Linda Ferzoco on sun 28 nov 04
I sent the following to the World Wide Words website owner and got the reply
posted below.
Also, someone sent me a private message about the current use of saggars and
the job title. I forwarded his comments to WWW and they will appear in next
week's newsletter. I deleted the email, so if you want credit for your
comment, please email me or Mr. Quinion (vide infra/see below).
Cheers,
Linda
> I got this comment from Richard Mahaffey
>
> "Thanks for the interesting post. The Japanese word for Saggar is
Saiaa
> (Sigh ah) don't know which came first the Japanese word (probably
> from China) or the English."
>
> Do you have any way to determine whether our word derived from
theirs
> or vice versa?
It seems extremely unlikely that the source is the Japanese word, as
the word is first recorded in the seventeenth century, so that the
technology it refers to is almost certainly European (there is some
suggestion the word might be German, because Germans were employed in
the Staffordshire potteries at this period).
--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail:
Web:
Kate Johnson on sun 28 nov 04
Hi Linda and list...does anyone have access to the OED (Oxford English
Dictionary)? It might have the first recorded use of the word in English...
>
> It seems extremely unlikely that the source is the Japanese word, as
> the word is first recorded in the seventeenth century, so that the
> technology it refers to is almost certainly European (there is some
> suggestion the word might be German, because Germans were employed in
> the Staffordshire potteries at this period).
Best--
Kate
piedpotterhamelin@COMCAST.NET on mon 29 nov 04
My 1902 Encyclopedia of Ceramics states " Saggers or Seggers,.....Piccolpassi, writing in 1548, speaks of them being used in Italy. In Japan, their use was accidently discovered in 1770 by Kiherji, a potter of Arita".
Two other sources state Saggar is derived from a corruption of 'safeguard' but neither list the originating language.
Rick
--
"Many a wiser men than I hath
gone to pot." 1649
-------------- Original message --------------
> Hi Linda and list...does anyone have access to the OED (Oxford English
> Dictionary)? It might have the first recorded use of the word in English...
> >
> > It seems extremely unlikely that the source is the Japanese word, as
> > the word is first recorded in the seventeenth century, so that the
> > technology it refers to is almost certainly European (there is some
> > suggestion the word might be German, because Germans were employed in
> > the Staffordshire potteries at this period).
>
>
> Best--
> Kate
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
annsemple on mon 29 nov 04
Kate
I hauled out my Oxford English Dictionary and this is the result:
saggar, noun. Case of baked fireproof clay enclosing pottery while it is =
baked. (probably contraction of safeguard)
So there's another possibility.
Ann
www.annsemple.com
www.clayfootcrockery.com
Louis Katz on mon 29 nov 04
Saggar: 1. Old horse. 2. a person who's chin has sired a child. 3. a
kiln shelf that has gotten old and curved.
Blunger: 1. plumbers friend, plastered. A drink made from equal parts
Ouzo, nopalito juice, and Creme de Menthe, served in a copper mug. :) A
berson who goes blungee jumbing.
On Nov 29, 2004, at 10:23 AM, annsemple wrote:
> Kate
>
> I hauled out my Oxford English Dictionary and this is the result:
>
> saggar, noun. Case of baked fireproof clay enclosing pottery while it
> is baked. (probably contraction of safeguard)
>
> So there's another possibility.
>
> Ann
> www.annsemple.com
> www.clayfootcrockery.com
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
Louis Katz
Question Questioning
Marcia Selsor on tue 30 nov 04
Could it come from a Spanish derivative "sacar" to put in a container,
a sack, etc?
On Nov 29, 2004, at 8:34 PM, Louis Katz wrote:
> Saggar: 1. Old horse. 2. a person who's chin has sired a child. 3. a
> kiln shelf that has gotten old and curved.
> Blunger: 1. plumbers friend, plastered. A drink made from equal parts
> Ouzo, nopalito juice, and Creme de Menthe, served in a copper mug. :) A
> berson who goes blungee jumbing.
>
>
>
>> Kate
>>
>> I hauled out my Oxford English Dictionary and this is the result:
>>
>> saggar, noun. Case of baked fireproof clay enclosing pottery while it
>> is baked. (probably contraction of safeguard)
>>
>> So there's another possibility.
>>
>> Ann
>> www.annsemple.com
>> www.clayfootcrockery.com
Edwards on tue 30 nov 04
Hello Rick: I have Piccolpassi's book--- in Italian the term he uses
is case. The Albert and Vick Museum that did an Englist translation
their spelling is sagger, circa 1934 . If anyone has a chance to read
his three books of the potter's art, written in 1548, DON'T PASS IT UP.
It's a great read.
~Craig
________________
Craig Edwards, New London MN
e-mail craigedwards@charter.net
http://photobucket.com/albums/v11/credwards/
piedpotterhamelin@comcast.net wrote:
>My 1902 Encyclopedia of Ceramics states " Saggers or Seggers,.....Piccolpassi, writing in 1548, speaks of them being used in Italy. In Japan, their use was accidently discovered in 1770 by Kiherji, a potter of Arita".
>Two other sources state Saggar is derived from a corruption of 'safeguard' but neither list the originating language.
>Rick
>
>--
>"Many a wiser men than I hath
>gone to pot." 1649
>
>-------------- Original message --------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
daniel on tue 30 nov 04
Hi Kate, All,
Pulled out the OED. The citation lists a few interesting things but the
thing's too long to type fully. I'll hit you with the first par, and some
highlights.
sagger, [gives various forms ...shrager, segur, saggar, seggar, sagger
(saggard) , segger, segre. Notes that it is probably a contraction of
safeguard DS]
Now the first par ...
"This explanation is supported by the existence of the form SEGGARD for
safeguard as an article of dress. The earliest recorded form, shrager (quot.
1686 below), seems to be a corruption due to etymological association with
G. shragen to prop up; perhaps it may have been invented by German workmen
employed in the Staffordshire potteries."
The 1686 quote is :
"[1686 PLOT staffordsh iii 123 If they be leaded hollowwares, they do not
expose them to the naked fire, but put them in shragers, that is, in coarse
metall'd pots, made of marle (not clay)]"
They also mention that more widely the definition covers iron casings ,
wrought or cast iron protecting objects while in a furnace, as in the
annealing of iron castings.
I have the compact edition and hope therefore that I have copied accurately
via the magnifying glass.
> Hi Linda and list...does anyone have access to the OED (Oxford English
> Dictionary)? It might have the first recorded use of the word in
> English...
Thanx
D
Belmont, California, USA
(ex terra australis)
Linda Ferzoco on wed 1 dec 04
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:50:14 -0700, Marcia Selsor wrote:
>Could it come from a Spanish derivative "sacar" to put in a container,
>a sack, etc?
>
Marcia, I love that idea and I've forwarded your post to the owner of Worldwidewords. Now, who
knows the history of Spanish potters in Great Britain?
Linda
Mishy Lowe on thu 2 dec 04
Francoise Melville might have information on the
history of Spanish potters in Britain. She wrote some
articles about pottery in Spain in CM.
Are you out there Francoise? I'll find her email addy
if you'd like it Linda.
Mishy
--- Linda Ferzoco wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:50:14 -0700, Marcia Selsor
> wrote:
>
> >Could it come from a Spanish derivative "sacar" to
> put in a container,
> >a sack, etc?
> >
>
> Marcia, I love that idea and I've forwarded your
> post to the owner of Worldwidewords. Now, who
> knows the history of Spanish potters in Great
> Britain?
>
> Linda
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
=====
Mishy
http://www.desertdragonpottery.com
Desert Dragon Pottery 602-690-6956
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Marcia Selsor on thu 2 dec 04
They use saggars in Spain too.
Marcia
On Dec 1, 2004, at 10:47 AM, Linda Ferzoco wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:50:14 -0700, Marcia Selsor
> wrote:
>
>> Could it come from a Spanish derivative "sacar" to put in a
>> container,
>> a sack, etc?
>>
>
> Marcia, I love that idea and I've forwarded your post to the owner of
> Worldwidewords. Now, who
> knows the history of Spanish potters in Great Britain?
>
> Linda
mailtoandrew@FSMAIL.NET on fri 3 dec 04
Hello all,
If the words saggar and blunger did originate in the Potteries area of
England the suggestion of being derived from Yiddish seems unlikely as
that area has never had any significant Jewish population, and very few
Yiddish words have been borrowed by UK English. Similarly, and apart from
common Latin sources, not many words have been taken from Spanish, and
there is little, if any, history of Spanish potters in the country.
As has previously been posted the OED suggests a contraction of Safeguard
and a combination of plunge and blend. The former does seem plausible
given the peculiar dialect of the Potteries which uses different
pronunciations to what may be called Standard English. It has similarities
to medieval English and Anglo-Saxon, and according to some linguists its
grammar is more complex than the modern form. In common with other
Midland, and Northern, dialects pronunciation is supposedly closer to that
used nationally before 1600s than currently used in London and the South
East.
The most commonly quoted example of Potteries dialect is =91Cost kick a bow
agen' a woe, y'ed it back an bost it?' ... which translates as 'Can you
kick a ball against a wall, head it back and burst it?
Of course there are many other source languages of the words used in
ceramics such as:
Feldspar: feldtspat in Swedish, and similar in German, meaning field
stone
Montmorillonite: Montmorillon, NW of Limoges in France
Cristobalite: Cerro San Cristobal, Mexico
Pottery: Old French poterie
Ceramic: Greek keramikos
Trying to remember back quite a few years a few other ceramic terms from
the Potteries, which might be of interest and perhaps could be included in
the etymological debate include:
Jigger: Shaping method for plates. The origin is perhaps just a
description of the movement or from jig, as in machinery. Similar words
from Romany for door and an African language for insect are possibly
coincidental
Jolley: Shaping method for cups, mugs etc. An explanation that its
derived from the happy attitude, jolly, of the makers seems to me a little
fanciful. There is a pub in the city called the Jolly Potter, whether this
has the same origin is is just a back formation is not known
Fettling: Removing minor imperfections on unfired ware
Fussing: Process of reducing moisture content of forms of clay body into
a condition suitable for shaping by turning on a lathe
House: As in sliphouse, dipping house. Presumably simply from the
buildings dedicated to these tasks
Shawdruck: Tip of fired scrap, frequently behind the factory
Slops: Overall / coverall
Towing: Using tow, flax fibres, to remove minor imperfections and
improve surface on biscuit ware
Truck: Payment of workers in finished goods rather than money
Many have probably been forgotten, a trend that unfortunately is likely to
continue with the increasing homogenisation of language.
Regards,
Andrew
F. Chapman Baudelot on fri 3 dec 04
Hi Mishy et al,
Yes, I'm still out here and do occasionally rapidly scroll down through my
Clayart digest, but for the past year I have not been making any pots for
various personal reasons.
Unfortunately, as far as I know, there is no history of early Spanish
potters working in Spain. As for the etymology of the word 'saggar', I
do not see why it should have anything to do with the Spanish verb 'sacar'
which means 'to take out'. True, the word for sack is 'saco' in Spanish
and 'sac' in French, but that does not seem relevant.
Luv to all out there who remember me,
Francoise in Spain
mailtoandrew@FSMAIL.NET on mon 6 dec 04
Hello all,
May be a further negative to the word saggar being derived from Spanish or
Italian is that the words in those respective languages are caselle and
casetas.
Regards,
Andrew
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