URL Krueger on fri 25 mar 05
Beth,
Kindred spirit, peer of mine. We seem to be on the same
path in this pottery thing. Except maybe I'm just one step
ahead of you. I also got my wheel about 3 years ago, have
never taken a class and have had long periods, sometimes
months, of inactivity 'cause I just knew it wasn't going to
work. I almost gave up. But, it's starting to work for me
now. A couple of day's ago I threw a thin bowl about 12
inches across and 5 high. Here's some tips I learned.
1. Maybe taking a class is the best answer but I'm not much
of a take-a-class person. So, I bought a book on throwing
by Don Davis. Don't know if it's the best book but it sure
helped me. Look for a book dedicated to throwing that has
step by step instructions on centering, opening, pulling a
cylinder and so forth.
2. Use a good workable clay. Your preference might be to
make things out of porcelain but it's not the thing when
learning how to throw. I've settled on a buff stoneware
from Seattle Pottery supply. Turns out it's also the
cheapest. After you have some skill and confidence in
throwing then you can switch to porcelain or whatever you
might like. More on this later.
3. If something isn't working, try something different. I
took the normal suggestions and braced my left elbow on my
pelvic bone then on my thigh and still had trouble
centering. One night I was frustrated, but adventurous, so
I moved my elbow way out to the hollow just behind the
knee. The clay came right to center. Never heard anybody
recommend this technique but it works for me.
4. After messing around with various shapes, bowls, vases,
etc, I went back to the basic coffee mug and made quite a
few of those for a while. Just your basic cylinder first
and then you can belly it out or squeze it in for
variation. By doing the same shape repeatedly you can see
what effect each of your actions has by comparing against
the previous ones.
Now the reallly important stuff.
5. When I first started just getting something I could call
a pot was such an acheivement that I just had to keep it,
and I did. After a while I found that I could pull up a
basic cylinder without too much stress. That's when each
piece became less important and I could cut one in half to
take a look at the wall thicknesses without too much angst.
The experts will probably tell you that you should cut your
first, and second, and third thru 100th cylinder in half.
I don't necessarily agree with this. I think it is
important for a person to get some sense of accomplishment
out of what they are doing. When someday you look at your
pot and think it's really ugly but it hasn't collapsed,
then cut it in half. After that it will be easier.
6. Keep at it. However, when you get really frustrated and
are angry and mad, or you try to throw a pot and it just
doesn't feel good, then stop. If your frame of mind is not
right the pot isn't going to be right and there's no point
in continuing. In fact, continuing at this point is
counter-productive. But, don't wait too long to start
again. When you have relaxed or your mood changes then
give it a try again. That may be later in the day or maybe
not till the next day. Just don't wait a week or more; not
practicing gets you nowhere except deeper in the pit.
7. Once you get where you can make a few pots at once then
the next day take a critical look at them. Pick out the
bad ones and recycle the clay, but keep a few. You need
these to learn how to glaze and fire. They may not be
great yet but that's OK. If they are really ugly after
everything is done you can still take a hammer to them. If
they aren't too awful you can give them to family or
friends and they will think they are wonderful.
8. One of the best things I did was to take suggestions on
Clayart and cut way back on the water I use. I never
dribble water on the clay except at the very beginning. I
have a small bucket of water on my left side and I just dip
my fingers in it, rub my hands together to distribute the
water and make the goop thiner and rub that on the pot,
inside and out. This makes the clay plenty slick without
it getting saturated and collapsing. After a couple of
hours of throwing my drip pan around the wheel is almost
totally dry.
As for the wet glopy stuff. I put all of my solid waste
clay in a 5 gal bucket and let it dry out. The water from
the bucket I dip my fingers into I put into another 5 gal
bucket. When the bucket with water is half full I start
adding the dried clay to it and let it disintegrate. When
I think that it's about right I stir it well and let the
clay settle for a few days. Then I pour off the clear
water and scoop the clay out onto a large plaster slab.
When the clay dries out enough to be workable I wedge it up
and store in another 5 gal bucket with a tight lid until I
need it.
This recycled clay is wonderful to work with but does have
an unpleasant smell. It is softer than what comes fresh
out of the bag from the store which I think helps quite a
bit. I can get the clay to move on the wheel without using
as much force, which means I can move it quicker which
means I don't have to use as much water.
So, from someone who was lousy at sports but can chew gum
and walk at the same time as long as the mouth and legs are
synchronized but who can't talk and type at the same time,
keep at it and you will succeed. But, if seeing the clay
rise on the wheel and coaxing it into that sensous shape is
not what gets you all jazzed up but you still want to work
with clay give handbuilding a try. The best pieces I've
ever made were done by coiling, smoothing and paddling.
It's just a pretty slow process but you can make shapes
that you never could on a wheel.
Good luck to you and when you get where you don't know where
to go come back to Clayart. There are many who will give
you excellent advice and consul.
The experts may disagree with my methods but they work for
me and it's hard to argue against that.
--
Earl K...
Bothell WA, USA
Beth Christensen on fri 25 mar 05
I've had my wheel for 3 years...taken a couple of classes, and it seems
like I am just getting worse at throwing. When I see how many people do
it, and think about how I am a normally intelligent person with fairly
reasonable motor skills (eg I can walk and chew gum), I don't know why I
can't seem to master it. Yes, I know you have to throw many hundred pots
to get it ...and I haven't done it every day for three years..I do it
awhile and then get discouraged..then go back..
And another thing...what do you do with those wet saggy messes of clay you
are left with the throw fails (eg 95% of mine)? I know you have to let
them get harder and then wedge them up again...but if I practice on, say 5
a day, I have a huge mountain of too wet clay before long...
Anyone got some encouraging words or should I ebay the damn thing?
Earl Brunner on fri 25 mar 05
Taking a couple of classes doesn't tell us much. There is a huge difference
in the skills of teachers and what they present, and even in how long
classes are. If you are sitting at home throwing by your self, then who do
you watch to learn technique to get better. If you don't have someone
around that you can watch, then you might look into some videos. There are
a number of excellent ones out there and you can learn a lot from watching
them over and over.
I suppose it boils down to how badly do you want to make it work? You need
to set some clear goals for yourself. Focus on one specific shape until you
master it. We used to require three eight inch cylinders in college, before
they could even work on the projects that would earn a grade.
You need to work out a system for recycling your clay, either with plaster
bats or if you are in a dry climate, you can air dry. Here in Las Vegas, we
often just make worms of clay and prop them up in an inverted U shape, they
get good air circulation that way.
It sounds like you want to do it, you are just a bit frustrated. Get some
help.
Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Beth
Christensen
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 1:34 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Magic throwing solutions needed
I've had my wheel for 3 years...taken a couple of classes, and it seems
like I am just getting worse at throwing. When I see how many people do
it, and think about how I am a normally intelligent person with fairly
reasonable motor skills (eg I can walk and chew gum), I don't know why I
can't seem to master it. Yes, I know you have to throw many hundred pots
to get it ...and I haven't done it every day for three years..I do it
awhile and then get discouraged..then go back..
And another thing...what do you do with those wet saggy messes of clay you
are left with the throw fails (eg 95% of mine)? I know you have to let
them get harder and then wedge them up again...but if I practice on, say 5
a day, I have a huge mountain of too wet clay before long...
Anyone got some encouraging words or should I ebay the damn thing?
____________________________________________________________________________
__
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You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
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melpots@pclink.com.
Kate Johnson on fri 25 mar 05
Hi Beth...
> I've had my wheel for 3 years...taken a couple of classes, and it seems
> like I am just getting worse at throwing. When I see how many people do
> it, and think about how I am a normally intelligent person with fairly
> reasonable motor skills (eg I can walk and chew gum), I don't know why I
> can't seem to master it. Yes, I know you have to throw many hundred pots
> to get it ...and I haven't done it every day for three years..I do it
> awhile and then get discouraged..then go back..
Do you have anyplace nearby where you can take a class? It REALLY helps to
watch "a real potter" and to be able to ask questions. It helps to have
them watch YOU and tell you what you're doing wrong, too.
In lieu of that, how about some really good videos? I'll bet people can
suggest any number of them. There are just a bunch of basically simple
tricks that add up to a sublime result...once you get the hang of it. (If
you can walk and chew gum, you can DO this!)
Offhand, it sounds to me like you're throwing too wet--that often makes pots
collapse into that dread wet soggy mess. Don't give up, you can do this...
Best--
Kate Johnson
http://www.cathyjohnson.info/
Art, History, Nature and More at Cathy Johnson's Cafepress--
http://www.cafepress.com/cathy_johnson/
Graphics/Fine Arts Press--
http://www.epsi.net/graphic/
Earl Brunner on sat 26 mar 05
Malcolm gives some good advice here. It really is about the journey. What
Lili said about focus is good, but you will really kill yourself doing it
JUST her way. So mix the idea that Lili had about focusing on specific
skills and blend it with this. I really have to keep from laughing when my
beginning students are having a hard time with centering for example, think
they have worked on it long enough (even though they HAVEN"T mastered it
yet) and want to move on to the next step. In throwing, each step builds
off of the last one. So your focus CAN be on centering for example, but
after struggling to get a ball of clay centered, even though you really
might not have centering down in the sense that it is no longer a struggle,
go ahead and do some work on the next step. If you wait until you make
"perfect" pots before you keep anything, then you will be disappointed
because then you have to glaze them...........
Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Malcolm Schosha
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 12:02 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Magic throwing solutions needed
Beth,
There are plenty of good potters in the US, but not many good
throwers. A real mastery of the techniques is as difficult as
mastering violin or piano. For that level of mastery, you need a good
teacher, a lot of work, and time. But then you do not need to play
piano like Horowitz to be a good performer, plenty of jazz pianists
are so-so pianists, but still wonderful artists. The same with
potters.
I would not really encourage concentrating on throwing exercises
exclusively, unless you really want to do production potting. Doing
throwing practice only is discouraging. Try to make some shapes you
really like. And draw a lot. Ideas come from drawing. It does not
matter if the drawings are crude, or finished, it is just to develop
ideas. I know plenty of potters who worked for years, and even after
developing skills, still can only make pots like everyone else.
Developing ideas takes time too.
One more thing. Many potters work endlessly trying to reach a
particular goal. Nothing wrong with that; but while heading for your
goal, try to enjoy the trip as much as possible. No one ever achieves
perfection anyhow.
Malcolm Schosha
Avril Farley on sat 26 mar 05
Dear Beth
Poor you - first some throwing tips. Make yourself a pile of balls of
reasonably soft clay no bigger than you can hold in two hands - this volume
will be easier to centre and in theory will provide you with identical
finished results once you have the swing of it. Tell yourself it really
doesn't matter if they end up as reclaim. Don't go too fast, you will tense
your shoulders up. Try not to use too much water as you throw, just enough
to keep the clay surface from dragging. Try to throw a straight sided
cylinder and get all the height you need in three pulls - shaping and
bellying comes afterwards . Don't tug at the clay. Try using a sponge in
the outside hand to avoid uneven finger pressure. Keep the rim firm with
gentle pressure from your right forefinger or a bit of chammy leather as you
throw each section. Mop the inside of each cylinder with a sponge on a
stick before you wire it off the bat.
Reclaim as you go. Don't leave the clay in a soggy mess in the wheel tray
until you have finished your session. Drop it, well spaced out, straight
onto a plaster or wooden board, or even a pile of newspaper as you discard,
you will find that by the end of a session, or at least by the next day, the
clay will have hardened up enough to wedge. Look in the archives for
various methods of reclaiming very wet clay - i.e. the hanging jeans leg.
Good luck Avril in th Forest UK
Beth Christensen on sat 26 mar 05
Just a quick note to say thanks.. Wow..I love artists...so much
sharing...I have a huge amount of suggestions, encouragement and ideas
that I can draw from..Just thanks so much people.
Jennifer Boyer on sat 26 mar 05
Just a little perspective:
I have a new assistant who comes once a week to prep clay (30 yrs of
clay has worn out my hands) and it's giving me a peek into what I know,
since I have to teach her and I wouldn't know what I know without
finding out what a newbie DOESN'T know.....she's taken classes and
knows how to throw. She knows a bunch: how to pull handles and what
kind of decorations she likes to do on pots. She wants to be a potter.
She's further along than many folks..... But she learns huge amounts
every day from me. Basics. Things that to me are "doesn't everyone know
that?" kind of stuff. If she was home she would be learning every
lesson the HARD way. With me she's getting a head start. And taking
tons of notes....
Pottery has to be one of the hardest crafts to learn on your own
without someone teaching you!!
There are so many learning curves. My advice: try to work in a
teaching environment until you have learned to wedge, throw, hand
build, make handles, reclaim clay, glaze, practice safe studio habits,
geez, it goes on and on. And each one is a challenge!
You might think all you need to do is teach yourself to throw on a
wheel, but to make pots that's just the first baby step....
To learn to throw you need someone standing over you watching and
giving feed back. And it's the same for each step in the learning
process..
Sure, there are those who are self taught, but they must have had a
very high threshold for frustration and brick wall demolition...
What's the point unless there's absolutely NOONE in your area to help
you...?
To sell pots, noone is going to ask you how much help you got learning
your craft.....
It's hard enough to learn WITH help and support from others....
I knew a potter 30 years ago who wanted to learn everything on his own,
by himself. He built a kiln that collapsed during a firing.....I think
he could have used Clayart!
Jennifer, opinionated? Who ME?
On Mar 26, 2005, at 1:56 AM, URL Krueger wrote:
> Beth,
>
> Kindred spirit, peer of mine. We seem to be on the same
> path in this pottery thing. Except maybe I'm just one step
> ahead of you. I also got my wheel about 3 years ago, have
> never taken a class and have had long periods, sometimes
> months, of inactivity 'cause I just knew it wasn't going to
> work. I almost gave up. But, it's starting to work for me
> now. A couple of day's ago I threw a thin bowl about 12
> inches across and 5 high. Here's some tips I learned.
>
************************
Jennifer Boyer
Thistle Hill Pottery
Montpelier, VT
http://thistlehillpottery.com
Malcolm Schosha on sat 26 mar 05
Beth,
There are plenty of good potters in the US, but not many good
throwers. A real mastery of the techniques is as difficult as
mastering violin or piano. For that level of mastery, you need a good
teacher, a lot of work, and time. But then you do not need to play
piano like Horowitz to be a good performer, plenty of jazz pianists
are so-so pianists, but still wonderful artists. The same with
potters.
I would not really encourage concentrating on throwing exercises
exclusively, unless you really want to do production potting. Doing
throwing practice only is discouraging. Try to make some shapes you
really like. And draw a lot. Ideas come from drawing. It does not
matter if the drawings are crude, or finished, it is just to develop
ideas. I know plenty of potters who worked for years, and even after
developing skills, still can only make pots like everyone else.
Developing ideas takes time too.
One more thing. Many potters work endlessly trying to reach a
particular goal. Nothing wrong with that; but while heading for your
goal, try to enjoy the trip as much as possible. No one ever achieves
perfection anyhow.
Malcolm Schosha
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Beth Christensen
wrote:
> I've had my wheel for 3 years...taken a couple of classes, and it
seems
> like I am just getting worse at throwing. When I see how many
people do
> it, and think about how I am a normally intelligent person with
fairly
> reasonable motor skills (eg I can walk and chew gum), I don't know
why I
> can't seem to master it. Yes, I know you have to throw many
hundred pots
> to get it ...and I haven't done it every day for three years..I do
it
> awhile and then get discouraged..then go back..
> And another thing...what do you do with those wet saggy messes of
clay you
> are left with the throw fails (eg 95% of mine)? I know you have to
let
> them get harder and then wedge them up again...but if I practice
on, say 5
> a day, I have a huge mountain of too wet clay before long...
> Anyone got some encouraging words or should I ebay the damn thing?
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
________
> Send postings to clayart@l...
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@p...
joethepotter1948 on sun 27 mar 05
Malcolm is right, enjoy the trip!
And for Beth and all the other discouraged wannabees out there,
here's my take on it: throwing pots is like breaking horses... don't
keep at it till you're both frustrated. Work on it for no more than
15 minutes at a session, then take a break (but absolutely no more
than a day or two, and preferably no more than 24 hours per break).
Then, as you see you're making headway, gradually work into longer
sessions, and you'll find that not only do your pots get better but
you're also enjoying more the time you spend at making them. Watch
videos on throwing (I particularly got a lot from watching Robin
Hopper's video on throwing), and take classes from people whose work
you admire. I learned SOooo much from six weekly 2-hour lessons I
took at L&R Specialties in Nixa MO (90 miles from home!) that it
made the travel seem negligible. I'd go to one lesson, then
practice just that focal point for the next week, and concentrating
on just that particular lesson helped me hone my skills more
quiclky. You're not going to make exactly what that teacher makes
anyway, even if you try, but you'll develop your own style while
trying to do so.
And one other thing... don't "ebay the damn thing", bring it to me
and for a reasonable fee I'll teach you how to use it. ;o) Or, if
you're too discouraged to try again, just send me your equipment and
I'll teach somebody else to use it. Hey, you've already proven you
have this clay disease, so don't give it up! It'll get easier if
you'll be patient with yourself and your clay. And smile often.
Joe
in mid-Missouri where Spring rains have arrived.
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Schosha
wrote:
>... but while heading for your
> goal, try to enjoy the trip as much as possible. No one ever
achieves
> perfection anyhow.
>
> Malcolm Schosha
>
>
> --- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Beth Christensen
> wrote:
> > I've had my wheel for 3 years...taken a couple of classes, and it
> seems
> > like I am just getting worse at throwing. I do
> it
> > awhile and then get discouraged..then go back...
> > Anyone got some encouraging words or should I ebay the damn
thing?
> >
Neal on sun 27 mar 05
> 1. Maybe taking a class is the best answer
> but I'm not much of a take-a-class person. So,
> I bought a book on throwing by Don Davis.
> Don't know if it's the best book but it sure
> helped me.
For me, there's nothing like a good teacher to
help you develop your skills initially. From then,
it's practice.
We're fortunate to have a strong clay community that
includes a number of city, university, and private
facilities that teach classes and hold workshops.
Don Davis taught a 2-day workshop last year at the
NCSU Craft Center.
He has a couple of great two videos. I watched #2
in his series yesterday. I haven't seen #1, which
probably deals more with what you want. It's called
"Pottery Basics #1 Starting To Throw." #2 deals with
handles, spouts, and lids. I'm sure #1 is just as
good as #2.
Neal O'Briant
neal126@yahoo.com
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Beth Christensen on sun 27 mar 05
Yes, I think all of your ideas have merit, some things work for one
person, and not for another. I am fairly adept at coil building and think
I have a good feel for design and proportion. Certainly if I wanted
a "Perfect Pot", I could always head to Wal-Mart or any other mass
marketer. I've both gotten that horse breaking frustation feeling from
fighting the clay at the wheel too long, and also lost what little
progress I have sometimes made by staying away from the wheel for several
months on end. My reason for choosing to focus on learning to throw is
first, just to have some level of mastery of all the basic techniques of
potting. In other words, I don't want to say I prefer handbuilding when I
really am saying it because I can't throw. Do you know what I mean? And,
also, I think that if one can throw, there are so many more options for
design. I really love that I am reading so many "conflicting" bits of
advice...throw on a bat, don't throw on a bat, put your elbow here, put it
there, use a sponge, use your finger..etc. The reason being that it shows
me that there are so many ways to be a success at this. It really helps
to hear so many differing thoughts...
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