wjskw@BELLSOUTH.NET on mon 29 nov 04
It goes without saying that one should never fire an electric kiln
without being in constant attendance. How many times has this been
preached?? Hundreds, thousands? And you're still not listening?
But people do. Set the sitter, walk away "oh, it will be fine"
No... it won't.
We've all seen the results, like the recently mentioned meltdown,
glazes (pots!!) that run to the bottom of the kiln and harden there,
I could go on but I won't.
Perhaps it's time for (electric) kiln manufacturers to protect us
from ourselves, and install an "idiot button." A button on the side
of the kiln that has to be pressed every 15 minutes or so in order
for the kiln to continue to fire...even with a controller.
No? Don't like that idea?
Then take a book and get a comfortable chair, and sit down by the
kiln and read. And watch the kiln. It takes very little effort
and if you're reading pottery books, you might even learn something.
Or move your wheel within viewing distance, and throw while you
fire, or handbuild. Just BE there!
No time to watch the kiln you say? Too busy doing other important
things that your life is full of? Would you leave a pot burning on
the stove? A turkey in the oven "oh it will be fine"?
If you haven't time to watch the kiln, be there while it's firing
start to finish, then you haven't the time to "do" pottery. =20
Find another hobby. One that won't eventually burn your house down
and ruin your life, the lives of your family and neighbors, kill
your pets.
Flames cheerfully welcomed. But not from _MY_ pot toaster, thank
you.
Wayne Seidl
"Never sing to a pig. It accomplishes naught, and annoys the pig."=20
John Hesselberth on mon 29 nov 04
>
Hi Everyone,
Wayne's message, part of which I have reproduced below, is one of the
most important and bluntly stated that has appeared on Clayart in some
time. Please heed it. If you don't have time to monitor your kiln while
it is firing, find another hobby--and I use the word hobby
purposefully. No professional potter, in my opinion, would leave an
unmonitored kiln. Too many things can go wrong.
Regards,
John
>
> Or move your wheel within viewing distance, and throw while you
> fire, or handbuild. Just BE there!
>
> No time to watch the kiln you say? Too busy doing other important
> things that your life is full of? Would you leave a pot burning on
> the stove? A turkey in the oven "oh it will be fine"?
>
> If you haven't time to watch the kiln, be there while it's firing
> start to finish, then you haven't the time to "do" pottery.
>
> Find another hobby. One that won't eventually burn your house down
> and ruin your life, the lives of your family and neighbors, kill
> your pets.
piedpotterhamelin@COMCAST.NET on mon 29 nov 04
Maybe the best thing to do is to buy a digital pyrometer that has an alarm feature for a preset temp. I have seen these made by a number of manufacturers but never offered in the pottery supply catalogs. They are costly, but so is a lost load or a fire.
Rick
--
"Many a wiser men than I hath
gone to pot." 1649
-------------- Original message --------------
> It goes without saying that one should never fire an electric kiln
> without being in constant attendance. How many times has this been
> preached?? Hundreds, thousands? And you're still not listening?
>
> But people do. Set the sitter, walk away "oh, it will be fine"
>
> No... it won't.
>
> We've all seen the results, like the recently mentioned meltdown,
> glazes (pots!!) that run to the bottom of the kiln and harden there,
> I could go on but I won't.
>
> Perhaps it's time for (electric) kiln manufacturers to protect us
> from ourselves, and install an "idiot button." A button on the side
> of the kiln that has to be pressed every 15 minutes or so in order
> for the kiln to continue to fire...even with a controller.
>
> No? Don't like that idea?
>
> Then take a book and get a comfortable chair, and sit down by the
> kiln and read. And watch the kiln. It takes very little effort
> and if you're reading pottery books, you might even learn something.
>
> Or move your wheel within viewing distance, and throw while you
> fire, or handbuild. Just BE there!
>
> No time to watch the kiln you say? Too busy doing other important
> things that your life is full of? Would you leave a pot burning on
> the stove? A turkey in the oven "oh it will be fine"?
>
> If you haven't time to watch the kiln, be there while it's firing
> start to finish, then you haven't the time to "do" pottery.
>
> Find another hobby. One that won't eventually burn your house down
> and ruin your life, the lives of your family and neighbors, kill
> your pets.
>
> Flames cheerfully welcomed. But not from _MY_ pot toaster, thank
> you.
>
> Wayne Seidl
>
>
>
> "Never sing to a pig. It accomplishes naught, and annoys the pig."
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
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> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Jim Pendley on mon 29 nov 04
My automatic dishwasher's instruction manual has
( in big print)" Never Run Dishwasher Unattended as
Flooding may occur." But I do and I bet that many on
the list do so also. Turn on the dishwater and go to
work, etc. Disaster is the best teacher :)
So now everyone has been warned!!!
If you can't spare the time to watch it wash,
wash them by hand :)
Jim Pendley
--- piedpotterhamelin@COMCAST.NET wrote:
> Maybe the best thing to do is to buy a digital
> pyrometer that has an alarm feature for a preset
> temp. I have seen these made by a number of
> manufacturers but never offered in the pottery
> supply catalogs. They are costly, but so is a lost
> load or a fire.
> Rick
>
Kim Lindaberry on tue 30 nov 04
Surely I'm not the only one here that trusts that my gas hot water
heater will function without me spending 24 hours a day in the basement
staring at it. Now that winter has arrived in my area my gas furnace
automatically turns itself on and off. Must I stay up all night long to
be sure it turns off when the house gets warm enough? When I need to go
to work to pay the gas bill am I supposed to turn my furnace and my
water heater before I leave the house? . . .
On Nov 29, 2004, at 7:26 AM, wjskw@BELLSOUTH.NET wrote:
> No time to watch the kiln you say? Too busy doing other important
> things that your life is full of? Would you leave a pot burning on
> the stove? A turkey in the oven "oh it will be fine"?
>
sincultura13 on tue 30 nov 04
I have to admit that I had a bit of an emotional reaction to tone of
this post when I first read it... HAHA! To me pottery is not a hobby
but I'm not a full time potter either... I never got the mail
invitation to this big craft fair only to find out a week and a half
ago I was on the list. I'm way behind schedule, thus have been
firing my 18"x17" kiln every day for the last four days and have
five more straight days of the same ahead of me... cat napping like
a newborn's parent.
Usually though, not only I don't mind firing but look forward to
it... I'm a "stay at home when ever possible" type of pal. Plus now
I can say: "Sorry honey, I can't go to eat with your family
saturday... I have kiln full to fire..." hehe...
Sincultura
"If you haven't time to watch the kiln, be there while it's firing
> start to finish, then you haven't the time to "do" pottery.
>
> Find another hobby. One that won't eventually burn your house down
> and ruin your life, the lives of your family and neighbors, kill
> your pets."
Gail Phillips on wed 1 dec 04
Kim -
You are comparing appliances of different ratings here, not to mention
different fuel sources, I'm afraid. There are thermostats on these types of
gas heaters that are designed to turn the appliance off if it gets too hot,
but failing that, the thermocouple with self-destruct and turn off the
pilot. Electric kilns aren't like that. They are rated for higher
temperatures, so they are more likely to be dangerous in this way. Electric
furnaces would have an element burn out, and not allow the higher
temperatures, either. Of course, there are homes that have burned due to a
furnace or hot-water heater mishap, but I bet your insurance agent would be
more cooperative about that than an unattended kiln.
- Gail
Kim wrote:
Surely I'm not the only one here that trusts that my gas hot water
heater will function without me spending 24 hours a day in the basement
staring at it. Now that winter has arrived in my area my gas furnace
automatically turns itself on and off. Must I stay up all night long to
be sure it turns off when the house gets warm enough? When I need to go
to work to pay the gas bill am I supposed to turn my furnace and my
water heater before I leave the house? . . .
Lori Leary on thu 2 dec 04
Kim,
I am feeling a little cranky here.
Cones may stick, the kiln-sitter may malfunction, or the timer may be
broken.
The point is: you never know.
Why take such risks while operating your kiln?
It is NOT okay to leave a kiln unmonitored while firing... and it is NOT
okay to suggest that this is an appropriate practice to others
(especially newbies).
Lori L.
Kim Lindaberry wrote:
> Gail,
>
> Perhaps you missed seeing that in the original RANT he said, "Would you
> leave a pot burning on the stove? A turkey in the oven "oh it will be
> fine"?" I don't think I missed the point of what his message was all
> about. Its just frankly I don't see the connection between leaving a
> pot on an unattended stove or turkey in an unattended oven. A pot on a
> stove does not have any form of auto shut-off device and neither does
> an oven (or at least most of them don't) If he wants to compare apples
> and oranges I feel my comparison is just as valid of a view point. I
> firmly believe that should a kiln over fire, if it has been properly
> installed, located and wired it will not start a fire. Think about it.
> Its firebricks usually encased inside of stainless steel. Just what is
> going to burn there? A properly installed kiln will be located in such
> a manner that no combustibles are close enough to catch fire. I imagine
> most "kiln fires" occur because some bonehead has leaned some kind of
> combustible up against it, or on top of it.
>
> An electric kiln is just an appliance that utilizes a heat source. And
> it was not a coincidence that I chose to use a water heater and a
> furnace in my example. Both are appliances that utilize heat sources
> and have features that control and regulate them. If appliances are
> properly installed one should be able to have some form of confidence
> that they will perform in a fairly reliable manner. That is how we can
> go to sleep at night when our furnaces are running on a cold winters
> night. Appliances should perform at least reliably enough that one can
> leave the kiln alone for an hour or two to go have something to eat, or
> take the dog for a walk, or do whatever. I don't think you have to be
> sitting within visible sight of the kiln during the entire firing
> cycle, AND I'll bet not a single person on this forum does.
>
> I would really like to see some kind of statistics as to how many kilns
> (that have been properly installed) have started fires? It would be
> interesting to know how many "kiln fires" were caused by people not
> maintaining a proper safe zone around a kiln ( no combustibles within a
> minimum or 18 " in many cases)
>
> BTW, if for some reason there is a kiln mishap like shelves tipping
> over, other than turning off the kiln what will be the benefit of being
> there at the exact moment it happens? More than likely if it were to
> happen you aren't going to be opening up the kiln to remove the pots
> while they are glowing red. The main damage will have been done and all
> you can do is turn it off and wait for it to cool down.
william schran on thu 2 dec 04
Kim wrote:>Surely I'm not the only one here that trusts that my gas hot water
heater will function without me spending 24 hours a day in the basement
staring at it. Now that winter has arrived in my area my gas furnace
automatically turns itself on and off. Must I stay up all night long to
be sure it turns off when the house gets warm enough? When I need to go
to work to pay the gas bill am I supposed to turn my furnace and my
water heater before I leave the house? . . .<
Gas, or indeed electric , furnaces and water heaters are made,
tested and certified as continuous use devices.
Kilns, gas or electric, are intermittent devices, not intended for
continuous use. Thus when in use, must be attended to.
Water heaters and furnaces generally don't run continuously for hours
at a time and certainly don't reach temperatures that kilns do.
Bill
Kim Lindaberry on thu 2 dec 04
Gail,
Perhaps you missed seeing that in the original RANT he said, "Would you
leave a pot burning on the stove? A turkey in the oven "oh it will be
fine"?" I don't think I missed the point of what his message was all
about. Its just frankly I don't see the connection between leaving a
pot on an unattended stove or turkey in an unattended oven. A pot on a
stove does not have any form of auto shut-off device and neither does
an oven (or at least most of them don't) If he wants to compare apples
and oranges I feel my comparison is just as valid of a view point. I
firmly believe that should a kiln over fire, if it has been properly
installed, located and wired it will not start a fire. Think about it.
Its firebricks usually encased inside of stainless steel. Just what is
going to burn there? A properly installed kiln will be located in such
a manner that no combustibles are close enough to catch fire. I imagine
most "kiln fires" occur because some bonehead has leaned some kind of
combustible up against it, or on top of it.
An electric kiln is just an appliance that utilizes a heat source. And
it was not a coincidence that I chose to use a water heater and a
furnace in my example. Both are appliances that utilize heat sources
and have features that control and regulate them. If appliances are
properly installed one should be able to have some form of confidence
that they will perform in a fairly reliable manner. That is how we can
go to sleep at night when our furnaces are running on a cold winters
night. Appliances should perform at least reliably enough that one can
leave the kiln alone for an hour or two to go have something to eat, or
take the dog for a walk, or do whatever. I don't think you have to be
sitting within visible sight of the kiln during the entire firing
cycle, AND I'll bet not a single person on this forum does.
I would really like to see some kind of statistics as to how many kilns
(that have been properly installed) have started fires? It would be
interesting to know how many "kiln fires" were caused by people not
maintaining a proper safe zone around a kiln ( no combustibles within a
minimum or 18 " in many cases)
BTW, if for some reason there is a kiln mishap like shelves tipping
over, other than turning off the kiln what will be the benefit of being
there at the exact moment it happens? More than likely if it were to
happen you aren't going to be opening up the kiln to remove the pots
while they are glowing red. The main damage will have been done and all
you can do is turn it off and wait for it to cool down.
Kim
On Dec 1, 2004, at 12:04 PM, Gail Phillips wrote:
> Kim -
>
> You are comparing appliances of different ratings here, not to mention
> different fuel sources, I'm afraid. There are thermostats on these
> types of
> gas heaters that are designed to turn the appliance off if it gets too
> hot,
> but failing that, the thermocouple with self-destruct and turn off the
> pilot. Electric kilns aren't like that. They are rated for higher
> temperatures, so they are more likely to be dangerous in this way.
> Electric
> furnaces would have an element burn out, and not allow the higher
> temperatures, either. Of course, there are homes that have burned due
> to a
> furnace or hot-water heater mishap, but I bet your insurance agent
> would be
> more cooperative about that than an unattended kiln.
>
> - Gail
Janet Kaiser on fri 3 dec 04
>They are costly, but so is a lost load or a fire.<
*** said Rick ***
It is also worth mentioning, that an insurance policy becomes
null and void as soon as you leave any equipment unattended even
for a short time. So not only can you loose the contents of a
kiln (pots and furniture), but the kiln, your studio and/or your
home and even a whole street of homes and adjoining property if
you are very unlucky... Not to mention the lives of animals
(including people) who were overcome by smoke and/or were not
able to escape. I hesitate to claim it would invalidate the
owner's "life insurance/assurance" as I suspect that depends on
individual policies, but it is worth an extra serious thought!
Remember that the very word "kiln" is actually pronounced "kill"
in some parts of the English speaking world, so do not allow it
to become the reality and literally true in your case!!!
Also... Kim Lindaberry said:
>Surely I'm not the only one here that trusts that my gas hot
water
>heater will function without me spending 24 hours a day in the
basement
>staring at it.
I am with Heidi Haugen on this. There is absolutely no comparison
between household appliances and industrial equipment. Even so...
In any situation, trust is fine. Your insurer will indeed trust
that you have your boiler serviced by a qualified engineer every
12 months as the law also demands of gas appliances (in the UK).
Everyone involved will trust that the boiler will not malfunction
and if it does, there will be a fail-safe device of some sort.
After all, it was built to be on 24/7 for months on end.
Other items in the home and studio are not designed for constant
use in anything like this manner and it is the consequences of
any *action* concerning these which is very important to monitor.
Boiling pots on a stove (for example) are quite a different
kettle of fish. Literally! Why? Because there are no failure and
safety features built into them, except human intervention. Same
goes for anything with an "on" and "off" switch, including kilns!
As a matter of fact, it all depends on your own insurance
cover... Read the small print to find out what your insurer/s
think is reasonable, what they will cover in the event of things
going wrong. Some household policies will state, if you leave
your house uninhabited for more than 48 hours, you would be
required to turn off the water supply, empty water from tanks &
pipes and leave taps open/on, then turn off gas and electricity
and unplug all electrical equipment. Washing machines owners are
now technically required to sit and watch them through the whole
cycle in the UK, thanks to the number of floods caused by
"absentee" operators who were not around when they failed. This
is naturally tiresome for those who switch on before going to bed
at night or in the day before they go out. Even the person in
another room (including the bathroom) is not considered
"present".
So... Look at the small print. Perhaps you will be surprised just
how often it is required of you to sit in the cellar watching
your boiler, Kim!! Whether it is worth your while taking to the
cellar 24/7 is a different matter! If you have a kiln down there,
then the duration of each firing will remain a minimum
"attendance time"!
Sincerely
Janet Kaiser -- at the end of a perfectly glorious day which had
temperatures topping 20C and more in the direct sun... Moths fly
around the lighted windows at night, clouds of flies hover under
the trees and I think I even saw a bat flying round last night!
No wonder the birds are nest building around town, pigeons,
sparrows and finches are really vocal and pairs of ducks, gulls
and cormorants are courting right outside my window all day!
Winter? I had to unpack my summer clothes or swelter
uncomfortably!
***********************************************************
The Chapel of Art : Capel Celfyddyd
8 Marine Crescent : Criccieth : Wales : UK
Home of The International Potters' Path
Tel: ++44 (01766) 523570 http://www.the-coa.org.uk
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Kim Lindaberry on fri 3 dec 04
OK, I want everyone who who HAS NEVER EVER walked away from VISUAL
SIGHT of their kiln during the ENTIRE firing cycle to raise their
hands! This includes going to eat a bit, answering the telephone in the
other room, going to relieve yourself of all that coffee you had to
drink to stay alert. Please, raise you hands NOW!!! I'm not seeing very
many hands raised out there. So for everyone who didn't raise your
hands the original RANT suggests that you aren't a professional and you
need to get a different hobby. I kind of thought that was just a bit
overboard. Well maybe not just a bit overboard, more like Chicken
Little, the sky is falling.
I agree that kilns should be monitored on a regular basis during the
firing, but it is ludicrous to believe that we should pay good money
for safety features and then ignore we have them. What's the point of
paying those extra bucks? Maybe there is a good market for Wayne Seid's
suggested "idiot button" on the side of the kiln that has to be
pressed every 15 minutes or so in order for the kiln to continue to
fire . . . even with a controller, because there seem to be a lot of
people here that claim they would always be present to use it 24/7 when
they are firing their kilns. Think of the money you could save. Your
insurance company would be extremely happy and would probably give you
reduced rates. And you wouldn't have to pay extra for that costly
computer controller because you would have your trusty idiot button to
press.
william schran on sat 4 dec 04
Kim wrote:>I agree that kilns should be monitored on a regular basis during the
firing<
THIS is the operative phrase. Thus is what I do at home & school,
monitor the kilns on a regular basis.
I do the same thing with my clothes dryer. I also don't turn on my
clothes dryer or dishwasher, then go to bed or go out just to "run up
the road". I do all sorts of things around the house while these
devices are running and check on the progress of the "cycle" at
regular intervals.
Do I stay in the studio the entire time the kiln is operating - no
(got my hands raised Kim), but I do have a manual timer set at the
1/2 hour to go off to remind me to check the progress of the firing
because my attention will focus on something else and I need the
audio prompt. For other folks, checking each hour might be adequate,
but I do crystalline firing in a manual kiln and I fire fast - 4
hours to cone 6, then cooling and maintaining a certain temperature
for 4 hours requires constant attention.
I think the problem involves folks who don't monitor their kilns on a
regular schedule then write in with:
"I woke up this morning to find a molten mess in the bottom of the
kiln. What happened?"
Bill
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