clennell on tue 22 mar 05
Clayart: This is the note i sent Dick Lehman about the future of craft. I
added an amenden
What do you think are the most important issues facing the field of ceramics
today (and in the future)?
Dear Dick: What a HUGE question. One, I wrestle with daily. Here is an
effort.
I think that because of demographics (an aging population) that the field of
ceramics will and is exploding with newcomers that have pensions, time and
resources to take up pottery as a new life. In the classified of this CM
there were 2 potters houses for sale one for $600,000 and one for over
$800,000- surely this is a potters idea of a cruel joke! This is good news
for clay suppliers, magazine and book publishers and those of us that can
make part of our living by diseminating information. We make a sizeable
portion of our living now thru education, as the pot market has become
tougher for our work. I'm not so sure this boom is good for the craft that I
love. I witness more and more players but fewer and fewer venues where I
think fine craft belongs. I seem to have to travel far and wide in search of
a decent pot. I am a collector of pots, handsome well made pots not in the
Garth Clark category but certainly higher priced than one would purchase in
a crafty store such as Nancy's Nibbles and Knits. I would and have spent
$1000 on a pot that attacked my heart.
So what is the issue??? From my business degree I remember that defining the
problem is the hardest thing to do. Define the problem and then you can
come up with a solution. If you work on the wrong or the sub problems
you've wasted a bunch of time.
The problem- A decreasing size of the pie for professional potters making
handmade pottery.
Sub problems -competition with inferior products from hobbyists and off
shore rip offs.
- high volume ware mascarading as handmade.
-craft shows of poor quality in every town hall, church basement and arena
in the nation.
-fewer venues for work of integrity
I think I'll stop now, Dick. I don't want to sound like Sour Grapes rather
than Sour Cherry. I made my bed and in the end I guess it is better to be,
than to have. I just wish that I could feel that it is getting easier. I
used to be able to say "If it were easy, everyone would be doing it". Now
there are a lot of people than can do it with comfort. Hopefully they'll
hire me to do a workshop.
All the best,
Tony
P.S Please keep me posted as to what the future holds.
Added since Baltimore- Corporations saw money in craft shows and now they
have their eye on another money maker-the workshop. Don't think it won't
affect real potters, The Applachian Center and other such potter havens.
Kelly may fly to Texas for a PC conference and oopps sorry Vince no money in
the change jar this year. David will have done 3 free PC workshops and will
have no pots in his shop.
Potters lives are made up a bit from here, a bit from there and a little
bit of that. I think that there are two kinds of potters being created-
Those with a job and those looking for one. Dave in Idaho you're on the
right path.
I think the President of the Potters Council should do a meet and greet next
year in the Acers booth in his corporate golf shirt with embroidered label
on it and the matching pants. David I'll get you back for that Texan shirt
you made me wear.. I'll send Wanted Dead or Alive posters around the Gruene
show with you in corporate apparell. Potters running a craft show- the way
it ought to be. Potters working for a corporation- sell me on this one!
I fear that one more thing is being picked away at.
Remember the problem- a decreasing size of the pie for professional
potters??????
I ain't got the flu, but this smokin' gun is diggin in at the Alamo to keep
the range for cowboys in western apparel not golf tees.
Cheers,
Tony
Wes Rolley on wed 23 mar 05
>=20
>> I think that because of demographics (an aging population) that the fi=
eld of
>> ceramics will and is exploding with newcomers that have pensions,
There have been two good responses to Tony. Both Fred and Lee have added
to the conversation. I hesitate to add my thoughts, but I will anyway.
Tony is probably right about the demographic changes. So what? Our
guild, filled with "pension potters" has also just started offering a
scholarship to Bay Area student (See http://www.ovcag.org/). If there
is to be a future, we should do something to shape it.
Still, this division of the world into players and pretenders, real
cowboys and drugstore cowboys, potters and posers is one of the few
things that I find disagreable on a list that is otherwise inclusive,
open and warm. It says to many to sit down, shut up and go back to the
telly, none of which I have ever been willing to do.
Of course we know that the Dick Lehman's and Jack Troy's do not need to
tell anyone which group they are in, and theirs is not a group that I
will probably ever live long enough to get into.
Growing up in Flagstaff, Arizona and purchasing my first pots at the
Coconino County Fair as a gift to my Mother, I developed an appreciation
for things that were good. After having Harold Colton introduce me to
the collection at the Museum of Northern Arizona, I developed an
understanding of and appreciation of SW Indian Pottery without ever
making anthing, though I eventually took a workshop from Emma and
Delores Lewis (Acoma).
Along the way, I have puchased a few more pots, from Blue Corn and
Santana to Inez Running Rabbit (Cherokee), from a Shimaoka plate to a
Tsukamoto production donburi.
Maybe one reason lurkers remain lurkers is that they understand their
opinion will never count with the "real potters."
--=20
"I find I have a great lot to learn =E2=80=93 or unlearn. I seem to know =
far too
much and this knowledge obscures the really significant facts, but I am
getting on." -- Charles Rennie Mackintosh
Wesley C. Rolley
17211 Quail Court
Morgan Hill, CA 95037
(408)778-3024
http://www.refpub.com/
Fredrick Paget on wed 23 mar 05
>
>I think that because of demographics (an aging population) that the field of
>ceramics will and is exploding with newcomers that have pensions, time and
>resources to take up pottery as a new life. In the classified of this CM
>there were 2 potters houses for sale one for $600,000 and one for over
>$800,000- surely this is a potters idea of a cruel joke!
>\\\>The problem- A decreasing size of the pie for professional potters making
>handmade pottery.
>\\\>Sub problems -competition with inferior products from hobbyists and off
>shore rip offs.
>\\>
>Tony
>
>
>
You hit the nail on the head there Tony, I confess that I am one
of those with a pension and investments and live in a house that
would sell in todays market for $800,000 as a tear down. Guy next
door sold his 6 years ago for $450,000 and it was torn down and a new
larger house built on the foundation.It sold for $1,900,000. The new
owner spent a good deal more on landscaping. It was called a remodel
because they left the floor and one wall standing. There is an
important tax advantages in a remodel over a complete tear down.
My wife bought our house 45 years ago for a pittance. We are in a
small town with good schools, low crime, and a half hour commute
north of San Francisco so property here is like gold.
I got into pottery because I love it and I have a background in
chemistry and engineering so sometimes I sound off on Clayart when a
proper question pops up.
I don't sell my pots, too much hassle with licenses and taxes.
Besides I am too deaf to sell at a craft fair and I don't want
customers traipsing through my studio at odd hours. Most of the good
pots go to friends and relatives on gift occasions. The rest are
accumulating on shelves in my old greenhouse. If I were a better
potter, when I am gone, it would be like George Ohr's trove. But I
guess most of them will wind up in the Salvation Army Thrift Shop,
besides my output is very small compared to a production potter.
I get my kicks out of trying new processes and trying to invent
others and in developing my skill.
I have met many wonderful people through clay and as they say it
keeps me off the street and away from the track.
Fred
--
From Fred Paget,
Marin County, CA, USA
fredrick@well.com
Charter Member Potters Council
Steve Irvine on thu 24 mar 05
One of the most important issues facing the field of ceramics today and in the future is the
difficulty new artists have in becoming established after their university studies.
There are so many energetic, dedicated, talented young people out there working their way
through the educational system. It is very encouraging to see the sophistication of their approach
to clay, both conceptually and technically, and it gives hope for a richer and more diversified
future for our medium.
But with the high cost of tuition (at least 5 times now what I paid when I went through college) and
the high cost of real estate, it is very, very difficult for a recently graduated artist to both pay off
tuition debts and pay the start up expenses of establishing a studio and career. My concern for the
future is that we will be losing a lot of good people during that difficult transition phase from
student to full time artist.
A partial solution would be to have more opportunities where recent graduates could become
attached to an establishment where they could work with minimal rent in exchange for services
such as mentoring students coming up, public out reach lessons and so on, so that they would at
least have a chance to get some of the financial realities under control, and get going with their
own long term goals.
Steve Irvine
http://www.steveirvine.com
Ceramic Design Group on thu 24 mar 05
Steve:
I could not have articulated this better!
Ceramic Design Group has internship programs and we have had these
available for many years. To our knowledge, this is a unique program
not available anywhere. A total immersion in all things ceramics.
Interested parties should contact
internships@ceramicdesigngroup.net
Jonathan
On Mar 24, 2005, at 5:43 AM, Steve Irvine wrote:
> One of the most important issues facing the field of ceramics today
> and in the future is the
> difficulty new artists have in becoming established after their
> university studies.
>
> There are so many energetic, dedicated, talented young people out
> there working their way
> through the educational system. It is very encouraging to see the
> sophistication of their approach
> to clay, both conceptually and technically, and it gives hope for a
> richer and more diversified
> future for our medium.
>
> But with the high cost of tuition (at least 5 times now what I paid
> when I went through college) and
> the high cost of real estate, it is very, very difficult for a
> recently graduated artist to both pay off
> tuition debts and pay the start up expenses of establishing a studio
> and career. My concern for the
> future is that we will be losing a lot of good people during that
> difficult transition phase from
> student to full time artist.
>
> A partial solution would be to have more opportunities where recent
> graduates could become
> attached to an establishment where they could work with minimal rent
> in exchange for services
> such as mentoring students coming up, public out reach lessons and so
> on, so that they would at
> least have a chance to get some of the financial realities under
> control, and get going with their
> own long term goals.
>
> Steve Irvine
> http://www.steveirvine.com
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
ccpottery@BELLSOUTH.NET on thu 24 mar 05
>'What do you think are the most important issues facing the field of ceramics
today (and in the future)?'
TONY answered (in part )
>' A decreasing size of the pie for professional potters making
handmade pottery.'
Herein lies one of my sermons on business ...
delete here if you have heard it already.
Everyone in clay is fixated on competing for the same client.
Many, many excellent potters never get their prices out of the range of beginners.
$15 will get me a mug by a somebody or a nobody.
How do you expect a consumer to appreciate the differences in design
and execution if they are the same price as a newbies?
If every plate is $20 no matter how good or bad ...can you blame them
for grabbing a $5 plate at the mall?
And don't blame the new potters because everyone yells at them when
they 'underprice' their work in any venue.
We need to believe there can be a 'Price Range' for pottery.
This means that the good to excellent potters have to move up a bit to give
some breathing room for the less proficient.
If you yell ... "nobody will buy them !!!" ... I will counter by asking you just
how well the 'one price' system is working for you right now.
>Sub problems -competition with inferior products from hobbyists and off
shore rip offs.
I agree with this as part of the problem but I think that more people trying their
hand at pottery will lead to more people respecting how difficult it is to do well.
Everyone has been in a September class with a beginner who was going to make a
set of dishes in time for Christmas !
This informed and educated audience should increase sales of good work.
>'- high volume ware mascarading as handmade.'
You betcha ... we are being killed by high volume, well made wares in the
large 'pre-packaged taste' stores ... and we are losing some of our clients
to them right now.
We are also losing them to easy Internet Gift Registries where you seldom
see American Craft represented ... ack ... to lose the wedding market without
a fight !!!
I think we need to market ourselves and our products as being for
the next step up ... we have to add value to our perception ... no one is
going to pay more for our work unless we give them a reason.
>-craft shows of poor quality in every town hall, church basement and arena
in the nation.
But once again ..... this is NOT the only customer we have.
These venues are the learning ground for the new inexperienced potter.
I have often advised new potters to try out their wings in these safe, low pressure venues.
If an excellent potter is in the booth next to you in a church basement ... it should
be because it is their church and they are doing it for the good of the church.
I would almost always guarantee it is not for the good of their bank account.
Potters like Tony and Sheila and many, many others are working hard to raise
the perception of the worth of pottery. They are not sitting around waiting for
things to change ... they are changing them in their own lives.
Please, everyone lets continue this discussion and see where it will lead.
Maybe others have had successes they can share with us.
Maybe we can brainstorm some great strategies for our Hand Made Pottery.
NO ONE ELSE IS GOING TO DO IT FOR US !
( and yes, I am yelling )
Chris Campbell - in North Carolina - recovering from NCECA and looking
forward with glee to Portland.
Chris Campbell Pottery, llc
9417 Koupela Drive
Raleigh, NC 27615
1-800-652-1008
1-919-676-2172
FAX : 919-676-2062
E Mail : chris@ccpottery.com
Website : www.ccpottery.com
Wholesale : www.wholesalecrafts.com
Dave Finkelnburg on thu 24 mar 05
Chris,
As usual, King Friday, you are right! :-) Very well said. Wish more folks would listen to you. Your advocacy of what I call market-based pricing, setting the price at what the market will bear, is wonderful! Keep up the good work.
It was very nice to see you, even briefly, in Baltimore.
Dave, still priced too low but, moving up...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Fred Hagen on thu 24 mar 05
Tony, this is another Fred with a thought on future issues facing ceramics--by the way Dick L.asked me for my thoughts on the issue as well (and I'm a nobody) . What I said was ,in brief ,that I think to understand the future we must understand the past and the present . However you slice it things change and although current work is influenced by the past there is always something a little different about the current work (Steven Hill's Teapots with an attitude). As professionals the new work --and I include the promotion of that work--must be embraced so that you can be a part of it as opposed to an observer of it. Are you the same guy that said " I think we have to find or create our customers. The public out there is a large and diverse one." CT April 04.
I happen to also be in the classification of people with a pension and a new found interest in pottery --I can't make a damm thing anyone would buy and probably never will but I like to think I know a little about the art and who is creating waves today . By the way--go to Tony Ferguson's web site at Tonyferguson.net --now there is someone who gets an A for promotion.
So that's it isn't it--no wallowing in what's going to be bad for the future of ceramics get on the train and embrace the new concepts of today i.e. promote yourself and your work. By the way, Dick said in his most recent CM article that he can make 1728 new glazes from his current studio glazes. Dick is exceptionally bright and no grass is growing under his feet --onward and upward
Our local community college (Kalamazoo Mich) brings in workshop people once or twice a year and I know where to find the artists who come and they could hardly be called "hacks" i.e. Dick Lehman, Steven Hill, Tony Winchester, and for this coming fall John Glick. We buy things from all who come and although I can't make a decent pot I have some made by people who can. The pensioners who now are into pottery will probably also buy pieces from people just like you --and the market should be getting bigger --sure the venues might be changing but they are still there --you just need to look in the right place.
clennell wrote:
Clayart: This is the note i sent Dick Lehman about the future of craft. I
added an amenden
What do you think are the most important issues facing the field of ceramics
today (and in the future)?
Dear Dick: What a HUGE question. One, I wrestle with daily. Here is an
effort.
I think that because of demographics (an aging population) that the field of
ceramics will and is exploding with newcomers that have pensions, time and
resources to take up pottery as a new life. In the classified of this CM
there were 2 potters houses for sale one for $600,000 and one for over
$800,000- surely this is a potters idea of a cruel joke! This is good news
for clay suppliers, magazine and book publishers and those of us that can
make part of our living by diseminating information. We make a sizeable
portion of our living now thru education, as the pot market has become
tougher for our work. I'm not so sure this boom is good for the craft that I
love. I witness more and more players but fewer and fewer venues where I
think fine craft belongs. I seem to have to travel far and wide in search of
a decent pot. I am a collector of pots, handsome well made pots not in the
Garth Clark category but certainly higher priced than one would purchase in
a crafty store such as Nancy's Nibbles and Knits. I would and have spent
$1000 on a pot that attacked my heart.
So what is the issue??? From my business degree I remember that defining the
problem is the hardest thing to do. Define the problem and then you can
come up with a solution. If you work on the wrong or the sub problems
you've wasted a bunch of time.
The problem- A decreasing size of the pie for professional potters making
handmade pottery.
Sub problems -competition with inferior products from hobbyists and off
shore rip offs.
- high volume ware mascarading as handmade.
-craft shows of poor quality in every town hall, church basement and arena
in the nation.
-fewer venues for work of integrity
I think I'll stop now, Dick. I don't want to sound like Sour Grapes rather
than Sour Cherry. I made my bed and in the end I guess it is better to be,
than to have. I just wish that I could feel that it is getting easier. I
used to be able to say "If it were easy, everyone would be doing it". Now
there are a lot of people than can do it with comfort. Hopefully they'll
hire me to do a workshop.
All the best,
Tony
P.S Please keep me posted as to what the future holds.
Added since Baltimore- Corporations saw money in craft shows and now they
have their eye on another money maker-the workshop. Don't think it won't
affect real potters, The Applachian Center and other such potter havens.
Kelly may fly to Texas for a PC conference and oopps sorry Vince no money in
the change jar this year. David will have done 3 free PC workshops and will
have no pots in his shop.
Potters lives are made up a bit from here, a bit from there and a little
bit of that. I think that there are two kinds of potters being created-
Those with a job and those looking for one. Dave in Idaho you're on the
right path.
I think the President of the Potters Council should do a meet and greet next
year in the Acers booth in his corporate golf shirt with embroidered label
on it and the matching pants. David I'll get you back for that Texan shirt
you made me wear.. I'll send Wanted Dead or Alive posters around the Gruene
show with you in corporate apparell. Potters running a craft show- the way
it ought to be. Potters working for a corporation- sell me on this one!
I fear that one more thing is being picked away at.
Remember the problem- a decreasing size of the pie for professional
potters??????
I ain't got the flu, but this smokin' gun is diggin in at the Alamo to keep
the range for cowboys in western apparel not golf tees.
Cheers,
Tony
______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Lee Love on fri 25 mar 05
Steve Irvine wrote:
>A partial solution would be to have more opportunities where recent graduates could become
>attached to an establishment where they could work with minimal rent in exchange for services
>such as mentoring students coming up, public out reach lessons and so on, so that they would at
>least have a chance to get some of the financial realities under control, and get going with their
>own long term goals.
>
Is the university is a concept that has come & gone? Clay
Centers can do many things we have depended upon Universities for in
the past. Now, that we have many established potters who learned
when education was affordable, maybe they need to teach the next
generation?
Here is an article from the Smithsonian's Oral history page
which speaks about what pottery was like in the Twin Cities 50 years
ago, compared to today. Here in Mashiko, before Hamada there were only
about 30 potters. Today there are between 400 and 900:
*Interview with Warren MacKenzie
Conducted by Robert Silberman*
http://archivesofamericanart.si.edu/oralhist/macken02.htm
"MR. SILBERMAN: Maybe we can turn to the university in a moment, but
when you first came here were there many other potters in the area?
MR. MACKENZIE: No, there weren’t. One woman I remember was Martha
Cutkomp [ph], who is a potter, and she was the only other person that I
remember as a working potter in this area. Gradually, potters have moved
in. First of all, some of the people who took classes at the university
stayed on and became potters when they graduated from school or they
went somewhere for graduate work and then came back here because they
liked the atmosphere in this area.
There is something about living in Minnesota, or living in the Midwest I
think I’d say. My pots are really most at home in the Midwest, and I
think there’s a number of potters who have gravitated to this area
because they find it sympathetic to hand pottery. And it doesn’t have to
be fancy hand pottery, such as you’re likely to find in the big
galleries in New York or San Francisco and so on, the latest thing. They
want pots they can use in their home and there are a lot of potters
around here now who are making that kind of work and are earning a
living as potters. Also we’ve got the development of the Northern Clay
Center, which is a studio and a classroom situation for people, and many
more of the schools around have got strong programs in ceramics. Not
only the colleges and universities but the high schools have now got
major programs in ceramics, which is wonderful. Instead of your having
students at the university who are starting from scratch and have never
seen clay, now you’re getting students who have had two years of it in
high school maybe, and if they had good training it’s wonderful."
http://archivesofamericanart.si.edu/oralhist/macken02.htm
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://potters.blogspot.com/ WEB LOG
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/ Photos!
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