Susan Nebeker on wed 27 oct 04
Quote:
"I don't care if people get MFAs, liposuction, tattoos, divorces, matching black horses, or whatever. I DO care and Immensely when these "accomplishments" are set up as qualifiers for recognition and respect in the craft world. There is nothing "completely ridiculous " about asking whether craftsmen who have been recognized as master artists should have been processed through academia."
And pertinantly: "Learning however, can be acquired by different means."
Lili, may I just say, "Amen, sister!"
I love your posts, your style and your philosophy.
In America, we are very fortunate to be able to find our own creative and determined paths to become potters.
In some countries, NOT jumping through certain hoops and submitting to being ground through the Academic Sausage Maker would very much prevent one from setting up a studio and selling their work.
Options, choices and personal determination are very good things-
Susan Nebeker
www.pollywogpottery@yahoo.com
---------------------------------
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Anne Webb on thu 28 oct 04
unfortunately when institutions are often run by administrators they only
see in terms of black and white. I have a friend who taught at an art
center up in canada. all the instructors had over 15-30 years of experience
and all made fine pots. they got a new director and he wouldnt hire anyone
without an arts degree..period. didnt matter how good a teacher they were or
how good their pots were. Raising the standard?
i've seen some particularly poorly made pots from MFA people and the BFA
clay students, around here, at least, dont know the least thing about firing
even an electric kiln. arts degree sometimes is not all its cracked up to
be. Depends largely on the school, the instructors and the particular
individual. ...Same as any degree/field, I suppose.
You cant even teach a workshop for the schoolboard around here if you dont
have a piece of paper .. wouldnt matter if you had been potting for a
hundred years...
>From: Susan Nebeker
>Reply-To: Clayart
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Lili's MFA Tirade
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:01:27 -0700
>
>Quote:
>
>"I don't care if people get MFAs, liposuction, tattoos, divorces, matching
>black horses, or whatever. I DO care and Immensely when these
>"accomplishments" are set up as qualifiers for recognition and respect in
>the craft world. There is nothing "completely ridiculous " about asking
>whether craftsmen who have been recognized as master artists should have
>been processed through academia."
>
>And pertinantly: "Learning however, can be acquired by different means."
>
> Lili, may I just say, "Amen, sister!"
> I love your posts, your style and your philosophy.
>
>In America, we are very fortunate to be able to find our own creative and
>determined paths to become potters.
>In some countries, NOT jumping through certain hoops and submitting to
>being ground through the Academic Sausage Maker would very much prevent one
>from setting up a studio and selling their work.
>
>Options, choices and personal determination are very good things-
>
>Susan Nebeker
>www.pollywogpottery@yahoo.com
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
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>Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
_________________________________________________________________
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Louis Katz on thu 28 oct 04
We had a great world class guitar instructor down here at the Island
University. After our last accreditation visit and the hassles it took
to justify non- masters or higher degreed instructors we had to let him
go. No-one, administration or faculty liked the situation, but we had
to live in the world we live in. If there is a place to focus an attack
it would be on SACS (Southern Association of Colleges and Schools, I
think) and the other number crunching accreditation organizations.
Somehow winning awards for quality education from academic centers,
being named the best regional university in Texas five of six years,
one of the best in the region (US News and World Report), having our
graduates accepted to all sorts of jobs and programs, having good
exhibitions, and just doing a good job is not evidence enough, you have
to be able to show paper for your professors or be willing to jump
through all sorts of hoops.
The big names, often do not have terminal degrees, don't need them
either. But, if your goal is to teach in a University you better get
one.
Louis
On Oct 28, 2004, at 11:46 AM, Anne Webb wrote:
> unfortunately when institutions are often run by administrators they
> only
> see in terms of black and white. I have a friend who taught at an art
> center up in canada. all the instructors had over 15-30 years of
> experience
> and all made fine pots. they got a new director and he wouldnt hire
> anyone
> without an arts degree..period. didnt matter how good a teacher they
> were or
> how good their pots were. Raising the standard?
>
> i've seen some particularly poorly made pots from MFA people and the
> BFA
> clay students, around here, at least, dont know the least thing about
> firing
> even an electric kiln. arts degree sometimes is not all its cracked
> up to
> be. Depends largely on the school, the instructors and the particular
> individual. ...Same as any degree/field, I suppose.
>
> You cant even teach a workshop for the schoolboard around here if you
> dont
> have a piece of paper .. wouldnt matter if you had been potting for a
> hundred years...
>
>
>> From: Susan Nebeker
>> Reply-To: Clayart
>> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>> Subject: Lili's MFA Tirade
>> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:01:27 -0700
>>
>> Quote:
>>
>> "I don't care if people get MFAs, liposuction, tattoos, divorces,
>> matching
>> black horses, or whatever. I DO care and Immensely when these
>> "accomplishments" are set up as qualifiers for recognition and
>> respect in
>> the craft world. There is nothing "completely ridiculous " about
>> asking
>> whether craftsmen who have been recognized as master artists should
>> have
>> been processed through academia."
>>
>> And pertinantly: "Learning however, can be acquired by different
>> means."
>>
>> Lili, may I just say, "Amen, sister!"
>> I love your posts, your style and your philosophy.
>>
>> In America, we are very fortunate to be able to find our own creative
>> and
>> determined paths to become potters.
>> In some countries, NOT jumping through certain hoops and submitting to
>> being ground through the Academic Sausage Maker would very much
>> prevent one
>> from setting up a studio and selling their work.
>>
>> Options, choices and personal determination are very good things-
>>
>> Susan Nebeker
>> www.pollywogpottery@yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>> ________
>> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>> melpots@pclink.com.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools
> and
> more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
http://falcon.tamucc.edu/~lkatz/
william schran on fri 29 oct 04
Louis wrote:> If there is a place to focus an attack
it would be on SACS (Southern Association of Colleges and Schools, I
think) and the other number crunching accreditation organizations.<
We all have standards for just about anything. We need some kind of
baseline for credibility/accreditation.
I teach at a community college that requires a Master's degree for
anyone teaching in a transfer program, in this case fine arts. In the
communication design (graphics) a Bachelor's degree is required as it
is a occupational/technical degree. There are some cross-over courses
shared between the two programs, we have to be careful who teaches
what.
Everybody knows this going in. No questions. That's the way it is.
Played the role of Acting Dean for a semester a couple years ago,
school was gearing up for re-accreditation with SACS. All adjunct
teachers files were audited. Have a music teacher in the division,
degrees from an Eastern Bloc country (pre break-up of the Soviet
Union), been teaching for us 20 years - nobody had EVER checked her
files - absolutely wonderful teacher . Did not have required degree.
School said to get rid of her. I refused, found way around the degree
issue. Was able to get professionals in the field to write letters of
"extraordinary qualifications". SACS said ok. She's still teaching
for us.
Bill
william schran on fri 29 oct 04
Lois wrote:> I would like to bring Suwanee Natewong
back for another mural carving class. It is going to be tough as she
has a high school diploma.<
Perhaps a non-credit continuing education class might work in this
instance. Folks that really want to learn about this subject would
take the class whether it's credit or non-credit.
Bill
Louis Katz on fri 29 oct 04
I think about the Leach potters, The MacKenzie/Minnesota/Mingeisota
School, and Hewitt and Johnson and see that the apprentice system can
bring life and vibrancy.. About the Minnesota school I thin the
combination Leach/ academia has produced a body of potters that could
not have happened in either the apprenticeship system or academia
except at the edge wetween the two. Painters are often taught about the
importance of edges. I think conceptual edges are often the most
fruitful.
Louis
On Oct 29, 2004, at 6:50 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
>> I have been thinking a lot about Hamada, the contemporary
>> potters around him, and the potters in the second and third
>> generations
>> after them. The work becomes more refined generation to
>> generation,
>> but looses its "Life." Maybe it is better to keep life in the
>> work.
>
> Lee -
> This is such an important statement. It shows how competition can
> outweigh
> creativity, and in some cases an obsessive approach to technique can
> completely subvert the personality of the individual artisan. I wish
> that
> artists/craftspeople could just be themselves, doing what they do out
> of
> love of and commitment to the medium, instead of some drive to succeed
> in a
> competitive world. If they did the former, honestly and intuitively,
> the
> latter would follow.
> - Vince
Louis Katz
Flamin Pipe Organ (needs Quicktime and high speed acess):
http://www.tamucc.edu/~lkatz/cs/
Lee Love on fri 29 oct 04
Anne Webb wrote:
> i've seen some particularly poorly made pots from MFA
Seriously, I think that you are more likely to see pots
that are "too finely made" out of MFA programs rather than ones that are
poorly made. There are many pots like this in the Nihon Koge (Japan
Craft) competition. As a friend was relating, some of the works that
are selected for this competition take an entire year or longer to
create.
I have been thinking a lot about Hamada, the contemporary
potters around him, and the potters in the second and third generations
after them. The work becomes more refined generation to generation,
but looses its "Life." Maybe it is better to keep life in the work.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://www.livejournal.com/users/togeika/ WEB LOG
http://public.fotki.com/togeika/ Photos!
Les on fri 29 oct 04
Wouldn't it be a greater world if we had more people that are willing to =
go that extra step for another person. We all need to look out for =
others as we do ourselves.
Wouldn't it be a greater world if we had more "William Schrans" in =
places like Ottawa and Washington, D.C.
Les Crimp in Nanoose Bay, B.C. (Vancouver Island, Canada) Where it wet =
and windy in this corner of the Great Northwest Rainforest..... =
condition "normal".
lcrimp@shaw.ca
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "william schran"
To:
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 5:54 AM
Subject: Re: Lili's MFA Tirade
> Louis wrote:> If there is a place to focus an attack
> it would be on SACS (Southern Association of Colleges and Schools, I
> think) and the other number crunching accreditation organizations.<
>=20
> We all have standards for just about anything. We need some kind of
> baseline for credibility/accreditation.
>=20
> I teach at a community college that requires a Master's degree for
> anyone teaching in a transfer program, in this case fine arts. In the
> communication design (graphics) a Bachelor's degree is required as it
> is a occupational/technical degree. There are some cross-over courses
> shared between the two programs, we have to be careful who teaches
> what.
>=20
> Everybody knows this going in. No questions. That's the way it is.
>=20
> Played the role of Acting Dean for a semester a couple years ago,
> school was gearing up for re-accreditation with SACS. All adjunct
> teachers files were audited. Have a music teacher in the division,
> degrees from an Eastern Bloc country (pre break-up of the Soviet
> Union), been teaching for us 20 years - nobody had EVER checked her
> files - absolutely wonderful teacher . Did not have required degree.
> School said to get rid of her. I refused, found way around the degree
> issue. Was able to get professionals in the field to write letters of
> "extraordinary qualifications". SACS said ok. She's still teaching
> for us.
>=20
> Bill
>=20
> =
_________________________________________________________________________=
_____
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>=20
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>=20
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at =
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Kathy Forer on fri 29 oct 04
On Oct 29, 2004, at 3:39 AM, Lee Love wrote:
> I have been thinking a lot about Hamada, the contemporary
> potters around him, and the potters in the second and third generations
> after them. The work becomes more refined generation to generation,
> but looses its "Life." Maybe it is better to keep life in the work.
But how? The only way is through innovation, possibly synthesis (or
analysis?). By the second or third gen, original motives are lost and
the work becomes re-creation or reproduction, inspired copies or dull
retread with no sense of the contemporary. We no longer live in the
medieval where variations on themes took centuries to develop. But it
doesn't mean work has to be "new," just fresh, vital.
Though that doesn't apply to certain kinds of learning which are often
best achieved through pure imitation.
Kathy
Louis Katz on fri 29 oct 04
Thanks Will,
I will add it to my list of similar schools willing to do this. Our
provost has made a categorical statement that because we had such a
poor showing of documentation in one college she is unwilling to do
this for any of the colleges. I would like to bring Suwanee Natewong
back for another mural carving class. It is going to be tough as she
has a high school diploma.
Louis
On Oct 29, 2004, at 7:54 AM, william schran wrote:
>
> Everybody knows this going in. No questions. That's the way it is.
>
> Played the role of Acting Dean for a semester a couple years ago,
> school was gearing up for re-accreditation with SACS. All adjunct
> teachers files were audited. Have a music teacher in the division,
> degrees from an Eastern Bloc country (pre break-up of the Soviet
> Union), been teaching for us 20 years - nobody had EVER checked her
> files - absolutely wonderful teacher .
Vince Pitelka on fri 29 oct 04
> I have been thinking a lot about Hamada, the contemporary
> potters around him, and the potters in the second and third generations
> after them. The work becomes more refined generation to generation,
> but looses its "Life." Maybe it is better to keep life in the work.
Lee -
This is such an important statement. It shows how competition can outweigh
creativity, and in some cases an obsessive approach to technique can
completely subvert the personality of the individual artisan. I wish that
artists/craftspeople could just be themselves, doing what they do out of
love of and commitment to the medium, instead of some drive to succeed in a
competitive world. If they did the former, honestly and intuitively, the
latter would follow.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
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