Dan Dermer on mon 24 jan 05
I happen to LOVE Ikea, but always get that same feeling that Mel describes
when browsing the dishes and glassware: OH-MY-GAWD this is so stylish and
SO CHEAP. yikes... how will I ever make it selling dinnerware as a potter?
Then, I always take a deep breath and remember that my work is hand-made,
created for people who want hand-made items in their home, and probably not
for the average person buying a set of dishes for at Ikea for $19.99.
So why do I enjoy a trip to Ikea? Like browsing a magazine, there are great
ideas and inspirations for things I may want to make. On my last visit, I
saw a cool white-glazed ceramic pitcher -- simple shape, pulled spout,
perfect handle. Great design. It's a shape I'm adapting (not out right
copying...) into my work. And of course, it will have the glazes I use
instead of the toilet-bowl white like the one at Ikea. And mine might cost
$40-50 versus the $6.99 version at IKEA, but they will sell.
Different target audiences for different products.
Here's a link to an article that just ran in our local newspaper ("Trendy
Ikea ho-hum at home Swedish shoppers don't buy into U.S. fascination with
giant retailer") which kind of underscores the point that IKEA is low-end,
at least in the opinion of its home country:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/01/22/BUGQ8AUFDJ1.DTL
We potters offer a high-end, one-of-a-kind product! That's what we need to
remember.
-Dan
p.s. other Ikea objects of inspiration: tin watering-can w/beautfil handle
in home/garden area; interesting narrow-neck glass vases in various sizes,
etc. etc. at least they're all cheap enough to take one home and study for
form and line.
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/ddermer
mel jacobson on mon 24 jan 05
i took my first spin around our new ikea home store at the mall
of america/minneapolis.
phew.
big...lots of stuff.
mostly great quality.
then i went to dishes, glass wear.
shocko.
double shocko.
very nice dinner plates. $1.99
better dinner plates $2.59
very well designed set of dishes for 28 piece set
$16.99
several of the glazes were really wonderful.
one was almost a hare's fur. they showed a set
with a white charger, hare's fur dinner plate with orange
handle less mugs, orange bowls. very beautiful.
it makes one think a bit.
who is our customer?
what is it we do when we make hand made
things?
this is an old discussion here on clayart...we just finished
it a couple of months back.
but, when you go to a store like ikea, see it first hand...and
see the chinese and portuguese pots. well, it is daunting.
it reminds me to keep using rhodes 32/fire hot, make things
that no one else can sell...esp commercially...then i will be
fine.
i sure don't want to make porcelain/white/plain dishes.
it would be hard to compete with what i saw today.
all have that dansk double ring foot.
clear/no blem glazes. of course we have no idea how
long they will last....but i suppose, who cares? buy
new ones.
i bought some big K dishes last year. 30 some pieces for
$11.99. got two sets. (farm stuff, hay creek.)
and, they are nice.
who knew?
mel
we bought 36 glasses today 12 oz, 9 oz. 6 oz.
12 bucks. and the design was wonderful. 8 ginzu knives in
a box, colored handles for the farm. 9 bucks.
you can buy a complete computer office...tables, chair, benches,
storage area in boxes for about 500 bucks.
mel jacobson/minnetonka/minnesota/usa
http://www.pclink.com/melpots
http://www.rid-a-tick.com
Jonathan Kirkendall on tue 25 jan 05
Went to Ikea last week - spent an hour and a half shopping, then in line
checking out, only to discover to my great dismay that they quit taking
checks two weeks ago...I had to just walk away and leave everything
there (I was currently waiting for my new credit card from the bank and
didn't have one on me...).
I do like IKEA. Still, after going there for years now I've noticed
their designs don't change much. I find many of their sofas sqare, low,
uncomfortable. But their fabric designs, rugs, curtains, all rock.
I'll go next week to buy a rug. With a credit card, sigh.
Jonathan in DC
mentioned my Tibetan Mastiff in a post a few days ago. A Clayarter in
Tennessee saw it, sent me an email off list - she also has a Tibetan
Mastiff, wondered if they were related. Turns out her dog is our dog's
great aunt, Jazz, the sister of the Tibetan Mastiff champion, Jack the
Bear. Marvelous!
John Rodgers on tue 25 jan 05
I've not seen the ceramic products from Ikea, but I did a 'Net search
to have a look. What I saw gave me a chuckle. Nice looking ceramic ware
wil very simple lines -- all either slip cast or hydraulic-pressed.
Basically more mass produced clap-trap in ceramic media. The volume of
production that is required for this type operations demands use of
production methods that can accomodate the demand of the marketplace. I
didn't find anything particularly spectacular, just interesting. Those
super thin, strong plates can't be made anyway except by pressing a low
water clay in a hydraulic press - 30 ton to 90 tons pressure per square
inch. And there must be enough presses of this type to meet production
demands. Big operations need for this kind of stuff. Plates a bit
thicker can be made on automated jiggering machines that can produce 75
plates a minute. As for cups or mugs,
they can be pressed in a ram-press by the score in a single stroke of
the press. I had an interest in purchasing a Ram-Press on time, and
found that I could press 24 mugs per stroke of the press. The low water
clay would dry over night, giving a big advantage in time. Some of the
cup/mugs shown on the Ikea web site are slip cast. The forms do not lend
themselves to either jigger/jolly or press. Must take a huge plant to
house enough molds to do that kind of slip cast production.
In my mind, the target market of Ikea is clearly not the market of
studio potters. I don't see any competition except perhaps right on the
fringe. We as studio potters - whether large studios or small
one-person operations - produce unique wares and the buyers of those
products are unique - they don't want the ordinary mass produced stuff.
They have an appreciation of the fine handmade whatever - both the craft
and the tradition of it.
Time to go to my studio - got more of those unique handmade bowls to
make today. I just tested a new glaze-clay combination that turned out
georeous. I'll sell them all.!!!!
Regards,
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
mel jacobson wrote:
> i took my first spin around our new ikea home store at the mall
> of america/minneapolis.
>
> phew.
> big...lots of stuff.
> mostly great quality.
> then i went to dishes, glass wear.
> shocko.
> double shocko.
>
> very nice dinner plates. $1.99
> better dinner plates $2.59
>
> very well designed set of dishes for 28 piece set
> $16.99
>
> several of the glazes were really wonderful.
> one was almost a hare's fur. they showed a set
> with a white charger, hare's fur dinner plate with orange
> handle less mugs, orange bowls. very beautiful.
>
> it makes one think a bit.
> who is our customer?
> what is it we do when we make hand made
> things?
>
> this is an old discussion here on clayart...we just finished
> it a couple of months back.
> but, when you go to a store like ikea, see it first hand...and
> see the chinese and portuguese pots. well, it is daunting.
>
> it reminds me to keep using rhodes 32/fire hot, make things
> that no one else can sell...esp commercially...then i will be
> fine.
> i sure don't want to make porcelain/white/plain dishes.
> it would be hard to compete with what i saw today.
> all have that dansk double ring foot.
> clear/no blem glazes. of course we have no idea how
> long they will last....but i suppose, who cares? buy
> new ones.
> i bought some big K dishes last year. 30 some pieces for
> $11.99. got two sets. (farm stuff, hay creek.)
> and, they are nice.
> who knew?
> mel
> we bought 36 glasses today 12 oz, 9 oz. 6 oz.
> 12 bucks. and the design was wonderful. 8 ginzu knives in
> a box, colored handles for the farm. 9 bucks.
> you can buy a complete computer office...tables, chair, benches,
> storage area in boxes for about 500 bucks.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> mel jacobson/minnetonka/minnesota/usa
> http://www.pclink.com/melpots
> http://www.rid-a-tick.com
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
Mike Gordon on tue 25 jan 05
On Jan 24, 2005, at 5:42 PM, mel jacobson wrote:
> i took my first spin around our new ikea home store at the mall
> of america/minneapolis.
>
> phew.
> big...lots of stuff.
> mostly great quality.
> then i went to dishes, glass wear.
> shocko.
> double shocko.
>
> very nice dinner plates. $1.99
> better dinner plates $2.59
>
> very well designed set of dishes for 28 piece set
> $16.99
Mel
I ran into the same problem here in Walnut Creek, Ca. in the next town
over ( 3 minutes drive ) a shop has garden, fountain, sculpture and
large planters. The planters are large, 25" diameter,30" tall,
beautiful cobalt glazes, $20.00. I went in and asked who owned this
place, the guy that I asked just happened to be the owner, I gave him
hell for selling out of the country ceramics, told him he was going to
drive me out of business. He just shrugged. This situation is rampant &
probably the reason we have this huge deficit. Too much $ going out not
enough coming in. Sort of like being a potter! It's a delicate balance
to make ends meet. Mike Gordon
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
BJ Clark on tue 25 jan 05
This one time, I went to a Kia dealership. They had a WHOLE care for
$7k!!!
It was this pretty blue.
There was even an automatic for $8k!!!
$8K!
I thought to myself, Man, how will Mercedes ever make it? I could buy
like 5 kia's for the same price as my E700.
-----
BJ Clark
With his tongue planted firmly in his cheek on the nicest day of the
year in western Colorado.
On Jan 24, 2005, at 6:42 PM, mel jacobson wrote:
> i took my first spin around our new ikea home store at the mall
> of america/minneapolis.
>
> phew.
> big...lots of stuff.
> mostly great quality.
> then i went to dishes, glass wear.
> shocko.
> double shocko.
>
> very nice dinner plates. $1.99
> better dinner plates $2.59
>
> very well designed set of dishes for 28 piece set
> $16.99
>
> several of the glazes were really wonderful.
> one was almost a hare's fur. they showed a set
> with a white charger, hare's fur dinner plate with orange
> handle less mugs, orange bowls. very beautiful.
>
> it makes one think a bit.
> who is our customer?
> what is it we do when we make hand made
> things?
>
> this is an old discussion here on clayart...we just finished
> it a couple of months back.
> but, when you go to a store like ikea, see it first hand...and
> see the chinese and portuguese pots. well, it is daunting.
>
> it reminds me to keep using rhodes 32/fire hot, make things
> that no one else can sell...esp commercially...then i will be
> fine.
> i sure don't want to make porcelain/white/plain dishes.
> it would be hard to compete with what i saw today.
> all have that dansk double ring foot.
> clear/no blem glazes. of course we have no idea how
> long they will last....but i suppose, who cares? buy
> new ones.
> i bought some big K dishes last year. 30 some pieces for
> $11.99. got two sets. (farm stuff, hay creek.)
> and, they are nice.
> who knew?
> mel
> we bought 36 glasses today 12 oz, 9 oz. 6 oz.
> 12 bucks. and the design was wonderful. 8 ginzu knives in
> a box, colored handles for the farm. 9 bucks.
> you can buy a complete computer office...tables, chair, benches,
> storage area in boxes for about 500 bucks.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> mel jacobson/minnetonka/minnesota/usa
> http://www.pclink.com/melpots
> http://www.rid-a-tick.com
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
Ivor and Olive Lewis on wed 26 jan 05
Dear Mike Gordon,
If a natural majority of your people elect an administration and a
government that "negotiate" "Bilateral Free Trade Agreements" with
other national communities and you continue to permit them to do that,
then you have no protection against a flood of imported goods. Without
tariff barriers and Import quotas local manufacturers are driven to
the wall.
Soon, your farmers will be cursing the land of Oz but you will be able
to eat cheap beef, quaff Fosters brew, pour Barrosa wine into Chinese
glass and our farmers will die from the lack of cheap generic
medication.
Tis a crazy mixed up old world we live in.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
S. Australia.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Gordon"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2005 2:19
Subject: Re: ikea blues/not cobalt
> On Jan 24, 2005, at 5:42 PM, mel jacobson wrote:
>
> > i took my first spin around our new ikea home store at the mall
> > of america/minneapolis.
> >
> > phew.
> > big...lots of stuff.
> > mostly great quality.
> > then i went to dishes, glass wear.
> > shocko.
> > double shocko.
> >
> > very nice dinner plates. $1.99
> > better dinner plates $2.59
> >
> > very well designed set of dishes for 28 piece set
> > $16.99
> Mel
> I ran into the same problem here in Walnut Creek, Ca. in the next
town
> over ( 3 minutes drive ) a shop has garden, fountain, sculpture and
> large planters. The planters are large, 25" diameter,30" tall,
> beautiful cobalt glazes, $20.00. I went in and asked who owned this
> place, the guy that I asked just happened to be the owner, I gave
him
> hell for selling out of the country ceramics, told him he was going
to
> drive me out of business. He just shrugged. This situation is
rampant &
> probably the reason we have this huge deficit. Too much $ going out
not
> enough coming in. Sort of like being a potter! It's a delicate
balance
> to make ends meet. Mike Gordon
> >
> >
>
> >
______________________________________________________________________
_
> > _______
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> > melpots@pclink.com.
> >
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Ivor and Olive Lewis on wed 26 jan 05
Dear John Rodgers,
You forgot to tell us that they use the same methods to produce Toilet
Bowls in even greater quantities.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
S. Australia.
Lee Love on wed 26 jan 05
mel jacobson wrote:
> i bought some big K dishes last year. 30 some pieces for
> $11.99. got two sets. (farm stuff, hay creek.)
> and, they are nice.
> who knew?
I heard today, something that I predicted on our last go-round
about China and WalMart: The world banks are getting rid of their
dollars and are buying Euros. Everyone outside America seems to
understand that you can't kept going into debt and keep an economy
healthy. We are eating seed corn. Hold onto your seats folks.
We ain't seen nothing yet....
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://www.livejournal.com/users/togeika/ WEB LOG
http://public.fotki.com/togeika/ Photos!
mailtoandrew@FSMAIL.NET on wed 26 jan 05
Hello All,
Just a few thoughts about the debate:
1. Do craft potters and Ikea / Walmart / etc serve the same market?
To an extent yes: pots made and sold for domestic use.
2. Do the pots in Ikea / Walmart / etc pose a threat to craft potters?
Will consumers who are getting increasingly used to buying low cost
imported ware be prepared to purchase higher priced craft pieces? Who
knows but the perception of pots is changing from prized possessions kept
in Granny=92s china cabinet to ephemeral commodities.
3. Ignoring the selfish Im-all-right-jack attitude of dismissing cheap
imports as not being a direct threat to an individual craft potter what
other consequences might imports pose?
Exporting manufacturing jobs, such as to Asia, does have a negative effect
on the economy. Fewer jobs means less money for buying luxuries which
craft pots undoubtedly are. The relatively recent collapse of so many
internet and telecoms companies, and not least Enron, shows the nonsense
that was the so called new economy. Apart from small and highly
specialised cases such as Switzerland s banking sector strong economic
nations have a large, vibrant manufacturing base.
Many raw materials used by craft potters are predominately produced for
industry. The huge demand from industrial manufacturers lowers the unit
cost of production enormously; remove the big users and the production of
raw materials becomes uneconomic and hence craft potters will lose
suppliers.
Domestic support is not prejudice; its patriotic and pragmatic.
Regards,
Andrew
Janet Kaiser on wed 26 jan 05
Next time you are at Ikea, buy a set of those
incredibly inexpensive cork table mats. Anyone
who makes casseroles, oven-to-table ware or just
serving dishes will find that if they display
their work on them, (a) it looks good (b) they
can give a mat to the buyer of the pot... A
discretionary action which will probably make
them into a life-long client for you and your
work. PLUS it gives you the opportunity of saying
the pot should never be put straight into a hot
oven from the freezer, onto the dining table
without a mat, etc. etc.
Then look for the lazy susies... Stone, marble or
wood. GREAT for displaying large, heavy pots and
sculptures. Easy to turn around with style
instead humping and thumping your wares onto
display stands... You can positively see people
thinking of dents in their antique furniture when
you do that. A complete turn-off for them.
Contrast that with a gracious swirl on a lazy
susy, done well and discretely... It will help
any prospective client get a real feel for a
piece they may not have looked twice at before.
Next grab some candles! Ikea sell inexpensive tea
lights and ordinary candles. If making anything
to hold candles, it is imperative you include one
with the item otherwise you look really mean!
Most people who buy candles usually have many
already and a great many more than one
candlestick to their name. We have around 40
various shapes and sizes, but I am now very, very
wary about candlesticks which come with hand
dipped, shaved candles... It means that finding
commercial candles to fit will be impossible, so
I no longer buy anything which does not hold a
"regular" sized candle.
Sincerely
Janet Kaiser
**************************************************
**********
THE CHAPEL OF ART - or - CAPEL CELFYDDYD
8 Marine Crescent : Criccieth : GB-Wales LL52 0EA
Tel: ++44 (01766) 523122
http://www.the-coa.org.uk
Contact: Janet Kaiser: The International Potters
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