pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on thu 21 oct 04
Are you trying to draw me in?
I will step lightly...below...amid...and in good humor...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lili Krakowski"
> I would urge even our beloved Phil to get some strong tea.
Well...some much deserved cup(s) of just-made Cafe noir,
> In very early societies (I reject the word primitive) men
> and women DID protect vital parts.
I should suppose to...
Although, since Eden, we
may note the many
contentions which vie, or have vied, as to just what sort of
best. As well, the how it may be arrayed, or for whom, and
by whom...where too, some advocate or prefer to have it over
the eyes...which I gather, works best of all.
> Men wore something or
> other to protect their genitals, women often wore nothing,
> unless they needed to. The jockstrap is older than the
> skirt. In many places men DO wear skirts, and women DO
Well, certainly, those in cooler climes tended to have
additional interests to answer...as well, should they have
posessed the Horse, and in what sorts of terrain they did
so. Protection or warmth for the legs, would also have been
of interest to either gender...
There is an 'Ice-Mummy' found some years ago...a
Woman...some thousands of years old. Siberia, or Mongolia or
something. She was likely quite
pretty too, light hair I think, tallish, slender, light
skin, had very
fine well made clothings, garments, tall supple Boots, Silk
shirt, some flax blouse maybe, Leather Jacket I think...
various quite well done and colorful tattoos, some Gold
trousers I think
also, but I am not sure, and was of an Equestrian people...
I sense they enjoyed a vivid Life...
> Cassocks, caftans, certain styles of trains are
> skirts and probably originated in an attempt of the priest
> or priest king to look androgynous. Topic for another
Or garments retained from other than Horse-People logics,
Now... old King 'Tut' is said to have been rather more than
merely having sought to strategically appear to be an
memory serve...or I think it was Tut, maybe it was someone
else...who was a Hermaphrodite...
> I am starting on the last big project of my life--stop
> sniveling, Uruguay!
My Grandfather's brother (on my father's side) settled there
from Russia in 1916...or is it Paruguay? Well, no matter,
but, in theory, I have relativos there...who could write
Spanish phonetically in Cyrillic I expect...so, if you go
there, would you see if you can find them for me? I mean,
you could just thumb through a 'phone book or two. Tell them
I said "Hello"...?
--a book on the Arts & Crafts Movement
> which will take at least 5 years. The working title is
> Problem of Wm Morris", and it deals with what happened
> is happening NOW.
This will be a large Book I imagine...
Is it sort of like postmodernism meets the Ghosts of
I would love to read it...!
> Let me digress. Earl-- you MADE yourself poster-boy, we
> not axe you-- felt free to say of women what no woman on
> list would say of men. (I do not consider it a compliment
> for a man to say he could not have a better mother for his
> children...But that is my viewpoint.) Women may think
> things, we would not say them.
Thanks Earl, again, for your kind mention...
Women may think them...and look like they are thinking
them...and palpably emminate that they are feeling-thinking
which is about as good as 'saying' them with every pore of
their body, I think, no?
Paralinguistics...can be ever so much more...profound...
> Men still move under a
> protective cloud.
Like 'pig-pen' in the old 'Peanuts' comic strips?
> I will bypass my customary diatribe
> 4000 women a year are killed by male companion, husband or
> not, that the reason so many children live in poverty is
> because their dads don't care, that women still get
> sentences for killing a spouse or similar than men do.
The otherwise unassayed counterpoint to which, may be, the
of men who died young, die young, will die young, or
to make Women
'happy'... or, in
feeling obliged to put up with them in close quarters,
prolongedly....that is, spousally or the like, or that is,
the ones who
prudence of electing a home...with those nice, hard, steep,
polishes 'Stairs' as go from the Attic, or, to the
'basement' or something...
Pennance...hath many forms and fruitions...even as sin
does...or, eventuations, anyway, of either...one way or the
( - which sentences were written while laughing good
just so you
know...as the whole, for that matter...)
> OK. We still have an educational system based on the
> slowness of male development. If the pattern of female
> development were followed, kids would enter school at 4,
> graduate high school at 15, college at 18, 19 latest.
And have kids themselves ( like they are doing now,) at
9...or 10...or waiting till11 even...
Have you visited a 'middleschool' lately, on openhouse
nights or whatever they are called?
Girl students show up handing their babys to their own
siblings, as they enter their classrooms with their parents,
to see the stick figure drawings and vinyl
abstracts and cartoondinasaurposters on the walls and so
But then too, a lot of this is attributed to the hormones in
dairy products, and meat products...
> would not be all these girls dropping out because they are
> pregnant, they would BE OUT.
I think they should merely, logically, kindly, combine
'self' infant day-care for the pupil-mothers, with grammar
and hi-school, so the
little babys may not be seperated from their young mothers,
and, as well, basic maternal skills could be gently
addressed or remediated for those lacking them, with actual
babys on-hand, to do so with. As well to not unduely
Boys could also discover more about these matters first hand
that way...in case it interest them to do...and it
might. In fact, they let them have a go round the class,
with a (well, maybe
warmed a little bit first as a basic courtesy) Duck-Bill
Speculum or what...might just increase the enrolls of the
otherwise languishing 'Chess Club' or something...or
Anyway, that sure as hell woulda put the kaibosh on my
tender ethereal curiousities for a while if I were10 or 11
> Oh yes! I forgot. Boys have raging hormones, while girls
> allegedly don't!
I think this error of supposition, or of pretense, or of the
end of modesty
anyway, has been corrected now...to meet more up-to-date
standards of deportment and example...or commerce, or
installment-plan-emotional-suicide, or something...
> The boy who gets a girl pregnant remains
> in school, remains a jock if he can shoot baskets or kick
> footballs, but the girl is stamped for life as well--it is
> not PC-- she still is a slut.
I will agree that there have been
disappointments...compounded or confluent
as they may be, unto tragedies, inarticulate and un-noticed
tragedies, inarticulate rage even,
rebellion, depression, withdrawl,
or ennui, spiritual amentias, or wan surrender...and
kinds, of many
things...in many ways...of, and to, many people...
Most of which we may find to eventuate in marriage, or other
experiments in reciprocal torture.
But as for a differing side light, see the old film
'Splendor in the Grass'...
That view seems long forgotten...
Or that anyone may 'matter'...deeply, or as other than an
object of passing-topical or political use, seems curiously
lost now...in them eddied shallows...
> The schools which are
> girls back so that, God forbid, they should not get out
> there and excel while the boys are still figuring out who
> can pee the furthest, then slam the door in women's faces
> later on.
Truely, these matters have not been so happy as one may have
hoped...nor so happy as I may have hoped...
> Now comes the real bad news. All those who remember
> midwives will understand what I am raving about. It used
> be that midwives delivered babies, helped mothers with
> breast feeding and whatever. This however was found to be
> subversive, because there was no way a woman could know as
> much about women and their needs as a man could.
I would add, that doctors and hospitals generally have done
much worse than midwyfes did...and continue to do worse,
much worse, usually.
Or, phrased positively, if the prospective Mother is
and sane, then, an experienced, intelligent midwife, or any
is to be infinitely prefered, and, in fact, would be ( the
Midwife I mean, or the other, in-a-pinch,) elected
by such, as
> when this comes up for discussion, preferably not at
> do ask how many men would choose a woman proctologist!)
Well, too, some men are into that...as are some women...
But I would not tend to be too anxious to choose anyone in
regard, and no, it is not Freudian, rather, it is none of
their business thank you. If they are compelled in wishing
to indulge such
curiousities, they should have to woo me first i would
think, only to find disappointment for having done so, so
far as that aspire of theirs. Or, I prefer other activities
for social interactions, anyway...let alone I should be
expected to pay them for it. I do not think that is a very
wholesome occupation for anyone anyway...even if they
charged a little more to say, dress like 'Little Bo-Peep' or
something...you know, looking for a 'sheep'...and ya never
know, maybe one is hideing...'there'...! - ?
But a Woman Physician, Engineer, Chemist, long haul Trucker,
or anything just about, if I
respected her attitude and learning and stance in it, sure,
I would be happy.
I pretty much take people as individuals, and not as genders
Too, I like people, which makes matters a lot easier, even
if I do seem critical of some things sometimes...it is
actually that I am critical in some ways because I do like
people... if that makes sense, and maybe, it doesn't too...
My disappointments have evolved from how hard so many of
them have labored to disabuse me of my happy regard of
> Within living memory one could become a lawyer by reading
> law, a doctor by apprenticeship.
Or an Architect, or an Engineer, or many things...in fact
all the things...untill recently...
> This again proved
> subversive because all sorts of undesirables would become
> professionals (NO, it is not coincidental that so many
> cities have hospitals named Beth El, Beth Israel,
> Montefiore, Jewish General, etc. It is because it was
> almost impossible for Jewish doctors to be "admitted" to
> Gentile hospitals. The community had to serve its
...well..the whole culture slid sideways, anyway...and
hospitals are among the worst most shamelss heartless
rackets...they are shrines to victim makeing, and victim
I detest them uterly.
There is an old film I like..."The Hospital" it is called...
Geo.C.Scott, Dianna Rig...cool film...you should see it...
I wish I could meet a gal like the Dianna Rig character in
> But the arts, ah, the arts remained free! Giotto and Van
> Gogh and you name it--anyone could play.
Well, sort of, or being dead seemed to help too...or one's
agent having good connections seemed to help...as far as the
big (ill gotten) dough, anyway, or
that is to say, so far as the more extremes of the absurd,
or the grotesque
anyway...which big dough seems to prefer, create...or is...
> Izaak Button
> alongside Bernard Leach. Norah Braden, K
> Pleydell-Bouverie, Lucie Rie., Marguerite Wildenhain
> was a good time. The A & C Movement saw how great it
> be if this freedom worked both ways.
Or the experiment America was intended to be...
Gentlemen Farmers, Gentlewomen likewise...
The Social Contract...
Ethical, dedicated, sincere Amateurs...in all walks of
No 'professional' politicians, beurocrats or soldiers...
A well armed Militia...
> Morris working
> alongside regular workers, trying to "educate" them in
> UC aesthetics. In the brief time I was at the Camberwell
> School of Arts and Crafts of the London County Council
> were plenty of intellectuals and as many working class
> who had failed some test and were pushed in to handcrafts.
We have lived, are living, in curiously sad times...
The poor Arts and Crafts Revival Movement...
Oh well...they made such swell stuff...they tried...they
made their point I guess...and faded...wilted...died
back...some sprouts come up sometimes...amid the weeds...
Even Henry Ford used to dab-an-eye for his sense of loss to
see so much passing...of individual Artisans, and their
wisdoms...and of something more, as is harder to name
> Point being that I expect quite a few graduated and said
> rude things to their "Betters" (these were beer
> not gin folk. Nothing rude said to "Bitters") and went
> to become studio potters.
> Alas the arts are no longer free. S.A.C. with its working
> class mentality does not exist anymore. Now it all is
> COLLEGE degree upon college degree. The nails are being
> hammered into the coffin. The idea that free people
> learn freely, apprentice, work on their own is too scary.
Yes...unless something come from an instution, or a
corporation, or a beurocracy, it is not to
People live 'in' institutions now, they have been bred to
it psychologically...their worlds and
cosmologies are defined
by them...seen and unseen as
such...such are their effective 'gods' from whom blessings
descend, to whom sacrifices and protracted obsequies are
made...or , as may be...
See that 'Tomatoe' whose seeds were sprouting in the flesh
of the still unripe thing...
But of course, you can trust...monsanto...
> Men must rule and force everyone through their
> institutions--it is like free and independent steak being
> put through the sausage grinder.
Women reward them for it, for doing so, with sex and
admirations and clinging to them like baby Possums...useing
them as they may, feeding off their
material wealth and privlige or drive, in the whole danse
of death as passeth for 'love' or lust-politics, or the
politics of vanity, or their competition with eachother, or
career or success,
these sorry latitudes. Women enable them in these
ways...and, not in other wholesome ways...
All about 'that'...
I get to see it from a Man's point of view...
Now what is the Woman's point of view...on that?
That Women engourage or respect or support or insist on,
what may be noble and honorable
in a Man?
That...and the Passenger Pigeon...fly bye at about the same
Here, let me grab my Binoculars...I think I see a dot on the
Uhhhhhh....hmmmm...oh well...just some kid's balloon from a
party as got let go of...looks like 'barney' I think...
That Men support and encourage and respect what is honorable
or noble in a Women?
> Scary, scary, because
> is the arts and crafts of which we are speaking. So while
> their male fellow students can father children galore,
> must be sterile so they can finish their classes, get
> MFA and enter male dominated institutions and play at
> boys.Become as it were sausages among sausages.....
If they did not wish to be (or remain) a 'sausage' why
admittance to be processed by factories as produce them?
Why become one?
Or...maybe they should be more careful about playing
Do they need course-studies in these matters? "101" and so
on? You know, "Okay girls, now...if you
put THIS 'there'...and...say giddy-up..."
Like that? Oweing to how they are so 'bright' and all?
Brighter than 'boys'?
> It ticks me off beyond belief that women who want to play
> violent sports--playing at being boys-- are chastised and
> demonized and called names. But if a woman wants to play
> the Academic Game, elbow patches, white wine and all--ah
> that is ok as long as she does not let premature twins
> interfere with her "publication".
Harry Truman I think it was...used to say, "If you can;'t
stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."
I think...he was right...
Maybe people would do well to re-evaluate these 'games' and
to really ask themselves "why" they may wish to play them?
Which would be far more genuinely educational, than playing
them...and being played by them...or, would at least
be...a different view...of them...
Who is the referee? Anyway?
> It is tragic that this is happening to clay. I do not
> how many want to get an MFA. The very idea that an MFA is
> preferred to 30 years of WORK on an application for
> teaching makes me weep.
Preferred by whom? What order or quality of whom? And for
Was it Thoreau who observed...that people seemed to respect
what they see respected, rather than to respect what is
What does our culture know of respect?
How is such demonstrated in actual behavor?
Ideology? Realizations of ideology? Apprehensions on which
ideology may be based? Lived?
> We do not realize how badly we are hurting the very thing
> stood for. The notion that "intellectuals" could do
> labor, and "workers" have intellectual pursuits.
I did allright with it, but then too, I may not suit the
bill as for being an intellectual...
...it was already too 'late'...by then...swept along in the
river...the swimmers forgot where the shore is, or, that
there even was one...or that they might have crossed the
river rather then being swept along in it...but thence
anyway...log-rafts, bound of weary
souls...headed to the Saw Mills of things...sodden...and
some sink, too, who escape the ropes...that-a-way...
> We are allowing something valuable and precious to be
"The dreadful we fear...has already happenned..."
"The dreadful we fear...is the fear-of-the-dreadful."
---- I forget who...
> What is the point of citing Hillel the woodcutter, or
> the mason, or the Ba'al Shem Tov who seems to have had no
> real job; citing Jesus the Carpenter, and Peter the
> Fisherman-- and then despising and destroying that magic
> combination of manual and intellectual work?
They will kill you...if the get the chance...
And for most people...they already did...
> We need to return to intellectual freedom, to the equality
> of SKILL not degrees, of allowing, like the Shakers, both
> men and women to develop.....
That would be nice...
The Shakers, we may recall too...did not play
'hide-the-salamii'...nor thence to lament of it's abrasive
hastes, or of it's gone
They were practical Mystics and pragmatic-impiricists...not
banality-makers...they had 'poise'...grew 'seeds'...
If they were still there to join, or as they had been a
hundred-and-eighty years ago give or take, I'd be there, or
on my way... tomorrow...I'd leave everything, pack-a-bag, 'n
go...I'd walk there if I had to...
Only there is no where to go now-a-days, as I know of, as
amounts to much of anything but more-of-the-same no-where...
...all the old brave wackyness America had...is not now
'allowed'...is not tolerated much at all, but in ones and
twos maybe...if you mind your own business anyway...
Hell, if the old style Shakers started up again,
just-as-they-were-then, they'd end
up like 'Waco' I suppose...
Piss-gut batf yuppie-creeps in scratchyblacknylonflackvests,
puff-chesting around some
smokeing ruins...giving eachother the hi-five...and
talkingheads on the newz showing grainy video of how the
smoke trails off low on the horizon...
> Ah well.
> As to sensitive men: Kelly, I see them all around me.
I do not...or, one or two a year maybe...what's left of
> parents by and large try. The media and the school
> environment undermine gentleness tooth and nail.
In our culture, Women hate gentleness in Men even more than
they hate emotional strength...to posess both is to learn
what hell they can and will be, in their efforts to destroy
and subvert it.
Or, so far as I have seen...to generalize, anyway...
As for your paragraph there...why would an intelligent Child
or youth or adolescent, or
anyone, of any gender, willingly subject themselves to such?
Or, to such subjegation as it entails, and is about?
Where is their conscience?
> schools bestow special honors and privileges on the jocks.
> The magazines ditto. The films and TV shows addressed to
> boys/young men make a laundry hamper in a locker room in
> August seem appetizing! Not to mention the court system
> When A Jock Gets into Trouble..... Keep your kids out of
> school. They will be fine young men...
See also the film 'Crumb' for some erudite observations, and
recollections of the realities of hi-school...and Women...
We are 'in' a cult(ure) of 'death'...the more of it as is in
us, the less we will see it as 'so'...it is hypnotic...it is
a spell...it occulates the World, and occulates Life...it
occulates and dissplaces the ingenuous propensities and
fulfillments of the genger's respective genius and depths,
systemic suffering...then sells emollients made from the
usuperations or purulense harvested for topical
relief...the emolients create 'rashes' which then we are
supposed to become educated to find appealing...
These may be understood to be acquired tastes...
Mandates of the cirriculum...
"Between the forcepts...and the Stone"...
As Joni Mitchell hath observ'd...
We will do what we 'do'...
> Lili Krakowski
> Be of good courage
Thanks for the fun...the foray...