Louis Katz on sat 30 oct 04
Way back before i knew about respirators, about 1974 I found I was
"allergic" to a ball clay. It could have been non-allergic rhinitus.
Switched ball clays and the problem went away. It made my nose run. I
have had a student who could not use our stoneware but was able to use
porcelain and a 50/50 talc ball lowfire white clay. Don't know what was
causing their problem. You might be able to isolate what clay or types
of clay cause the problem. If you are going to keep working in clay it
would probably be smart to know,I am not a doctor but I doubt if it is
an allergy it is the iron.
Louis
On Oct 30, 2004, at 7:26 PM, Elly Dotseth wrote:
> Hey Mary! You could be allergic to some type of mold growing in that
> red
> clay. Try another type of red clay from a different source, and see if
> you
> still have the same problem. There are a lot of organics in clay. It
> isn't
> just dirt. --Elly
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Mary Allen
> Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 9:54 AM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: allergic reaction to red clay
>
> Has anyone had an allergic reaction to red clay?? I was wondering,
> because
> I DID!! I had always been ok when I was handbuilding, but when I used
> it on
> the wheel, boy was I in trouble!!! I didn't go into full anaphylaxis,
> but
> it was close! It really scared me. I haven't used it since. I
> talked to
> our supplier and all they said was different than our white clay we
> get is
> iron.... But, I think it must be something more complicated because
> I'm not
> allergic to iron....
>
> Thanks for any info or stories!!
>
> Hugs and Prayers,
> Mary in OH
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _____
> __
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
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>
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>
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> _______
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>
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>
>
Louis Katz
Flamin Pipe Organ (needs Quicktime and high speed acess):
http://www.tamucc.edu/~lkatz/cs/
Mary Allen on sat 30 oct 04
Has anyone had an allergic reaction to red clay?? I was wondering, =
because I DID!! I had always been ok when I was handbuilding, but when =
I used it on the wheel, boy was I in trouble!!! I didn't go into full =
anaphylaxis, but it was close! It really scared me. I haven't used it =
since. I talked to our supplier and all they said was different than =
our white clay we get is iron.... But, I think it must be something =
more complicated because I'm not allergic to iron....
Thanks for any info or stories!!
Hugs and Prayers,
Mary in OH
Elly Dotseth on sat 30 oct 04
Hey Mary! You could be allergic to some type of mold growing in that red
clay. Try another type of red clay from a different source, and see if you
still have the same problem. There are a lot of organics in clay. It isn't
just dirt. --Elly
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Mary Allen
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 9:54 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: allergic reaction to red clay
Has anyone had an allergic reaction to red clay?? I was wondering, because
I DID!! I had always been ok when I was handbuilding, but when I used it on
the wheel, boy was I in trouble!!! I didn't go into full anaphylaxis, but
it was close! It really scared me. I haven't used it since. I talked to
our supplier and all they said was different than our white clay we get is
iron.... But, I think it must be something more complicated because I'm not
allergic to iron....
Thanks for any info or stories!!
Hugs and Prayers,
Mary in OH
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
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melpots@pclink.com.
Kate Johnson on sun 31 oct 04
> Hey Mary! You could be allergic to some type of mold growing in that red
> clay. Try another type of red clay from a different source, and see if you
> still have the same problem. There are a lot of organics in clay. It isn't
> just dirt. --Elly
Oh, Elly! I can tell you've never had a near-anaphylactic shock reaction!
You don't want to even get CLOSE to anything that's that
life-threatening again!
Your suggestion is probably accurate, though--wouldn't be surprised if it
weren't mold or something, the new red earthenware (with iron) that I just
bought is blue-green with mold spots on the outside, showing that there is
SOMETHING besides clay and iron for it to be feeding on. Was there any
indication of anything like that, Mary? And yep, the difference in throwing
and hand-building could put a lot more particles into the air at a time...
Do be careful...stopping breathing is only one of the lovely side effects of
an allergic reaction like this...
Best--
Kate
Ivor and Olive Lewis on sun 31 oct 04
Dear Mary Allen,
A long time ago I had a student who had a severe reaction to a
Terracotta Clay, with her hands and fingers being afflicted by red
wheals as she was kneading. The only suggested cause was the presence
of an excess of Plate Oil used by the manufacturer to lubricate the
pug mill extrusion die.
If it has been used by the manufacturer, it might be that as you
throw, water is displacing this from your clay.
Another thought; if that clay had been in stored in a warm situation
it may have had time to grow a Fungus which is not compatible with
your own biochemistry.
Hope you have fully recovered and have experienced no repeat
performances.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
S. Australia.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Allen"
To:
Sent: Sunday, 31 October 2004 3:23
Subject: allergic reaction to red clay
Has anyone had an allergic reaction to red clay?? I was wondering,
because I DID!! I had always been ok when I was handbuilding, but
when I used it on the wheel, boy was I in trouble!!! I didn't go into
full anaphylaxis, but it was close! It really scared me. I haven't
used it since. I talked to our supplier and all they said was
different than our white clay we get is iron.... But, I think it must
be something more complicated because I'm not allergic to iron....
Thanks for any info or stories!!
Hugs and Prayers,
Mary in OH
______________________________________________________________________
________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
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melpots@pclink.com.
piedpotterhamelin@COMCAST.NET on sun 31 oct 04
When I taught 20 years ago, I purchased five types of cone 6 clays for the studio-a smooth stoneware, a coarse stoneware, a white stoneware, a red stoneware and a porcelain. One of my students could only use the white stoneware and porcelain as the other clays made her itch and created a rash. She said that she was allergic to alot of things.
Rick
--
"Many a wiser men than I hath
gone to pot." 1649
-------------- Original message --------------
> Dear Mary Allen,
> A long time ago I had a student who had a severe reaction to a
> Terracotta Clay, with her hands and fingers being afflicted by red
> wheals as she was kneading. The only suggested cause was the presence
> of an excess of Plate Oil used by the manufacturer to lubricate the
> pug mill extrusion die.
> If it has been used by the manufacturer, it might be that as you
> throw, water is displacing this from your clay.
> Another thought; if that clay had been in stored in a warm situation
> it may have had time to grow a Fungus which is not compatible with
> your own biochemistry.
> Hope you have fully recovered and have experienced no repeat
> performances.
> Best regards,
> Ivor Lewis.
> Redhill,
> S. Australia.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mary Allen"
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 31 October 2004 3:23
> Subject: allergic reaction to red clay
>
>
> Has anyone had an allergic reaction to red clay?? I was wondering,
> because I DID!! I had always been ok when I was handbuilding, but
> when I used it on the wheel, boy was I in trouble!!! I didn't go into
> full anaphylaxis, but it was close! It really scared me. I haven't
> used it since. I talked to our supplier and all they said was
> different than our white clay we get is iron.... But, I think it must
> be something more complicated because I'm not allergic to iron....
>
> Thanks for any info or stories!!
>
> Hugs and Prayers,
> Mary in OH
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
steve baker on mon 1 nov 04
Since your red clay is probably made with Cedar Heights Redart clay, and I am intimately familiar with that clay from working there many years, let me just elaborate a bit on what has already been written.
First, there is nothing exotic at all about Redart. 100% natural. Deposit is a sedimentary compacted siltstone/clay of about 300 million years plus. Simply dried and pulverized. Practically a rock in its natural state, and pretty much biologically and chemically inert. But compared to a lot of clays that don't, it has a pH approaching neutral, somewhere in the low sevens usually. This is probably the key to your problem, and those who have suggested a mold problem are probably right on the money. A stockpile of Redart clay will grow grass and weeds. A stockpile of practically any Ohio fireclay will not grow a single weed. Not a one. pH is much too low due to decomposing pyrites producing acid. That is why old coal/clay pits in Ohio look like a disaster site because the acid keeps anything from growing. Just like a mushroom is rather particular about its growth environment, I assume other spore type animals may be as well. But my guess is that your particluar clay body is
a very fertile environment for a specific mold you are allergic to. Whether you could change the pH with vinegar or another acid I don't know, but possibly. May be some other inert mold growth inhibitors that could be added.
Good luck.
Mary Allen wrote:
Has anyone had an allergic reaction to red clay?? I was wondering, because I DID!! I had always been ok when I was handbuilding, but when I used it on the wheel, boy was I in trouble!!! I didn't go into full anaphylaxis, but it was close! It really scared me. I haven't used it since. I talked to our supplier and all they said was different than our white clay we get is iron.... But, I think it must be something more complicated because I'm not allergic to iron....
Thanks for any info or stories!!
Hugs and Prayers,
Mary in OH
______________________________________________________________________________
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You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
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Ron Roy on mon 1 nov 04
One of my students - many years ago had an allegic reaction to a clay with
some iron in it - not from red Iron oxide - but an iron bearing clay used
in that clay - she had to wear surgical gloves. She did not have a problem
with porcelain.
I don't think this is the same situation but I seem to remember - that some
bacteria (and or molds) thrive on iron - anyone know anything about that?
RR
>Way back before i knew about respirators, about 1974 I found I was
>"allergic" to a ball clay. It could have been non-allergic rhinitus.
>Switched ball clays and the problem went away. It made my nose run. I
>have had a student who could not use our stoneware but was able to use
>porcelain and a 50/50 talc ball lowfire white clay. Don't know what was
>causing their problem. You might be able to isolate what clay or types
>of clay cause the problem. If you are going to keep working in clay it
>would probably be smart to know,I am not a doctor but I doubt if it is
>an allergy it is the iron.
>
>Louis
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
Jon Pacini on tue 2 nov 04
Greetings All-- Hi Ron---- You wrote--"I seem to remember - that some
bacteria (and or molds) thrive on iron - anyone know anything about that?"
I have observed a phenomenon where mold /fungus/bacteria grow on clays and
seem to leach the iron from the clay body and concentrate it. When the clay
is fired there are noticable dark areas where the growth was. The darker the
clay, the darker the stains seem to be.
Slab builders and pressers seem to have the most difficulty with this
situation. Throwing seems to blend it back in.
Have you noted this also??
Best regards,
Jon Pacini
Clay Manager
Laguna Clay Co
Ron Roy on wed 3 nov 04
Hi Jon,
No - I have not noticed it - in bodies with added iron and/or in bodies
made with clay with iron already in it?
The question remains - are there some bacteria that need iron to thrive?
I think that is what I once heard.
RR
>Greetings All-- Hi Ron---- You wrote--"I seem to remember - that some
>bacteria (and or molds) thrive on iron - anyone know anything about that?"
>
>I have observed a phenomenon where mold /fungus/bacteria grow on clays and
>seem to leach the iron from the clay body and concentrate it. When the clay
>is fired there are noticable dark areas where the growth was. The darker the
>clay, the darker the stains seem to be.
>
>Slab builders and pressers seem to have the most difficulty with this
>situation. Throwing seems to blend it back in.
>
>Have you noted this also??
>Best regards,
>Jon Pacini
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
Lee Love on wed 3 nov 04
Jon Pacini wrote:
>Slab builders and pressers seem to have the most difficulty with this
>situation. Throwing seems to blend it back in.
>
>
As will proper wedging. :-)
My iron clay is Mashiko Nami (common clay) 3 parts and Mashiko Aka
(red) 1 part, that I wedge together just before I throw it.
I recommend wedging two different colored clays like this for
beginners, to learn to wedge properly. Cut it. If there are no
spirals and the color is uniform, then you are done wedging.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://www.livejournal.com/users/togeika/ WEB LOG
http://public.fotki.com/togeika/ Photos!
Edouard Bastarache Inc. on wed 3 nov 04
Hello Ron,
parts of an answer to your question.
I-Iron eating bacteria
Novel bacteria could clean up heavy metal- and chlorine-contaminated =
environments | By Cathy Holding
Microorganisms can corrode metallic iron in an indirect process caused =
by chemicals released by sulfate-reducing bacteria. In a paper in the =
February 26 Nature, researchers have identified marine bacteria that =
directly attack the metal (Nature, 427:829-832, February 26, 2004).
Hang Dinh and colleagues at the Max Planck Institute for Marine =
Microbiology, Bremen, recovered organisms from marine sediment that =
could pave the way to a greater understanding of corrosive processes in =
the natural environment. Such information could be extremely valuable to =
many companies, including those in the petroleum industry.
Marine sediment was collected near Wilhelmshaven, in the North Sea, and =
bacteria isolated from the samples were cultured with iron granules for =
7 weeks. The reduction in the mass of iron was assessed by gravimetry, =
and bacteria from cultures in which the mass of iron decreased were =
assigned a phylogeny on the basis of 16S rRNA gene sequences.
"When we talk about metal corrosion, we're talking about several =
percentages of the gross national product, so this is not a small =
problem," said Judy D. Wall, a professor of biochemistry at the =
University of Missouri-Columbia, who was not involved in the study.
"There are other microbes out there that put electrons onto Fe3 and =
generate Fe2, and those are often referred to as breathing iron. In this =
case, it's more like eating iron," Wall told The Scientist. She =
explained that the newly identified organisms pull electrons from =
metallic iron and then deliver them to sulfate compounds. "So they're =
breathing sulfate or they're breathing protons, and producing hydrogen," =
she said.
The idea now is that these organisms obtain electrons directly from =
metallic iron in the form of Fe0 (iron zero). "That's the hypothesis to =
explain how these organisms grow relatively rapidly compared to =
classical well known species," Friedrich Widdel, coauthor of the paper, =
told The Scientist. "The hypothesis concerning hydrogen scavenging was =
not fully consistent, and so our idea was that there might be something =
[else] behind anaerobic corrosion."
Widdel, professor and managing director of the Max Planck Institute for =
Marine Microbiology, said that the sulfate-reducing bacteria commonly =
tested in corrosion laboratories were from culture collections that had =
been isolated with organics, and may not necessarily be the corroding =
species in situ. "The idea was to start from scratch, to start with =
sediment with iron in it to see what would develop," Widdel said.
Derek Lovley, professor and head of the Department of Microbiology, =
University of Massachusetts, told The Scientist, "Corrosion has been =
studied a lot with different microorganisms, but not necessarily ones =
that were specifically recovered from a corroding surface."
Widdel said he does not think these bacteria have a role in bioremedial =
applications. But Lovley, who was not involved in the study, said he =
believes these organisms may explain the clean-up of chlorinated =
solvents. "You can add metallic iron to the contaminating environment as =
a source of electrons," he said. "It's apparent now from this study... =
that microorganisms could be degrading some contaminants [by] getting =
electrons from some of that iron metal." He also said that it might now =
be possible to use iron as the electron source to promote uranium =
reduction in contaminated ground water.
Widdel said that he thinks that metallic iron is a very recent substrate =
for bacteria on the evolutionary scale. Since it has been introduced by =
humans, he said he believes that time is too short for bacteria to have =
evolved a metabolic system to use it, and so suggests that they must =
have got electrons from somewhere else before iron was introduced into =
the environment. "It's a little bit of a wide speculation," he said, =
"but why not attach to other bacteria which had problems getting rid of =
electrons because they use organics?"
Widdel said that the paper should not be regarded as providing the =
complete answer to the corrosion story. "The whole group of =
sulfur-producing bacteria is extremely diverse, and if in the future we =
look at other places, other species may be found that act in a similar =
manner," he said.
"The message is the classical Desulfovibrios, which we get from culture =
collections, are certainly not the answer to corrosion," Widdel said.
II-UMass Microbiologist Focuses on Iron-Eating Bacteria
Findings have implications on beginning of life on Earth
AMHERST, Mass. - University of Massachusetts microbiologist Derek Lovley =
has made a discovery which opens a window to understanding how life =
began on Earth. Lovley has determined that certain kinds of =
microorganisms, which live several miles below ground, can use iron to =
metabolize their food. The findings are reported in the Sept. 3 issue of =
the journal Nature, and will be featured in an upcoming segment of the =
television show "Discover Magazine," on the Discovery Channel.=20
Lovley, head of the microbiology department, studies unusual forms of =
anaerobic microorganisms: in other words, bacteria that transform their =
food into energy without using oxygen. "The research helps us to =
understand life on Earth a little bit better," Lovley said, "but it also =
has a practical side." His previous research has demonstrated that =
microorganisms that can grow on iron can be used in treating =
contaminated groundwater. The microorganisms use petroleum contaminants, =
such as benzene, as food, and literally eat away at contamination. These =
organisms can also remove toxic metals such as uranium and chromium from =
contaminated waters. His most recent findings focus on =
"hyperthermophiles": literally, those who love hot temperatures. =
Hyperthermophiles are the organisms most closely related to early forms =
of life, from which modern bacteria, plants, and animals have descended, =
Lovley said.
It was previously believed that some of the first microorganisms used =
sulfur to grow. But geologists noted that sulfur did not exist in the =
proper form on early Earth. There was, however, abundant iron, so Lovley =
set about determining whether iron could serve as an energy source for =
these early bacteria. "You can't go back three billion years, but you =
can study these hyperthermophiles, which are the modern organisms most =
closely related to early life," said Lovley.=20
Studying seven species of hyperthermophiles, he determined that every =
single one could use iron to metabolize its food. This lends weight to =
the theory that iron was essential for the growth of early life on =
Earth, according to Lovley. One type of hyperthermophile in particular, =
thermotoga, used iron in a very central way, and sulfur in a very =
trivial way, suggesting that iron was more central to the metabolism of =
early organisms than sulfur. All of the hyperthermophiles converted iron =
oxide to the magnetic mineral, magnetite, during their growth on iron. =
This is significant because geologists have found large accumulations of =
magnetite on early Earth. Furthermore, magnetite found deep below the =
Earth's surface and in a Martian meteorite has been thought to provide =
evidence for the possibility of life existing in these extreme =
environments.
Later,
"Ils sont fous ces quebecois"
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/Welcome.html
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
http://www.digitalfire.com/education/toxicity/
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