Lili Krakowski on tue 26 oct 04
Vince. You have called me alarmist (I am not), and, now, my tirade =
"ridiculous" More and more I think of you less as a serious colleague, =
and more as a younger brother. When people circle the adjectives it is =
to replace rather than foster conversation.
It also is unwise to try it on an old woman who keeps a commonplace =
book.
"By contrast with other countries,where some residue remained of =
earlier Christian teachings that poverty was a blessing that should =
inspire charity in the rich and meekness in the poor, poverty in the =
United States came to be regarded as the obvious consequence of sloth =
and sinfulness....The promise of America was not affluence but =
independence; not ease but a chance to work for oneself, to be =
self-supporting and to win esteem through hard and honest labor." =
Robert H Bremmer, From the Depths: The Discovery of Poverty in the =
United States, NY NYUP 1956, quoted by FF Piven in Regulating the Poor.
" Professors produce professionals. (In itself this is rather a new =
process; in the not far distant past apprenticeship was the common mode =
of access to many such callings.) And as the number of professionals =
has increased, so has the number of professions. More and more =
middle-class persons are attracted to the independence of judgment, =
esoteric knowledge, and relative immunity to outside criticism that =
characterizes professional occupations." Daniel Patrick Moynihan, =
Maximum Feasible Misunderstanding, Free Press, (Glencoe? NY?) 1969
"Few of us would claim that the social changes we forecast arise out of =
the blue....Even when they emerge first as ideas they have to be =
embodied in institutions; and to chart social changes is to chart the =
change in the characteristics of axial institutions." Daniel Bell, The =
Coming of Post Industrial Society, Basic Books, 1973
" The mastery of great things comes with doing of trifles; the little =
voyage is for the timid soul just as formidable as the big voyage for =
the great one. Voyages are accomplished inwardly, and the most hazardous =
ones, needless to say, are made without moving from the spot."=20
"Each one individually must revolt agains a way of life which is not his =
own."
Both quotes from Henry Miller, The Colossus of Maroussi New =
Directions, 1941 (reprint 1975, I think Pocket Books)
You assume I bash MFAs. Wrong. You assume I want to "grandstand on a =
worldwide public venue" I did not invent Clayart, though I'd be proud =
if I had, and I think I have as much right to voice my strong, albeit =
"ridiculous" opinions as others. =20
I do not care if people get MFAs, liposuction, tattoos, divorces, =
matching black horses, or whatever. I DO care, and IMMENSELY when =
these "accomplishments" are set up as qualifiers for recognition and =
respect in the craft world. There is nothing "completely ridiculous" =
about asking whether craftsmen who have been recognized as master =
artitst (Though Leonardo Da Vinci goofed up the Last Supper by careless =
experimental frescoing) should have been processed through academia. As =
to the "professional show" at the end of the MFA! To the best of my =
knowledge, it is part of the program, it is NOT a sending out slides to =
galleries who do not know one...
I dislike so-called "litmus tests" I dislike is the notion that =
certain jobs are closed to qualified people because they have not gone =
through the Academic Sausage Maker. FYI some of my best friends are =
PhDs, my sister is one and a professor at a great college at that, my =
late brother was one....But they chose professions for which a PhD was a =
requirement just as knowing how to swim is a requirement for a =
lifeguard.
What was being asked on Clayart was whether a 50ish woman long and =
sincerely in clay should get an MFA, and what were her chances of =
employment as a tacher thereafter. This was a two-pronged question: =
What would the MFA qua MFA do for her; and would a 50 year old with an =
MFA have a chance of getting a teaching job?
To the second question there were several answers ranging from "well, =
it's like this...." to " are you on hallucinogens, or what?"
My first post, Oct 19, "Making a Living, MFA, how old is old?" said, =
and I still agree, that one should think carefully before investing =
that much money in exactly what. I think it was Tony Clennell who =
voiced a similar view. Too many people d'un certain age go get an MFA =
to enjoy the companionship of the very young, the constant ferment of =
college campuses, the pseudo childhood of being a student to a =
teacher--and the learning .Were I more into psychobabble I would guess =
that it is part of the "empty nest" syndrome, replacing the scruffy =
teenagers who have left home, with a new set of scruffy teenagers. =20
Learning however can be acquired by different means. Had one $40,000 to =
spend one might buy a couple of acres ($5,000) build a small cabin =
($10,000) have a well dug ($3,000) and build a $20,000 kiln. With the =
$2000 balance one could attend several good woodkiln workshops. Or one =
could build a bigger better studio with some of that $40,000 and use the =
rest to enable one to cut back one one's day job and spend more time =
potting. And like that.
My second post Oct 20, "Tirade about men women, skirts, Life and MFA . =
Red Alert" addressed the fact that this emphasis on Academic Degrees =
penalizes women for motherhood. A man who chooses to be a father can =
go right on studying, getting a job and so on. A woman who gives up =
studying BUT RETURNS TO IT AT 45, is punished.
Had I energy and perfect 'druthers I would like to work a while with =
Bonnie, with Snail, with Mel. Also you, VInce. NOT because of your =
degrees, shows, honors, and all that--which I am sure you amply =
deserve--but because what I gather of your thinking interests me. =
Period.=20
Lili Krakowski, S.A.C.'53
Be of good courage
Sam or Mary Yancy on wed 27 oct 04
Lili - I love the quotes. I also agree with you completely. I know a woman who has went to college most of her life (she pays). She is evermore delightfull to talk to and she is so well versed in so many subjects. On the other hand, I never attended collage at all But was a engineering manager for a large airline for many years. Seems they needed some "common sense - seat of the pants" thinking plus all the degreed engineers. If I had to do it over methinks that I would have made time of collage - just to learn - better that then the "hard knocks" way perhaps. Sam in daly City
Lili Krakowski wrote:Vince. You have called me alarmist (I am not), and, now, my tirade "ridiculous" More and more I think of you less as a serious colleague, and more as a younger brother. When people circle the adjectives it is to replace rather than foster conversation.
It also is unwise to try it on an old woman who keeps a commonplace book.
"By contrast with other countries,where some residue remained of earlier Christian teachings that poverty was a blessing that should inspire charity in the rich and meekness in the poor, poverty in the United States came to be regarded as the obvious consequence of sloth and sinfulness....The promise of America was not affluence but independence; not ease but a chance to work for oneself, to be self-supporting and to win esteem through hard and honest labor." Robert H Bremmer, From the Depths: The Discovery of Poverty in the United States, NY NYUP 1956, quoted by FF Piven in Regulating the Poor.
" Professors produce professionals. (In itself this is rather a new process; in the not far distant past apprenticeship was the common mode of access to many such callings.) And as the number of professionals has increased, so has the number of professions. More and more middle-class persons are attracted to the independence of judgment, esoteric knowledge, and relative immunity to outside criticism that characterizes professional occupations." Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Maximum Feasible Misunderstanding, Free Press, (Glencoe? NY?) 1969
"Few of us would claim that the social changes we forecast arise out of the blue....Even when they emerge first as ideas they have to be embodied in institutions; and to chart social changes is to chart the change in the characteristics of axial institutions." Daniel Bell, The Coming of Post Industrial Society, Basic Books, 1973
" The mastery of great things comes with doing of trifles; the little voyage is for the timid soul just as formidable as the big voyage for the great one. Voyages are accomplished inwardly, and the most hazardous ones, needless to say, are made without moving from the spot."
"Each one individually must revolt agains a way of life which is not his own."
Both quotes from Henry Miller, The Colossus of Maroussi New Directions, 1941 (reprint 1975, I think Pocket Books)
You assume I bash MFAs. Wrong. You assume I want to "grandstand on a worldwide public venue" I did not invent Clayart, though I'd be proud if I had, and I think I have as much right to voice my strong, albeit "ridiculous" opinions as others.
I do not care if people get MFAs, liposuction, tattoos, divorces, matching black horses, or whatever. I DO care, and IMMENSELY when these "accomplishments" are set up as qualifiers for recognition and respect in the craft world. There is nothing "completely ridiculous" about asking whether craftsmen who have been recognized as master artitst (Though Leonardo Da Vinci goofed up the Last Supper by careless experimental frescoing) should have been processed through academia. As to the "professional show" at the end of the MFA! To the best of my knowledge, it is part of the program, it is NOT a sending out slides to galleries who do not know one...
I dislike so-called "litmus tests" I dislike is the notion that certain jobs are closed to qualified people because they have not gone through the Academic Sausage Maker. FYI some of my best friends are PhDs, my sister is one and a professor at a great college at that, my late brother was one....But they chose professions for which a PhD was a requirement just as knowing how to swim is a requirement for a lifeguard.
What was being asked on Clayart was whether a 50ish woman long and sincerely in clay should get an MFA, and what were her chances of employment as a tacher thereafter. This was a two-pronged question: What would the MFA qua MFA do for her; and would a 50 year old with an MFA have a chance of getting a teaching job?
To the second question there were several answers ranging from "well, it's like this...." to " are you on hallucinogens, or what?"
My first post, Oct 19, "Making a Living, MFA, how old is old?" said, and I still agree, that one should think carefully before investing that much money in exactly what. I think it was Tony Clennell who voiced a similar view. Too many people d'un certain age go get an MFA to enjoy the companionship of the very young, the constant ferment of college campuses, the pseudo childhood of being a student to a teacher--and the learning .Were I more into psychobabble I would guess that it is part of the "empty nest" syndrome, replacing the scruffy teenagers who have left home, with a new set of scruffy teenagers.
Learning however can be acquired by different means. Had one $40,000 to spend one might buy a couple of acres ($5,000) build a small cabin ($10,000) have a well dug ($3,000) and build a $20,000 kiln. With the $2000 balance one could attend several good woodkiln workshops. Or one could build a bigger better studio with some of that $40,000 and use the rest to enable one to cut back one one's day job and spend more time potting. And like that.
My second post Oct 20, "Tirade about men women, skirts, Life and MFA . Red Alert" addressed the fact that this emphasis on Academic Degrees penalizes women for motherhood. A man who chooses to be a father can go right on studying, getting a job and so on. A woman who gives up studying BUT RETURNS TO IT AT 45, is punished.
Had I energy and perfect 'druthers I would like to work a while with Bonnie, with Snail, with Mel. Also you, VInce. NOT because of your degrees, shows, honors, and all that--which I am sure you amply deserve--but because what I gather of your thinking interests me. Period.
Lili Krakowski, S.A.C.'53
Be of good courage
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Lee Love on thu 28 oct 04
Lili Krakowski wrote:
>Learning however can be acquired by different means. Had one $40,000 to spend one might buy a couple of acres ($5,000) build a small cabin ($10,000) have a well dug ($3,000) and build a $20,000 kiln. With the $2000 balance one could attend several good woodkiln workshops. Or one could build a bigger better studio with some of that $40,000 and use the rest to enable one to cut back one one's day job and spend more time potting. And like that.
>
>
Don't know if this $40,000.00 really compares with an MFA,
especially if you are talented, have good work, and a good portfolio,
and work as a graduate assistant. Actually, I would see an MFA
being more likely to allow a person to take the $40,000 and set up a
studio and a living, than it would guarantee you a tenured teaching
position at the university. It is almost the sum that we spent
getting set up in Japan our first year.
I look at the world and see
possibilities. I don't trust anybody who says, "There is only ONE
TRUE WAY." What I have always given as advice, is to find the work
and the teacher you admire, including their character and personality,
and then go and study with them, no matter where they are teaching.
It might mean an MFA. It might mean traveling to a far away country
to do an apprenticeship. It might mean doing workshops and occasional
trips to your mentor's workshop for enrichment. What and where isn't
so important as it is to immerse yourself in "the way" your teacher does
things.
>Had I energy and perfect 'druthers I would like to work a while with Bonnie, with Snail, with Mel. Also you, VInce. NOT because of your degrees, shows, honors, and all that--which I am sure you amply deserve--but because what I gather of your thinking interests me. Period.
>
>
Funny. No one on my short list seems to be "Internet
enabled." Though their children tend to be. ;-)
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://www.livejournal.com/users/togeika/ WEB LOG
http://public.fotki.com/togeika/ Photos!
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