat disturbed.
This paragraph implies that the 50 year old has reached the end of their
productive life (or at least is near it) and that they will not turn their
advanced degree into valuable contributions to the field and to the world
at large.
The truth is, people are living longer than they ever have before. There
are treatments available for many of the common ailments and complaints
which might have cut short the productive life of a potter or artist,
thereby extending the period of productivity into our golden years.
Applying to grad school is a daunting experience, rejection can be
heartbreaking. I'm reminded of the recent thread about Law School vs Clay.
For many of the non-traditional students that I've met over the years, they
tried to be practical, they went to law school or pursued the "safe" or
"conventional" path and hoped that they could feed their souls in their
leisure time. In the end, they could not be satisfied without taking the
plunge. They lived a significant period of their life wondering if they
could have done it, and i have to admit that I admire their courage in
actually going for it.
I would also point out that many of these 50+ year old grad students have
20+ years of experience as "hobbyists" in the field that they're now
studying and that life experience can be a valuable asset to their fellow
students in the programs lucky enough to get them.
We cannot know in advance what the contributions of any individual will be.
We each contribute in small, unanticipated ways. A 50+ grad student may
work in the field, write, teach, and influence others for another 20-30+
years. On the other hand, the 25 year old grad student may find, after
leaving grad school, that they're not really cut out to make a living, that
they lack the temperment to teach, they're not articulate enough to
publish, and they're looking for greater financial stability than they can
find as a working potter/painter/sculptor/etc.
I don't know... Maybe I'm just hyper-sensitive to this issue at the
moment... My 55 year old mother is currently in college after spending her
entire adult life wondering if she could have done it... I'd say that her
almost 4.0 average is a good indication that if she'd had the determination
when she was young that she has now, she could have done anything she
wanted. At the same time, I'm 36 years old and, as I sit here looking at my
newborn daughter, I realize that some of the opportunities that I might
have explored before she was born (residencies, foreign study, etc) are out
of the question while I'm nursing, and will continue to be out of the
question for some time.
I have considered grad school numerous times in the past. I enjoy teaching
when I do it, but prefer teaching adults. I enjoy writing and am continuing
to explore that option. I would love to teach workshops in my field
(ceramic beads and jewelry) but have no idea how to get started and fear
that I lack the credentials to be taken seriously... That said, I am not at
a place in my life right now to start grad school. I'm at least an hour
away from the closest grad program in clay (and I'm not sure that I could
get accepted into that program even if I applied) and the financial
commitment is out of my reach at this point. I can really understand why
people wait to apply to grad school. I'd hate to think that my advanced age
(a subject I'm somewhat sensitive to after a pregnancy which was considered
to have additional risks due to "advanced maternal age") would make me an
undesirable candidate should I eventually apply.
Isn't it possible that the 50+ year old grad school applicant is probably
more certain of their commitment than the 25 year old who has never been
anything but a student?
Just exploring the other side,
Andi Fasimpaur
http://www.mysticspiral.com
http://www.justbeads.com/search/ql.cfm?s=mysticspiral
ps... for those who have wondered: i'm doing great. The baby is healthy and
growing... pictures are at http://www.mysticspiral.com/mica/mica_0804
John Hesselberth on mon 18 oct 04
On Monday, October 18, 2004, at 09:20 AM, mel jacobson wrote:
> when a person over 50 applies to grad school, and
> there are only a few, limited spots in each program.
> if that person gets the spot, and a 25 year old
> art student is turned away....is that not a moral dilemma?
Hi Mel,
Absolutely not! Lots of things in the world are limited and we don't
parcel them out based on age--for the few things that are prioritized
based on age (flu shots come to mind at the moment) the older people
are often favored. But I would ask you to consider the following and
then answer your own question.
Should a 30 year old have priority over a 50 year old for a heart
transplant because he/she has more life to live?
Should a 30 year old be moved to the top of the waiting list for a
product that is in short supply because she will use it longer?
Should a 30 year old be selected for an honor over an equally qualified
older person because it will do his career more good?
To me the answers to the above are a resounding NO, and I think
prioritizing the slots available in an MFA program on the basis of age
is an equally resounding NO.
Regards,
John
John Hesselberth
http://www.frogpondpottery.com
http://www.masteringglazes.com
Susan Fox-Hirschmann on mon 18 oct 04
In a message dated 10/18/2004 2:01:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
john@FROGPONDPOTTERY.COM writes:
<< Absolutely not! Lots of things in the world are limited and we don't
parcel them out based on age--for the few things that are prioritized
based on age (flu shots come to mind at the moment) the older people
are often favored >>
Sounds like an age discrimination issue to me.....actually there are studies
showing that over 50, people find new and enhanced creativity with advancing
years. Many of the people that I have taught over 50, have such a energy for
life, are so full of wonderful experiences, and have a heightened enthusiasm for
learning. This zest for life translates in their joy in working with clay as
well as the grand part they take in the class. They are PRICELESS students!
to put it bluntly.....
Date of Birth should play NO role in who is accepted to Grad School.
Susan
Annandale, VA
Louis Katz on mon 18 oct 04
A few years ago at the NCECA in Forth Worth the winner of the student
exhibition was one of my students. She was about 70. Just recieved her
M.A. . I would hire her in an instant as an adjunct. This discussion
has just put her into my head as a possibility. She is now
running/rescuing the local art center. I believe she is one of the few
people that can. A remarkable person with the respect of everybody.
I think whether the MFA programs should take older students is a good
question because both sides can be argued. One of the Jewish teachings
that gets discussed ad infinitum, and for good reason, is that you
should not balance the value of one life over another.... no one life
has more value than another. This can be seen as applying, and then it
can be seen as not applying to this question.
All educational resources are scarce and all public ones subsidized. I
don't think there is much difference between one type of course or
another except in terms of magnitude. But the opposite can be argued,
an MFA program is scarcer and more expensive than a few community class
credits.
If doctors were scarce and they are, I could see the point, only accept
young students, saving lives and all, but our elder students add to our
art program in a way here that is palpable. It changes the perspective
of the student body. Broadens it. I think this is a good question,
just a bit unPC. AND I think the unPC questions often need asking. The
world is not made of exclusively easy answers or questions. Often the
questions most worth asking are neither easy to formulate and are
almost never easy to cleanly answer.
Louis
Maurice Weitman on mon 18 oct 04
At 8:20 AM -0500 on 10/18/04, mel jacobson wrote:
>when a person over 50 applies to grad school, and
>there are only a few, limited spots in each program.
>if that person gets the spot, and a 25 year old
>art student is turned away....is that not a moral dilemma?
Hello, Mel,
I've only "known" you for 18 months, but I seem to recall one of your
mayoral duties is to stir things up once in a while. So since I
can't see your body language or the gleam in your eye, I'll bite.
This is no moral dilemma. It's not even a dilemma. It's simple: as
with businesses and agencies, schools should not use age to determine
which candidates ought to be selected.
Being "over 50" (60, to put a finer point on it) myself, without an
undergrad degree, without the financial support to stop earning a
living wage, and therefore believing that I am also without the time
(in years) to pursue an MFA, I stopped "going there" a while ago.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who has met folks with MFA degrees who
have not continued in an art-related career, education or not. What
about the 55-year-olds who would have made better use of that slot?
Is there a contract for all MFA candidates stipulating that they will
have to continue as art educators or career artists?
Who is to say that it would be a lesser use of the program's
resources to allow a 55-year-old self-taught artist to pursue their
MFA while locking out the least (with some degree of luck) qualified
of the 25-year-old applicants?
If that younger applicant were really motivated, perhaps s/he would
try another program, or apply a year or so later with a more
compelling application, showing stronger desire and motivation than
the old fart who has actually been an artist for thirty years.
I know I'm not the only 60-something whose choices are more limited
as I get older. It's been many years since resumes sent in job
applications have been acknowledged, despite a stellar career and
resume. I can no longer emigrate to Canada. I can't get into the
army. Rats.
Regards,
Maurice in rainy Fairfax, California, recovering from a flu-thang,
and shopping for a car to replace the clunker in the driveway that
now won't go into reverse. Summer is over, I guess. The smell of
moisture in the air is refreshing; we'll see how long that will last.
Sunset is before 6:30, and it's almost time to turn the heat on for
the first time since April. One of our trees has colors rivaling
those of my northeast youth. Go Sox!!! Beat those Damn Yankees!!!
sdr on mon 18 oct 04
Louis said:
> I think whether the MFA programs should take older students is a good
> question because both sides can be argued. One of the Jewish teachings
> that gets discussed ad infinitum, and for good reason, is that you
> should not balance the value of one life over another...
Louis, I glad you mentioned that your older students make the
classes better, more interesting, etc. I always found that my
classes, which were VERY mixed in terms of age, were the
better for that mixture. The older students brought a life-experience
and determination that the younger ones did not have yet, and
the younger ones brought energy that was inspiring - they learned
a great deal from one another. And I learned from them all.
Your student that won the award - was that Barbara whose-
last-name-I - forget? She was doing very sculptural work
when I was there, and was one of the best in the program, I
thought.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
Millie Carpenter on tue 19 oct 04
it seems to me that all my life there have been reasons why I shouldn't
do or be whatever. In the 60's it was why get a college degree,
you're going to get married, but if you are determined to go, be a
teacher so you can always have something to fall back on. late 60's
early 70's, it was we don't want to hire you, young women get trained,
pregnant and quit. Then when I had kids in the 70's, it was we
don't want you because "you will take off too much time to take care of
sick kids or sick parents."
somehow, I made it through college with a "useless " degree in Theater
and Speech. taught that for a while, had kids, kept my sanity by
taking art courses to get the qualifications to teach art. Taught that
for a while, now that I am old enough to start taking money from my
IRA, and I don't want anyone to tell me that I am too old to get
another degree, change careers, or anything else.
the newspapers are full of articles about planning for your retirement
career before you retire, get training before your job is outsourced.
And according to the studies of genetics and life styles, I could
live into my 90's. So maybe I will be able to get into and through
grad school. maybe I will be able to teach at a college, ( someone is
going to have to teach art to those "old folks" who are taking
advantage of the reduced fees for seniors. ) maybe grad school will
just be another one of those wonderful life experiences, and I'll
spend the next 30 or 40 years doing all my art things in my spare time
from the real estate business that my daughter and I have built in the
last 18 months.
The point of this long rambling post is that life is not fair. And
life is what happens when you've made other plans. And why shouldn't
you try for the MFA, that 25-30 year old who has more time, well
s/he, if they are good artists, will get into grad school sooner or
later, and they are not worrying us and our future anyway. So don't
worry about taking another persons potential space, because that is
all that it is, potential..... and it is okay for us, mature women,
who don't have all those distractions to realize our own potential.
Millie in Md. getting back into political activism, put stickers on
my car, a sign on my lawn, learned how to be a poll watcher. And that
was another thing i couldn't do. my husband has been a gov't worker,
and for the longest time, that prevented me from public political
support, and then he didn't want me to do anything that would cause
him to have a problem with his gov't security clearance. that is a
rare treat, watching all those FBI types trying to unobtrusively
interview all your neighbors And besides, I have to be ready to do
something when he retires, after 35 years, there is a limit to how
much togetherness we can stand.
Louis Katz on tue 19 oct 04
Barbara McDowell, now runs the art center. She is a painter. She does a
little clay but I think it is easier for her to paint now. She is sharp
inciteful and funny. I miss having her in the studio. She lives near me
and see her gardening occasionally when I walk to school.
Louis
On Oct 18, 2004, at 8:14 PM,
Your student that won the award - was that Barbara whose-
> last-name-I - forget? She was doing very sculptural work
> when I was there, and was one of the best in the program, I
> thought.
>
> regards
>
> Dannon Rhudy
Lee Love on tue 19 oct 04
Maurice Weitman wrote:
>
> This is no moral dilemma. It's not even a dilemma. It's simple: as
> with businesses and agencies, schools should not use age to determine
> which candidates ought to be selected.
Hi Maurice,
You are correct and it isn't a "P.C." or "left-wing" idea
either. It is simply "moral" to judge each person as an
individual, according to their abilities, and talents. We have
worked too hard to get society this far.
Age discrimination is legal here in Japan. While
the population at large still respects age, the corporate animal
doesn't necessarily have such scruples.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://www.livejournal.com/users/togeika/ WEB LOG
http://public.fotki.com/togeika/ Photos!
ccpottery@BELLSOUTH.NET on tue 19 oct 04
OOOHHHH ....
it actually warms my heart to imagine giving the MFA
spot to a committed senior rather than to the snotty
little twerp who refuses to compromise his artistic
principles by throwing a pot !!!
Sweet!!
Chris Campbell - in North Carolina - who was kept out of
a lot of stuff in the bad old days because she was female
and of course the raise/job/promotion/opportunity should
go to a man who needed to support a family. BAH !! Humbug !!
Chris Campbell Pottery, llc
9417 Koupela Drive
Raleigh, NC 27615
1-800-652-1008
FAX : 919-676-2062
E Mail : chris@ccpottery.com
Website : www.ccpottery.com
Wholesale : www.wholesalecrafts.com
Lee Love on tue 19 oct 04
Louis Katz wrote:
> If doctors were scarce and they are, I could see the point, only accept
> young students, saving lives and all, but our elder students add to our
> art program in a way here that is palpable. It changes the perspective
> of the student body.
Louis. Maybe we can put this discussion in perspective. We seem
to be saying that the purpose of an MFA is to become a tenured full-time
professor of art. This is not the case, is it? What
percentage of MFA students are now full-time, tenured
professors of art?
Actually, if this is what a student is looking for in a program, it
is a question they should be asking.
The true moral dilemma would be promoting college programs
for jobs that really don't exist.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://www.livejournal.com/users/togeika/ WEB LOG
http://public.fotki.com/togeika/ Photos!
Bonnie Staffel on tue 19 oct 04
One of the opportunities not mentioned in this subject, is the opportunity
to teach in private schools. At age 64, I left my studio by necessity and
found a job at the Campbell Folk school. My years of experience in many of
the crafts, including glass blowing studied at age 47 (gee that sounds young
to me now) made the job available. I also had office experience,
bookkeeping and running my own business. Being able to type as well as
having had extensive art training, put me into a good position to do the
desktop publishing needed at the school. They invested in the early Mac
computers and I got into that machine right away. I was definitely an
asset to the organization as well as vice versa. I left at age 70 still
anxious to continue on a career of clay.
So my advice to Andi, get a web site going with your beading and advertise
your ability to give workshops. you could get some experience by teaching
your friends and neighbors. Then apply to teach adult education in the
local school night courses. Start small to get your feet wet and pretty
soon, you will be a pro.
Another couple in their 50's, the wife started as a substitute teacher in
the high school but then became a regular one. Her husband was a
professional potter but was interested in teaching so that he could achieve
a pension. He was one of the most popular teachers in the school and taught
for a good ten years, I believe. Then he had heart trouble and had to quit.
His wife also finished her term to the point where she could retire as well.
He is going to return to potting next year on a limited basis.
When my daughter was in high school, the five county region started a Penta
County school program that taught real career opportunities. They hired
people from the business community to teach. They were not young teachers
just out of school. They were older men and women who had the experience to
pass it along to students who wanted to learn about auto repair, hair
dressing, house building carpentry, etc., as well as running a business
doing such things. I am sure there are many other schools adopting this
plan to prepare the students for the real world.
I say to go for it, if it is in your heart and soul to accomplish another
goal.
Regards
Bonnie Staffel
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel
http://www.vasefinder.com/
Potters Council member
Eleanor on wed 20 oct 04
At 12:00 AM -0400 10/20/04, Bob Nicol wrote:
>I don't have the
>inclination or resources to pursue another degree at this point. I do
>however often find that some individuals that hold a MFA think that they are
>the only folks that are really "artists" or "craftpersons" and those of us
>without one are not good enough to clean there bushes or recycle their clay.
Why do you care what other people think?
That said, I'm much older than you, but my experience has been
similar in that I was turned away from "Art" as a major in college by
parents who wanted me to be self-supporting.
So the jobs I had before and after marriage and kids were hateful and
unrewarding but they did pay the bills.
I never gave a thought to going back to school for "Art". I had
discovered potting and took classes in it whenever I could.
Our second house has room enough for a studio and slowly, while I was
still working, I set one up. I'm retired now and I make pots when and
how I please. And I buy or borrow from the library books on clay and
glazes. There is an advanced education contained in those books--some
of them written by Clayarters--and Clayart with its archives
completes it.
An MFA doesn't make you an artist---making art makes you an artist.
And occasional classes and workshops with good teachers are very
helpful, sometimes necessary. If you are old enough, you'll find that
Elderhostel offers some good ones.
If a home studio is out of the question, there are Guilds which offer
workspace along with classes and selling opportunities which can
defray some of the cost.
Who needs an MFA? It appears to be necessary especially for those who
want to teach in a college or university. I go to a lot of craft
shows and I visit many craft shops. I can't remember ever seeing
"MFA" contained in the artists' bios.
To have that degree just to have it--for its prestige value--so your
"friends" will "respect" you--is it worth fretting about or getting a
huge student loan to pay off? I don't think so.
Eleanor Kohler
uneducated in Centerport, NY
Louis Katz on wed 20 oct 04
>
> Eleanor Kohler
> uneducated in Centerport, NY
>
Dear Uneducated,
I doubt it. Education does not come from educators. It is a process you
impose on yourself. In fact it is not an imposition.
People naturally learn. We send our kids into asylums of extrinsic
motivation, tests, deadlines, and assignments . We wear down any
intrinsic motivation they have until it has taken a back seat to its
evil twin. The best way to get educated is to come to grips with the
fact that you have to do it yourself. Then school can't hurt you.
Ever read Deschooling society by Ivan Illich? He has an interesting
theory on how school is not needed at least as we know school now. He
has wirtten other books that I have problems with but this one is at
the very least very interesting. Been thinking about it since 1975.
We have plenty of "educated" students who can't write an email post. I
will admit that my posts often have big gaps between mildly related
sentences, but that is in part by design. You are plenty educated.
Had a grandmother, I never met her. She never attended school. Spoke
five languages, read four. Was also as we say, well read. Moved to the
U.S. when she was nearing 40. Claimed that she was refusing to learn
English. Said, "Anyone that can't already speak with me has nothing to
say". I think it as sort of a bigoted statement. She learned English
anyways. No need for school for an education. Just look at the
beautiful pots of Daniel Johnson apprentice of Mark Hewitt. There are
more than one way to skin a cat.
I have got to stop writing and get to making some paint.
Louis
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