pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sun 6 mar 05
teachers...Timeless Pots.(Long but on-topic)
Hi Carl,
Sorry, I was groggy and just-up and was not being clear...
I would advocate a premis, in which, the pupil and the
instructor, value the acquisition of Throwing skills, and
elect to favor that as the premis of a semester's
Cirriculum.
If I were a Teacher, I would so this.
The first class session would be my Thoring, makinf Pulls,
making some cools Bowl of Vase or something...then, I would
imitate the worst, usual, pupils frustrated efforts to do
something, and say, "Which would you rather have, where
would you rather BE, for your two hundred schmucks tuition
and your 12 week time of sitting your asses on these little
cold stools ?:"
if the answer was to BE the first exemplar, then i would
say, "Here's the deal then...we learn to Throw, we learn to
Wedge, we learn to Pull...we will do it HUNDREDS of times
each class, and in 12 weeks bu god you will have learned
something...we will NOT be here so you can bring home some
ugly assed 'class glaze' piece of crap for Aunt Sue's
Christmas present...we are not morons, we ar aspirants..."
And they would come arouns right fast I imagine...
Rather than, struggleing bauble seeking students, paying a
few hundred bucks for an easy or fatuous 'art-credit', , to
bring home boxes of junk they glazed with class-glazes and
had the school fire for them...which amounts to little more
than a bad sort of 'Vanity Press'...and, where, at
semseter's end, they are patronised with all the crap they
got to bring home, and all of it looking more or less like
thick 'Bagels'...
When I first got into this, going to night-school, that is
what I saw...over and over, the same stupid condescending
deal.
Out of the first semseter of Ceramics I took, I kept maybe
two things...
From the second, I kept maybe three things...
From the third, I kept maybe eight things, and, those things
by anyone's standards, were pretty "good".
I was the only one who imposed this discipline on
themselves.
My initial thought, and I would have been fine if it HAD
been the agreement, was to keep nothing, and to learn TO
make things.
I was not there to be patronized and condescended to, I was
there to learn.
I asked the 'teacher' how come he did not prefer the
students/pupils learned to throw, rather than getting
distracted with obsessing over bad baubles, and spending
hours and hours on trying to save the same wrteched lumps
they had whirling from usually non wedged, out of the bag
hard clay and so on...and he said...
"No one wouyld pay two hundred dollars for an 'Art' credit
class where they do not get to bring lots of shiney colorful
things home to prove they had done it..."
More or less...
So...
Think about it...
I did...
Love,
Phil
el ve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl D Cravens"
To:
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: Tenmoku ,Celadons: Tony and Liz: Students and
teachers...Timeless Pots.(Long but on-topic)
> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
>
> > Maybe, after a year, or a six month or a ten month, or a
> > fifteen month, or whatever it may be for someone
> > individually, when, WHEN they have become a
competant-enough
> > Thrower and maker OF elusively 'good' forms.
>
> And would you, a beginner in clay, sit through six months,
ten months, or
> even fifteen months of being told, "That's not good
enough. Do it again."
> Who pays good money to have their ego stomped on?
>
> If we were talking an apprenticeship, for the purpose of
mastering a
> trade, that might be different. But today, one enters a
craft or an art
> for the purpose of and love of _creating_. Not just
practicing endlessly,
> until someone finally tells you that your work measures up
to a standard,
> and _then_ be allowed to really create. To spend months
throwing pots I
> know aren't going to measure up, aren't going to be kept
by _someone
> else's_ decision... and you think I'd put my heart into
these pots, just
> to please _you_, so that I might progress to the next
level at your whim?
>
> I'd take my money elsewhere, thank you.
>
> The first pot I kept is rather dumpy, glazed in cobalt
blue. I dump my
> pocket change in it at the end of every day. I didn't
take it around and
> show it to everyone... I knew it was far from perfect.
But it's a marker
> of progress. When I look at it, I can see how my skills
have progressed.
> The few pots I have are like a sketch book of beginning
drawings...
> they're not something I share with others (except to make
an example of my
> beginnings), they're there to remind me of where I've
been, and someday,
> of how far I've come.
>
> > I hate 'schools'...of every kind...
> >
> > And this IS something of 'why'...
>
> Because some schools realize their students are human and
don't want to
> spend months just practicing, striving to please the
teacher?
>
> --
> Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net) Wichita, KS
> Read my Pottery Journal: http://raven.phoenyx.net/pots/
> Madness takes its toll...please have exact change.
>
>
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Jason Truesdell on mon 7 mar 05
teachers...Timeless Pots.(Long but on-topic)
I actually took pottery class because I expected it to be humbling... =
though perhaps not to have my ego stomped on... maybe there's a =
difference between the two. I suppose if my instructor hadn't been =
supportive I wouldn't have kept coming back. But I appreciated learning =
when I wasn't doing things in the most effective way. The whole point =
was to get better, of course, after starting from nothing.
The North American mentality seems to be to gain a modicum of =
understanding--just enough to be dangerous--and then start producing =
something, however poor in quality. This isn't specific to pottery or =
art. You can find the same in language learning (where the model =
actually works pretty well), and software development (where it doesn't =
always hurt, but sometimes get trapped by their early successes and =
never develop a more sophisticated approach to problem solving). But =
pottery is one of those realms where people might be better served by =
slowing down and not being in such a hurry to make a trophy or a legacy.
I liked a book I read that suggested even when I was happy with a pot I =
had just thrown, I should be prepared to cut it in half, look at the =
cross section, and learn something. Some folks found it liberating to =
smash their less impressive pots. But most people do seem to need to get =
some sort of trophy out of their experience. Fine, then, let them have =
their trophy. But the instructor could surely fairly tell them how they =
could do better.
Jason Truesdell
http://www.yuzumura.com/
---- Original Message -----
From: "Carl D Cravens" >
To: >
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: Tenmoku ,Celadons: Tony and Liz: Students and
teachers...Timeless Pots.(Long but on-topic)
> And would you, a beginner in clay, sit through six months,
ten months, or
> even fifteen months of being told, "That's not good
enough. Do it again."
> Who pays good money to have their ego stomped on?
>
> If we were talking an apprenticeship, for the purpose of
mastering a
> trade, that might be different. But today, one enters a
craft or an art
> for the purpose of and love of _creating_. Not just
practicing endlessly,
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