Rod Wuetherick on wed 2 feb 05
I have a couple of questions about on-glaze enamels etc.
1) In your opinion can a competent, experienced, safety minded ceramicist
use lead based enamels safely?
2) Those that are experienced in on-glaze application have you found other
less toxic substitutes for doing onglaze i/e non lead based that still give
as brilliant of colour response.
3) How much residual lead is really left in a electric kiln after a firing.
The reason why I ask these questions is there are some people in my studio
that are expressing concern over me using/making my own enamels based on
lead.
It is my opinion that as a ceramicist\potter of over 12 years now, and being
a fastidious potter at that i.e in terms of cleanliness. Studio mopped
everyday, tables wiped down etc. That I can safely use lead based enamels
with the caveat that strict mixing, application and firing safety strategies
are used.
I would really appreciate feed back from those of you who work in clay
institutions etc. I would like to bring any responses to our group studio
meeting. For and against the use of these.
I don't want this to get into a discussion of the toxicity of lead we all
know it is a dangerous substance. What I would appreciate is if we can focus
the discussion on can lead based enamels be used safely.
Thanks very much to any and all who respond to this.
Peace,
Rod
Randall on thu 3 feb 05
At 6:21 PM -0800 2/2/05, Rod Wuetherick wrote:
>I have a couple of questions about on-glaze enamels etc.
>
>1) In your opinion can a competent, experienced, safety minded ceramicist
>use lead based enamels safely?
Lead isn't really safe for anyone to use, that is why it is being
rapidly phased out and has been removed from paints and primers since
about 1978
>
>It is my opinion that as a ceramicist\potter of over 12 years now, and being
>a fastidious potter at that i.e in terms of cleanliness. Studio mopped
>everyday, tables wiped down etc. That I can safely use lead based enamels
>with the caveat that strict mixing, application and firing safety strategies
>are used.
>I don't want this to get into a discussion of the toxicity of lead we all
know it is a dangerous substance.
Lead is insidious, it get's into the air, on every surface of the
room in the form of particulates, on your clothes, skin- everything
and it doesn't simply "go away", washing down table tops and floor
surfaces is marginally effective at best- the dust will get on the
walls, ceiling, light fixtures, in the cracks between the floor and
so forth. If you vacuum with a regular vacuum it spews the lead dust
into the air- passes right though filters except for a HEPA system.
Lead of course is accumulative and builds up in the body.
I would say avoid lead at all costs and find alternatives- eventually
the lead will no longer be used in anything- even solders are more
and more "lead free" with the lead solder being phased out. It's last
real use of any quantity is in batteries.
A paint chip the size of your fingernail can contain enough lead to
poison a child.
It's not the chips -- it's the dust that makes children sick
The statement that a tiny chip of lead paint can poison a child is
technically correct, but misleading. If a child were to swallow that
chip, most of it would pass through his or her system without being
absorbed. If that chip were ground up into dust, however, say, by a
belt sander, and then swallowed, that child could be in serious
trouble. "Dust is the principal pathway for the ingestion of lead,"
says Roy Petre of the Massachusetts Department of Public Health. "The
finer the particle, the more readily it's ingested and absorbed
across the gastrointestinal wall."
The human body is able to flush traces of lead out of the system, but
unprotected exposures to airborne lead dust -- or worse, the fumes
released when a torch is used to remove lead paint -- can result in
dangerous levels of lead being absorbed into the bloodstream. High
lead levels in adults can lead to health problems as diverse as high
blood pressure, fatigue, anemia, headaches, mood changes, memory
lapses, digestive disorders, kidney damage and reproductive problems.
To avoid contaminating an entire room, you should use a vacuum
cleaner that's rated for HEPA filtration or do a thorough wet cleaning
The standard wet-cleaning method practiced by abatement
professionals, lead-safe remodelers and savvy homeowners is a
three-container cleanup: The first container is a spray bottle filled
with household detergent; the second is an empty (squeeze-out)
bucket; the third is a rinse bucket filled with clean, hot water.
It's a good practice to follow at the end of a remodel as well as
during regular cleaning.
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/lead/
Gerry Lockhart on thu 3 feb 05
Rod,
> 1) In your opinion can a competent, experienced, safety minded ceramicist
> use lead based enamels safely?
> 3) How much residual lead is really left in a electric kiln after a firing.
>
I guess I would also be concerned about venting leaks in addition to what
might be left in the kiln. It becomes even more important to make sure
there are absolutly no leaks where vapors could get into the room. And the
are around where the vent is exhausted is also suspect and dangerous and
will become contaminated with lead compounds.
Gerry
Paul Lewing on thu 3 feb 05
on 2/2/05 6:21 PM, Rod Wuetherick at rod@REDIRONSTUDIOS.CA wrote:
> 1) In your opinion can a competent, experienced, safety minded ceramicist
> use lead based enamels safely?
Yes, of course. A person with those qualifications can use lead glazes
safely, too. But there are several factors which make the use of enamels
(china paints) safer than lead glazes. One is the very tiny amounts you
use. While potters often make their glazes in 5-gallon buckets, china
painters use their colors by the teaspoonfull. Another is that, if you use
a traditional oil medium, once they're mixed there is no dust.
>
> 2) Those that are experienced in on-glaze application have you found other
> less toxic substitutes for doing onglaze i/e non lead based that still give
> as brilliant of colour response.
The non-lead ones just don't have the subtlety that lead ones do, but you
can get the full range of colors. I've never tried any that were billed as
no-lead, but I had some of the low-lead ones, as well as the regular ones
tested in a lab. The low-lead ones came close to falling within the
standards for lead release, but not quite.
>
> 3) How much residual lead is really left in a electric kiln after a firing.
None form china paints, at least not with commercially made china paints.
If it has been fritted, lead does not volatilize at that temperature. I
tested my kiln after 19 years of china paint firings, probably 100 a year
or so, and the test detected no lead. I also had my blood tested- I'm way
under the amount that would worry anyone. And I do big murals- I use
probably 10 times as much china paint in a year as most china painters.
>
> The reason why I ask these questions is there are some people in my studio
> that are expressing concern over me using/making my own enamels based on
> lead.
I'm writing a book on china paints, and I've done a chapter on safety and
durability. It's not complete yet, but if you'd like me to send you a copy,
I will. Some people will panic if the word "lead" is just said in the same
room as them, but there is no need for alarm.
Paul Lewing, Seattle
Ivor and Olive Lewis on fri 4 feb 05
Dear Rod,
With respect for yourself and those you work with my answers to your
questions are as follows :
1 You are in control of your own actions but you put your co-workers
on trust with respect to their safety. So you will need to inform them
and all newcomers of your working methods and ensure secure storage of
all of your materials and equipment associated with your lead based
"on glaze enamels" when you are not present in the studio.
2 If you search the catalogues of potential suppliers it is possible
to find lead free on-glaze enamels. Yes! They may not exhibit the
qualities you require. However, given the range of Ceramic stains
currently available and the availability of matching fluxes you should
be able to compound substitutes.
3 Only practical research involving sampling, analysis and measurement
can tell us how great the degree of contamination is in any particular
case. Could be a costly exercise
4 To answer a question you have not asked. What are your concerns
about ware that has a lead bearing compound on the surface being
passed on to other users? If, as we are told, lead compounds are able
to reach the walls of a kiln, surely they must also contaminate the
very reactive surface of a reheated glaze during an onglaze firing.
How would you deal with this potential hazard?
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
S. Australia.
Paul Lewing on fri 4 feb 05
on 2/3/05 12:53 PM, Gerry Lockhart at gerry@WIZARDSENDEAVORS.COM wrote:
> I guess I would also be concerned about venting leaks in addition to what
> might be left in the kiln. It becomes even more important to make sure
> there are absolutly no leaks where vapors could get into the room. And the
> are around where the vent is exhausted is also suspect and dangerous and
> will become contaminated with lead compounds.
Not at china paint temperature, if you're using fritted lead. Raw leas will
volatilize at that temperature but fritted lead will not. I've been firing
lead-based overglaze enamels in my kiln for 19 years. I tested it - no
lead.
Paul Lewing, Seattle
Randall on sat 5 feb 05
At 12:09 PM -0500 2/5/05, Christine Martin wrote:
>a little while ago, while looking for something else, i discovered the label
on my bottle of clear gloss ceramic glaze and it had a lead warning on it.
>i don't
have a studio. as a beginner
> i've been
>working on my kitchen table. and when i work, i'm messy.
>what about that dust? i have children and pets. should i
>be looking for a different glaze that doesn't have lead in it and pitch this
>one?
Oh dear!! you are working with this stuff in the kitchen??? this is
one reason many chemical and commercial products firms will not sell
to consumers and require proof a customer buying potentially
dangerous or legally liable products has a legitimate commercial
business and understands the hazardous ingredient information sheets
they send as required by OSHA
Christine, we probably ALL started on the "kitchen table" as I'm sure
few here could afford to spring for a commercial space with equipment
right off the bat, but when I did my own plaster piece molds and cast
pewter into them I made sure to buy Brittania alloy- 100% lead-free,
99% tin knowing I DIDN'T want lead in my place and especially all
over the floor or counters in shavings, filings, residue or fumes.
I've only recently been able to get my basement shop area done enough
to be able to work casting hydrocal and plaster down there.
If you have pets you need to be ESPECIALLY careful of lead, they lick
things, eat off the floor, walk across the floor then lick their paws
and they are far more sensitive to lead poisoning than adults. My
advice;
Ditch the lead glaze and get a substitute, next, you need to do a
good job cleaning, HEPA vac every crack, wash the surfaces while
rinsing the rag/sponge well and changing the water frequently. Get a
home lead test kit and test the areas you cleaned and see.
I'm going to refer people to this site for MSDS sheets/information;
http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/list?tbl=TblBrands&alpha=M
If you use the search box, search for "ceramic glaze" in "type of
product" many products of Duncan and others, I selected one at
random, in part says;
Brand Name: Duncan Art Glazes
Form: liquid
Acute Health Effects: Frit is a fused silicate glass substance. The
components of this glass product listed below are from the inventory
of potentially hazardous substances referenced by FED/OSHA in 29 CFR
1910.1200.
Exposure to the hazardous ingredients can occur if spray mist is
inhaled or glaze
ingested and the ingredient dissolves out of the glass. Because of
the chemical stability of frit and its resistance to attack by acids
or alkali, this is anticipated to occur very slowly.
TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION
Chronic Health Effects: Principal Routes of Absorption: Inhalation
and ingestion
Effects of Overexposure: Of primary concern is chronic overexposure
to lead. Initial warning properties are poor. Prolonged or repeated
inhalation and/or ingestion of lead containing frit dust may result
in lead poisoning, with symptoms of weight loss, stomach cramps, loss
of coordination and joint and muscle pain. Lead can cause kidney
damage and delayed effects involving the blood, gastrointestinal,
nervous, and reproductive systems. Excessive exposure to lead dusts
during pregnancy can result in neurological disorders in infants. For
additional information consult OSHA lead standard 29
CFR 1910.1025.
Metal fumes and/or fluoride containing vapors from firing ma cause
lung inflammation and injury in terms of hours with symptoms of chest
pains, chills, cough, headache, and diarrhea.
Carcinogenicity: California Proposition 65:
WARNING: This product contains chemicals known to the State of
California to cause cancer, birth defects, or other reproductive harm.
Carcinogenicity: In IARC Supplement 7, inorganic lead compounds are
given a 2B rating which indicates "sufficient evidence" for
carcinogenicity to animals and "inadequate evidence" for
carcinogenicity to humans.
Health Rating: *3 (serious)
Handling: Handling: When product in use, do not eat, drink, or
smoke. Wash hands immediately after use. Keep sealed. Keep out of
reach of children. Do not use this product if pregnant or
contemplating pregnancy.
Randall
Webdirector of "Randall's Lost New York City"
A historical photo essay of lost buildings from NYC's architectural history
http://www.lostnewyorkcity.com/
YIM: lostnyc2004
claybair on sat 5 feb 05
Christine,
Your story is just what drove me into a tizzy last year.
We had an empty bowls event sponsored by a gallery. They enlisted
the help of a local well know potter. This potter ignored
my alarm over using a low fire Duncan leaded glaze that purports
to be safe. I took the bowl I had made and set it out for testing.
It came back within the FDA guidelines so I could not take my protest
further. To my horror the gallery sold those things without so much as a
warning. My fear is that there is a generation of kids being poisoned
when the eat their tomato soup in the bowl that they made at the local paint
your own shop!
Now the clincher here is that the FDA guidelines were established in 1970.
The testing equipment is quite antiquated by today's equipment. A common
over the counter lead testing kit will turn bright orange and proves to be
more sensitive than the equipment that set the standards in 1970.
Last year Duncan recalled one of their "safe" leaded glazes....
Sorry.... I must stop this ... drives me wild!!!
My suggestion to you is to get a lead free lowfire glaze. Find a workspace
away from and out of your living space. I work in my garages. You can get a
heater or have them installed.
Please write a nasty gram to the company who makes this killer of IQs.
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Christine Martin
a little while ago, while looking for something else, i discovered the label
on my bottle of clear gloss ceramic glaze and it had a lead warning on it.
reading this thread about lead safety, i'm now a little bit worried. i don't
have a studio. as a beginner with my little rinky-dink pieces, i've been
working on my kitchen table. and when i work, i'm messy. there are splatters
everywhere, i get stuff on my hands and apron, even into my hair. (i used to
be one of those kids that really got into mud pies in the sandbox.) of
course i always clean up after myself, scrub down the table because it's
after all our kitchen and we eat off that table. as a beginner, it never
occurred to me that this stuff could be potentially harmful. i just got that
stuff because it's the same we used at a ceramics painting class in a local
church around here. what about that dust? i have children and pets. should i
be looking for a different glaze that doesn't have lead in it and pitch this
one? or do i need to adjust my messy work habits a bit. i read about wiping
down wet, and that's pretty much what i do, spray cleaner, then wipe off and
then wipe again with a clean wet rag. what else can i do to make sure we're
all safe other than setting up a workspace in my garage which is really cold
in the wintertime but is a possibility for the future.
christine
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005
John Baymore on sat 5 feb 05
Rod,
There are some other possible issues that no one has mentioned yet.
It is not clear from your description of your studio situation... but if
it is in the USA, is a business operation of some sort, and/or has any
employees....... using any lead compounds in that space possibly brings
some pretty stringent OSHA lead laws into play. Most businesses find that
complying wit hthe lead standards set by OSHA are so cost prohibitive that
switching away from lead is the obvious solution. I am not sure how such
laws would apply to a "pottery coop" type situation...... but I'd
certainly check with counsel.
Another aspect is if lead (or cadmium) is used on wares that are sold to
the public there are specific FDA laws that apply to the potter. These
will need to be complied with to make you "legal". These standards are
also a bit involved. (See the archives for my old postings about the FDA
going after the NH Potter's Guild members about lead compounds years ago.)
SO.... more fuel for thought.
best,
................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
Wilton, NH 03086
JBaymore@compuserve.com
http://www.JohnBaymore.com
Christine Martin on sat 5 feb 05
a little while ago, while looking for something else, i discovered the label
on my bottle of clear gloss ceramic glaze and it had a lead warning on it.
reading this thread about lead safety, i'm now a little bit worried. i don't
have a studio. as a beginner with my little rinky-dink pieces, i've been
working on my kitchen table. and when i work, i'm messy. there are splatters
everywhere, i get stuff on my hands and apron, even into my hair. (i used to
be one of those kids that really got into mud pies in the sandbox.) of
course i always clean up after myself, scrub down the table because it's
after all our kitchen and we eat off that table. as a beginner, it never
occurred to me that this stuff could be potentially harmful. i just got that
stuff because it's the same we used at a ceramics painting class in a local
church around here. what about that dust? i have children and pets. should i
be looking for a different glaze that doesn't have lead in it and pitch this
one? or do i need to adjust my messy work habits a bit. i read about wiping
down wet, and that's pretty much what i do, spray cleaner, then wipe off and
then wipe again with a clean wet rag. what else can i do to make sure we're
all safe other than setting up a workspace in my garage which is really cold
in the wintertime but is a possibility for the future.
christine
Randall on sun 6 feb 05
At 8:56 PM -0500 2/5/05, John Baymore wrote:
>Rod,
>
>There are some other possible issues that no one has mentioned yet.
>
>It is not clear from your description of your studio situation... but if
>it is in the USA, is a business operation of some sort, and/or has any
>employees....... using any lead compounds in that space possibly brings
>some pretty stringent OSHA lead laws into play. Most businesses find that
>complying wit hthe lead standards set by OSHA are so cost prohibitive that
>switching away from lead is the obvious solution.
>Another aspect is if lead (or cadmium) is used on wares that are sold to
>the public there are specific FDA laws that apply to the potter. These
>will need to be complied with to make you "legal".
Not only this, but the lead is accumulative and that's why it's so
insidious- with each little exposure it is incorporated into bone and
the body and at some point the threshold is reached and you are
poisoned, but after the damage is already done!
The blood tests and chelation therapy as I understand it can only
remove the lead in the BLOOD, once it leaves the blood and is
incorporated into bone it can't be removed. So as I gather, you can
be exposed today, take a blood test in say 4 months and show
negative, but by then the lead that was in the blood that would have
shown positive in tests 3 months prior- is already incorporated into
the bone.
Last but not least, the legal liability of producing something that
the public is going to handle, some people are more sensitive to
things like lead and can get sick from exposures that everyone else
handles in stride, so the scenario is;
Someone gets sick, they go to the doc and find hey! you have lead
poisoning what have you handled recently or eaten? "Well, I bought
this gorgeous platter at a ceramics store and have been using it for
my salad bowl could that be it?"
Runs a test on the plate YOU produced, and it comes back positive for
lead, 3 times the maximum allowed, the lady gets a lawyer and sues
you into oblivion for her medical bills, damages to her health and
punitive damages because she is now terrified to use any ceramic at
all and feels sick all the time, plus she is certain she now has
kidney cancer because of YOUR plate. Result is, your insurance goes
sky high and you can't afford it it's dropped, or you are out of
business.
Happens all the time.
True story heard on NPR- a ladder was bought by a farmer who propped
it on frozen manure by the barn, used it to go on the roof, left it
there. Come spring he went to climb the ladder, the manure had thawed
and the ladder shifted resulting in the farmer falling off with
injuries. He sued the ladder manufacturer and WON, he won despite
there being some 15 warning labels and stickers all over the ladder
about how and how NOT to use the ladder and he won despite he being
the idiot who didn't check the ladder before huffing his fat butt up
it.
--
Randall
Webdirector of "Randall's Lost New York City"
A historical photo essay of lost buildings from NYC's architectural history
http://www.lostnewyorkcity.com/
YIM: LostNYC2004
Craig Clark on sun 6 feb 05
For those of you who are concerned about the folks from OSHA coming
down on you the threat is small and becoming smaller. The agency has
basically had it's nuts cut off by the wild and wooley industry friendly
folks in the current administration. The air may get dirtier, mercury
levels will rise, arsenic levels will rise, lead contaminaiton will
increase (not sure if this is a plus or minus for you folks who are
convinced that lead is the way to go in ceramics), but bidness will be
"better."
Using lead is IGNORANT. I don't care if Robin Hopper does so or
not!!!!!!
Continuing to Rant!
Craig Dunn Clark
619 East 11 1/2 st
Houston, Texas 77008
(713)861-2083
mudman@hal-pc.org
Randall on mon 7 feb 05
At 9:11 PM -0600 2/7/05, Carl D Cravens wrote:
>On Sun, 6 Feb 2005, Randall wrote:
>
>>True story heard on NPR- a ladder was bought by a farmer who propped
>>it on frozen manure by the barn, used it to go on the roof, left it
>>there. Come spring he went to climb the ladder, the manure had thawed
>>
>
>I'm having trouble finding a definitive cite, but according to the folks
>on alt.folklore.urban, the basis of the suit was a defective ladder.
>Google groups for: ladder manure group:alt.folklore.urban
This was heard on a National Public Radio program around 1984, one of
those interviewy "magazine" type stories they do and they interviewed
the ladder manufacturer extensively, I don't remember the details
other than it was a long story I believe about frivolous lawsuits.
There may very well be other manure and ladder type folklore tales
in what you found, but this was 1984- well before the internet as we
know it!
>
>And the lady that sued McDonald's for burning herself with their hot
>coffee was justified, too. :) (When you know all the details, it's clear
>that McDonald's was grossly negligent and _knew_ they were.)
The lady bought HOT coffee knowing it was hot, and spilled it on
herself in her own car while the car was moving as I recall.
Sometimes people just have to take responsibility for their own
shortfalls and mistakes and not blame mom, their bad childhood,
society or a company. I'm surprised she didn't sue Ford or Chrysler
because the brakes were too strong or something and caused the coffee
to spill.
The courts are full of such cases, that's why product liability
insurance is sky high, I once asked for a quote on product liability
insurance in case someone hangs one of my sculptures on their wall
and it falls on their foot, I gave the details and I was quoted some
outlandish figure like $5,000 for 6 months or maybe a year- I'd be
lucky to even do that in gross sales in a year let alone make enough
profit to afford that!
--
All the best,
Randall
Webdirector of "Randall's Lost New York City"
A historical photo essay of lost buildings from NYC's architectural history
http://www.lostnewyorkcity.com/
YIM: LostNYC2004
Rod Wuetherick on mon 7 feb 05
Craig,
While I appreciate you getting in on the discussion. I must point out that
as I have done in the past on ClayArt you are yourself doing now. It is okay
to rant and sometimes they are most fun to read. But you are not offering
anything constructive!
What experience do you have in China Paints, Onglaze, etc? Do you know of
workable alternatives? Have you tested your assertions with controlled
tests? Can you answer why if in fact there are so many "safer" alternatives
why is it that the china paints industry still used lead in most of their
products? If cost was the only concern why is it that there are not high-end
replacement products that contain no lead yet offer the same satisfying
results?
Would you even for a second consider the reason why "lead" has such a
terrible name in the general public is perhaps because of leaded gasoline,
leaded paints, etc. that were unwittingly dumped on an ignorant and
unsuspecting public.
Have you considered the MSDS sheets of many of the compounds that potters
use in their work? Are you advocating that we avoid all of these chemicals?
Shall we all quit using lustres, acid etching, etc? Shall oil painters of
the world find a "safer" alternative to shading burnt umber rather than
using White Lead? Why is it that Titanium based whiteners for oil painters
just don't cut it? Can you offer alternatives?
I'm very willing to be open-minded in my quest for searching for a way to
finish my work. This is why I opened this discussion. Telling people that
they are ignorant, etc. is not all that constructive or helpful.
I'm not sure how long you have been in the pottery game Craig but I can tell
you that I have been in it long enough to know that I treat every powder in
my studio as if it was lead bearing, including the clay I throw. Before I
fell ill I went through an average of 20 tons of clay a year. Yet if you
walked into my studio you wouldn't find a clay splatter or crumbs anywhere.
There are GFI circuit's breakers on every plug that power tools are used on.
We have an average of 20 HEPA replacement filters for our masks in the
studio at all time. There are rubber gloves in every work area where
dangerous chemicals may be used. We have noise dampening headsets for power
tools, safety glasses for tools and for looking in kilns. The kiln room is
fresh air fed with a 280 CFM exhaust fan hooked up to a timer as well as a
line voltage cooling thermostat that turns on the fans whenever the kiln
room is hotter than 35 C, just in case someone forgot to set the timer or
didn't set enough time for the kilns. We have lights mounted outside the
kiln room that are lit when kilns are being fired. The studio is mopped
daily, shelves are wiped down (all of them) monthly, tables sponged daily,
etc. I have the MSDS sheets of every chemical we use in a binder in the
glaze kitchen. The list goes on and on and on
Ignorant - I think not!
Speaking of MSDS have you looked at one lately and compared the relative
dangers of say sulphates, barium carbonate, etc. to lead? Can you tell us on
a scale of one to ten, which in usage are more or less dangerous? At what
level of PPM does silica dust present a health danger? What are the exposure
amounts and durations?
Can you tell us how industry uses lead? Is it used for covering cables,
lining laboratory sinks, used in the manufacturing of sulphuric acid, used
as protective shielding from x-rays and radiation, rust inhibitors, sound
and vibration dampening equipment, solder, friction reduction in bearings,
etc. Oh I forgot, because you are so against the use of lead I was wondering
what alternative have you found for the battery in your car? Just curious as
there surely must be a workable safe alternative with current technology? If
there is one do you own one and where did you buy it?
If I was to use lead based china paints\enamels I suspect in a lifetime I
wouldn't use the amount of lead in one laboratory sink, or even 10 car
batteries. I would probably use less lead in 100 firings than my wife uses
in one large oil painting.
As I said in an earlier posting we all know lead is dangerous - we don't
need someone ranting about it. Especially when it seems patently clear that
perhaps that person really hasn't done much research.
Lead in hobby ceramic china paints - yes I think they should be more
strictly controlled. For example perhaps the person should have to answer a
questionnaire to show that they are in fact not ignorant of the dangers of
lead, pigments etc.
Should someone be fear mongering the dangers of lead? I suppose with the
general public it is wise. When dealing with professionals that know and
respect the materials they use in the application of whatever it is they do.
One should not be pandering fear but offering insightful questions, sound
logic, and practical experience.
If one has doesn't have any of this to offer then perhaps they should find
something constructive to add or tell someone that genuinely does not know
the dangers of lead and scare the pants off of them.
I have spoken to many people now about china paints. Whether I mix or buy
them pre-made the bulk of them are lead based. How I end up going about this
is still open to question and research. The fact that these painted vessels
for the most part will be on non-functional pieces, and if they are on
functional pieces they will of course be on the outside well below the lip
line etc.
My point is Craig sometimes rants are fun and sometimes they are highbrow -
I know because some of my rants have been somewhat highbrow and perhaps at
times condescending even though most of the time they have been tongue in
cheek, for example my Soldner mixer rant I had with Vince - thank god he
realized that I was just having some fun and stirring the pot.
But your rants are neither constructive, educational nor entertaining. You
are not backing any of your assertions with real data as Ivor does, or with
shared personal experience as others have.
I'm searching for good alternatives and so far the palette seems very, very
small.
Peace,
Rod
P.S
Was this a rant? What is the definition of a rant anyway? I'm trying to rant
less these days. Did I just blow it?
Carl D Cravens on mon 7 feb 05
On Sun, 6 Feb 2005, Randall wrote:
> True story heard on NPR- a ladder was bought by a farmer who propped
> it on frozen manure by the barn, used it to go on the roof, left it
> there. Come spring he went to climb the ladder, the manure had thawed
> and the ladder shifted resulting in the farmer falling off with
> injuries. He sued the ladder manufacturer and WON, he won despite
> there being some 15 warning labels and stickers all over the ladder
> about how and how NOT to use the ladder and he won despite he being
> the idiot who didn't check the ladder before huffing his fat butt up
> it.
I'm having trouble finding a definitive cite, but according to the folks
on alt.folklore.urban, the basis of the suit was a defective ladder.
Google groups for: ladder manure group:alt.folklore.urban
And the lady that sued McDonald's for burning herself with their hot
coffee was justified, too. :) (When you know all the details, it's clear
that McDonald's was grossly negligent and _knew_ they were.)
--
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)
If I want your opinion, I'll take you out of my killfile.
Craig Clark on wed 9 feb 05
Rod, first of all let me say that you were throwing far more clay
than I ever have or probably will. Twenty Tons per year....dammmnnn! Now
that's a lot of mud. You are indeed one of the folks that I describe as
"Super Potters>" I was not attempting to impune the manner in which you
run, wire, clean or otherwise manage the general activities of your
studio. I was specifically referencing the idea of using lead based
glazes on functional ware in particular and what I believe is a need to
gradually get away from using lead for decorative purposes as well. At
least if it is being handled by the average potter rather than carefully
controlled settings in industry.
It is my belief that glazes that are put on functional ware need to
be stable, durable and non-leaching. Esthetic concerns should not over
ride these primary ones in my opinion. I speak of this as one who is
concerned with making glazes as "safe" as we are currently able to do,
within reason.
I am not suggesting that the use of lead in industry will somehow
magically go away. That would be rediculous. As you mentioned, there are
far to many applicaitons for it's use to immediately be suspended. It's
use in a car battery being an excellent example.
Decoration of clay however is not, in my opinion, analogous to a car
battery. This is the proverbial apples and oranges argument. The
reference to what painters use comes much closer to home. I believe that
it would also be wise for the painters to think long and hard before
using lead in their pigment. I do not know how wide spread this practice
is. Hope there aren't too many of them using lead. Indeed, I would think
that painters, who almost univerally refer to themselves as artists
rather than craftsmen would not be so concerned with a mere technique.
Their concerns, atleast if they are being consistent with the artist
moniker, being of a far loftier nature than those of us lowly potters
(Note, I am being sarcastic here with the "lowly potter" remark.)
The strong public reactions to the use of lead, mine included, have
indeed come from the dumping of leaded paint, leaded gas, and the
absolutley horrendous record of US Lead over the past several decades.
The old admonition was that you knew when a representative of US Lead
was lyiing because his lips were moving.
That gets to the heart of my concerns. I do not trust what the folks
in the industry have to say. I beleive that they are more than happy to
compromise the general public health in the name of the bottom line. The
record is repleat with examples of this behavior. I'll not expand on
them on list but if you would like contact me off list and I will
provide extnsive bibliographic information for your reading pleasure.
In the case of not being able to add to the discussion, I believe
that I have done just that from my perspective. I will refrain from
using the word ignotant in the future. I did not mean that you are
ignorant. I meant that the use of lead when there are so many other
alternatives out there is ignorant.
You are correct in your assumption that I do not use china paints.
Never have, and if I need to handle lead, never will. The alternatives
that I suggest is moving to different types of glazeing and/or
decorating. Getting away from those things that we know are the most
harmful. You mentioned lusters. They are pretty, seductive, and should
not be allowed on any type of functional pottery. Same, same with the
wide range of low temp fuming techniques and other low fire processes
(including Raku which I do.)
Perhaps I just don't have enough information about the lead issue.
Maybe there is a method by which the lead is basically rendered inert
until it reaches it's fusion point in the matrix in glaze as is safely
encconsed in the matrix. Is there some type of fritting process that
accomplishes this? I also do not know anything about possible lead
contamination when using fritted forms of lead. Is there any type of
problem that result from this? Is there a lead based low fire glaze that
will withstand a basic leaching test?
I'll try not to rant or offend in the future.
Craig Dunn Clark
619 East 11 1/2 st
Houston, Texas 77008
(713)861-2083
mudman@hal-pc.org
Jon Pacini on wed 9 feb 05
Greetings All ---Hi Rod----
The length of your post sure qualified you for rant status and the subject
is certainly ripe for ranting away, as others have previously shown, but
your presentation was way to sensible to get you in the top ten---even this
early in the year.
You have to be much more unreasonable and emotional if you want to get
serious about ranting. :-)
Best regards
Jon Pacini
Clay Manager
Laguna Clay Co.
PS---------To paraphrase Supreme Court Justice John Marshall----I can t
define a rant, but I know it when I see it.
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