Louis Katz on wed 20 oct 04
Lili on many things we agree. I jumped up and down and risked my job
telling our provost that we should make the case to rehire someone to
teach graphic designing who was and still is a graphic designer, good
too. He was also a good teacher. Similarly we lost a world class guitar
teacher.
I am not full of statistics about men and women but saying that men are
the source of all women's problems avoids having to deal with problems
closer to home. No defense from my lips for people that hurt, subjegate
or kill others.
Having experineced adolescence I feel I can say without any problem
that the women I grew up with prefered brutish oafs to intellegent
sensitve men. Not much I could have done about it. It was not until I
was in my mid twenties after all the women I grew up with had
experience some jerk for long enough to get a clue that women started
to seem mildly attracted to me and my other sensitive friends.
Women teaching in the classroom are expected to be "nurturing", maybe
motherly. This is unfair, but true. It is not just men that expect
this. In my experience it is female students who demand that the women
teachers be sweet.
Frankly we have an educational system that does not adjust itself to
anybodies development. Everything goes slow enough that the whole
student body goes to sleep. Montesorri seemed like a bunch of wackos
until I visited a classroom. Everybody is working at their own level,
pace and interest. What a great way to teach young children about math,
reading, life and their hands. They maintain and develop intrinsic
motivation. I will note that Maria was Montesorri's first name.
Now back to my childhoood. I t was Rosa Burger who told me I should
have defended her son from bullys with force. All the defense would
have done was provoke more violence. It was the mothers who told their
sons not to take poor treatment by other children and to strike back. I
don't blame women for all the violence in the world but I don't absolve
them from all responsebility either. The fathers expected boys to be
tough in our neighboorhood, but they never (can't underline in plain
text) told us to duke it out.
As a child the only adult I ever heard use the word whore was a woman
who was describing a girl who showed up on our block in a bikini on a
day where it was 100 degrees and we had been swimming. The social
stigma of this word is enforced by women, maybe more so than men. Your
diatribe I have heard for 25 years. If men are such poor humans and it
impacts women so badly, how come women keep raising us this way.
If you tell me to get tea I will tell you that http://www.holymtn.com
sells some fine tea. I really like Pu-erh teas, steeped a long time.
Looking forward to the book.
Louis
On Oct 20, 2004, at 6:52 PM, Lili Krakowski wrote:
> I would urge even our beloved Phil to get some strong tea.
>
> In very early societies (I reject the word primitive) men and women
> DID protect vital parts. Men wore something or other to protect their
> genitals, women often wore nothing, unless they needed to. The
> jockstrap is older than the skirt. In many places men DO wear skirts,
> and women DO wear pants. Cassocks, caftans, certain styles of trains
> are skirts and probably originated in an attempt of the priest or
> priest king to look androgynous. Topic for another time.
>
> I am starting on the last big project of my life--stop sniveling,
> Uruguay!--a book on the Arts & Crafts Movement which will take at
> least 5 years. The working title is "The Problem of Wm Morris", and
> it deals with what happened and is happening NOW.
>
> Let me digress. Earl-- you MADE yourself poster-boy, we did not axe
> you-- felt free to say of women what no woman on the list would say of
> men. (I do not consider it a compliment for a man to say he could not
> have a better mother for his children...But that is my viewpoint.)
> Women may think things, we would not say them. Men still move under
> a protective cloud. I will bypass my customary diatribe that 4000
> women a year are killed by male companion, husband or not, that the
> reason so many children live in poverty is because their dads don't
> care, that women still get severer sentences for killing a spouse or
> similar than men do.
>
> OK. We still have an educational system based on the slowness of male
> development. If the pattern of female development were followed, kids
> would enter school at 4, graduate high school at 15, college at 18, 19
> latest. There would not be all these girls dropping out because they
> are pregnant, they would BE OUT.
>
> Oh yes! I forgot. Boys have raging hormones, while girls allegedly
> don't! The boy who gets a girl pregnant remains in school, remains a
> jock if he can shoot baskets or kick footballs, but the girl is
> stamped for life as well--it is not PC-- she still is a slut. The
> schools which are holding girls back so that, God forbid, they should
> not get out there and excel while the boys are still figuring out who
> can pee the furthest, then slam the door in women's faces later on.
>
> Now comes the real bad news. All those who remember midwives will
> understand what I am raving about. It used to be that midwives
> delivered babies, helped mothers with breast feeding and whatever.
> This however was found to be subversive, because there was no way a
> woman could know as much about women and their needs as a man could.
> (Ladies: when this comes up for discussion, preferably not at table,
> do ask how many men would choose a woman proctologist!)
>
> Within living memory one could become a lawyer by reading law, a
> doctor by apprenticeship. This again proved subversive because all
> sorts of undesirables would become professionals (NO, it is not
> coincidental that so many cities have hospitals named Beth El, Beth
> Israel, Montefiore, Jewish General, etc. It is because it was almost
> impossible for Jewish doctors to be "admitted" to Gentile hospitals.
> The community had to serve its own....)
>
> But the arts, ah, the arts remained free! Giotto and Van Gogh and
> you name it--anyone could play. Izaak Button alongside Bernard Leach.
> Norah Braden, K Pleydell-Bouverie, Lucie Rie., Marguerite
> Wildenhain etc.It was a good time. The A & C Movement saw how great
> it would be if this freedom worked both ways. Morris working
> alongside regular workers, trying to "educate" them in his UC
> aesthetics. In the brief time I was at the Camberwell School of Arts
> and Crafts of the London County Council there were plenty of
> intellectuals and as many working class folk who had failed some test
> and were pushed in to handcrafts. Point being that I expect quite a
> few graduated and said rude things to their "Betters" (these were
> beer drinkers, not gin folk. Nothing rude said to "Bitters") and
> went on to become studio potters.
>
> Alas the arts are no longer free. S.A.C. with its working class
> mentality does not exist anymore. Now it all is COLLEGE degree upon
> college degree. The nails are being hammered into the coffin. The
> idea that free people could learn freely, apprentice, work on their
> own is too scary. Men must rule and force everyone through their
> institutions--it is like free and independent steak being put through
> the sausage grinder. Scary, scary, because this is the arts and
> crafts of which we are speaking. So while their male fellow students
> can father children galore, women must be sterile so they can finish
> their classes, get their MFA and enter male dominated institutions and
> play at being boys.Become as it were sausages among sausages.....
>
> It ticks me off beyond belief that women who want to play violent
> sports--playing at being boys-- are chastised and demonized and called
> names. But if a woman wants to play the Academic Game, elbow
> patches, white wine and all--ah that is ok as long as she does not let
> premature twins interfere with her "publication".
>
> It is tragic that this is happening to clay. I do not care how many
> want to get an MFA. The very idea that an MFA is preferred to 30
> years of WORK on an application for teaching makes me weep.
>
> We do not realize how badly we are hurting the very thing we stood
> for. The notion that "intellectuals" could do manual labor, and
> "workers" have intellectual pursuits.
>
> We are allowing something valuable and precious to be killed.
>
> What is the point of citing Hillel the woodcutter, or Shamai the
> mason, or the Ba'al Shem Tov who seems to have had no real job; citing
> Jesus the Carpenter, and Peter the Fisherman-- and then despising and
> destroying that magic combination of manual and intellectual work?
>
> We need to return to intellectual freedom, to the equality of SKILL
> not degrees, of allowing, like the Shakers, both men and women to
> develop.....
>
> Ah well.
>
> As to sensitive men: Kelly, I see them all around me. The parents by
> and large try. The media and the school environment undermine
> gentleness tooth and nail. The schools bestow special honors and
> privileges on the jocks. The magazines ditto. The films and TV shows
> addressed to boys/young men make a laundry hamper in a locker room in
> August seem appetizing! Not to mention the court system and When A
> Jock Gets into Trouble..... Keep your kids out of school. They will
> be fine young men...
>
>
>
> Lili Krakowski
>
>
> Be of good courage
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
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>
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>
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>
>
Louis Katz
Flamin Pipe Organ (needs Quicktime and high speed acess):
http://www.tamucc.edu/~lkatz/cs/
Steve Slatin on wed 20 oct 04
Dear Lili --
Much of what you wrote I would have agreed with, once.
I think things have changed (not always for the
better) and that some once-valid points are no longer
relevant.
These days, young women go to college, high school (&
even middle school) happily and gloriously pregnant.
A child is no longer an impediment to education.
As for the progress of female development and
education, I believe there's less difference between
boys and girls than you do -- and the typical
adolescent isn't ready for college, male or female.
The huge number of freshman year crash-and-burns
shows this. And for the question of going to college
when ready; the home-schooling movement has made this
possible for a significant minority. My observation
is it remains a rare event, for women and men both.
And, these days, more women enroll at the university
level and complete degrees than men. This particular
bulge in the python won't work it's way through to
the higher levels of government and corporations for
several more decades, but it's already there.
Finally, regarding female proctologists, I, for one,
am ready. Have you ever seen how large the fingers
of those male proctologists are? Joking aside, I
have already had female internists (and an
endocrinologist). I was briefly uncomfortable with
it, but one gets over it.
Regarding the MFA issue; I'm with you. It's tragic
that possession of a degree in ANY field is given
significance greater than competence in that same
field. The single thread of rationale to this may be
that for academic work, success in an academic field
may rationally be considered a prerequisite. Given
the prerequisites to matriculation and graduation,
some of it makes some sense -- you have to draw lots
and paint at least a bit to get into and through an
MFA. Graduates who seek work in educational settings
are expected to teach drawing and painting, with
pottery, sculpture, and jewlery making considered
minor specializations.
Were possession of an MFA considered a prerequisite
solely for academic positions, it would be
marginally acceptable. Given that it's sometimes
used as a qualification for artistry, it's quite
foolish. Does one ask for evidence of Robert Burns'
education, or Shakespeare's? Did DaVinci need a
degree, or Raphael, or Rodin?
Best wishes -- Steve Slatin
--- Lili Krakowski wrote:
> I would urge even our beloved Phil to get some
> strong tea.
>
>
=====
Steve Slatin -- Lies told, whiskey hauled, widows tended.
Sequim, Washington, USA
__________________________________
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Lili Krakowski on wed 20 oct 04
I would urge even our beloved Phil to get some strong tea.
In very early societies (I reject the word primitive) men and women DID =
protect vital parts. Men wore something or other to protect their =
genitals, women often wore nothing, unless they needed to. The =
jockstrap is older than the skirt. In many places men DO wear skirts, =
and women DO wear pants. Cassocks, caftans, certain styles of trains =
are skirts and probably originated in an attempt of the priest or priest =
king to look androgynous. Topic for another time.=20
I am starting on the last big project of my life--stop sniveling, =
Uruguay!--a book on the Arts & Crafts Movement which will take at least =
5 years. The working title is "The Problem of Wm Morris", and it deals =
with what happened and is happening NOW.
Let me digress. Earl-- you MADE yourself poster-boy, we did not axe =
you-- felt free to say of women what no woman on the list would say of =
men. (I do not consider it a compliment for a man to say he could not =
have a better mother for his children...But that is my viewpoint.) =
Women may think things, we would not say them. Men still move under a =
protective cloud. I will bypass my customary diatribe that 4000 women a =
year are killed by male companion, husband or not, that the reason so =
many children live in poverty is because their dads don't care, that =
women still get severer sentences for killing a spouse or similar than =
men do. =20
OK. We still have an educational system based on the slowness of male =
development. If the pattern of female development were followed, kids =
would enter school at 4, graduate high school at 15, college at 18, 19 =
latest. There would not be all these girls dropping out because they =
are pregnant, they would BE OUT.
Oh yes! I forgot. Boys have raging hormones, while girls allegedly =
don't! The boy who gets a girl pregnant remains in school, remains a =
jock if he can shoot baskets or kick footballs, but the girl is stamped =
for life as well--it is not PC-- she still is a slut. The schools which =
are holding girls back so that, God forbid, they should not get out =
there and excel while the boys are still figuring out who can pee the =
furthest, then slam the door in women's faces later on.
Now comes the real bad news. All those who remember midwives will =
understand what I am raving about. It used to be that midwives =
delivered babies, helped mothers with breast feeding and whatever. This =
however was found to be subversive, because there was no way a woman =
could know as much about women and their needs as a man could. (Ladies: =
when this comes up for discussion, preferably not at table, do ask how =
many men would choose a woman proctologist!)
Within living memory one could become a lawyer by reading law, a doctor =
by apprenticeship. This again proved subversive because all sorts of =
undesirables would become professionals (NO, it is not coincidental that =
so many cities have hospitals named Beth El, Beth Israel, Montefiore, =
Jewish General, etc. It is because it was almost impossible for Jewish =
doctors to be "admitted" to Gentile hospitals. The community had to =
serve its own....) =20
But the arts, ah, the arts remained free! Giotto and Van Gogh and you =
name it--anyone could play. Izaak Button alongside Bernard Leach. =
Norah Braden, K Pleydell-Bouverie, Lucie Rie., Marguerite Wildenhain =
etc.It was a good time. The A & C Movement saw how great it would be if =
this freedom worked both ways. Morris working alongside regular =
workers, trying to "educate" them in his UC aesthetics. In the brief =
time I was at the Camberwell School of Arts and Crafts of the London =
County Council there were plenty of intellectuals and as many working =
class folk who had failed some test and were pushed in to handcrafts. =
Point being that I expect quite a few graduated and said rude things to =
their "Betters" (these were beer drinkers, not gin folk. Nothing rude =
said to "Bitters") and went on to become studio potters.
Alas the arts are no longer free. S.A.C. with its working class =
mentality does not exist anymore. Now it all is COLLEGE degree upon =
college degree. The nails are being hammered into the coffin. The idea =
that free people could learn freely, apprentice, work on their own is =
too scary. Men must rule and force everyone through their =
institutions--it is like free and independent steak being put through =
the sausage grinder. Scary, scary, because this is the arts and crafts =
of which we are speaking. So while their male fellow students can =
father children galore, women must be sterile so they can finish their =
classes, get their MFA and enter male dominated institutions and play at =
being boys.Become as it were sausages among sausages.....
It ticks me off beyond belief that women who want to play violent =
sports--playing at being boys-- are chastised and demonized and called =
names. But if a woman wants to play the Academic Game, elbow patches, =
white wine and all--ah that is ok as long as she does not let premature =
twins interfere with her "publication". =20
It is tragic that this is happening to clay. I do not care how many =
want to get an MFA. The very idea that an MFA is preferred to 30 years =
of WORK on an application for teaching makes me weep.
We do not realize how badly we are hurting the very thing we stood for. =
The notion that "intellectuals" could do manual labor, and "workers" =
have intellectual pursuits. =20
We are allowing something valuable and precious to be killed.
What is the point of citing Hillel the woodcutter, or Shamai the mason, =
or the Ba'al Shem Tov who seems to have had no real job; citing Jesus =
the Carpenter, and Peter the Fisherman-- and then despising and =
destroying that magic combination of manual and intellectual work?=20
We need to return to intellectual freedom, to the equality of SKILL not =
degrees, of allowing, like the Shakers, both men and women to =
develop.....
Ah well.=20
As to sensitive men: Kelly, I see them all around me. The parents by =
and large try. The media and the school environment undermine =
gentleness tooth and nail. The schools bestow special honors and =
privileges on the jocks. The magazines ditto. The films and TV shows =
addressed to boys/young men make a laundry hamper in a locker room in =
August seem appetizing! Not to mention the court system and When A Jock =
Gets into Trouble..... Keep your kids out of school. They will be fine =
young men...=20
Lili Krakowski
Be of good courage
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