bea pix on thu 31 mar 05
i'm confused.
is this some sort of personal testimonial about a religious
investment opportunity? shouldn't this advertisement about investing
in a bible-promoting project be on some sort of commercial and/or
religious list?
it seems like there's an assumption that this is of common interest
to all since everyone is religious or a believer in some religion at
the very least, which i'm sure isn't the case, and anyway.....
what does it have to do with clay?
can we now expect to be seeing postings on this list informing us of
opportunities to help in the preserving, constructing or conserving
of certain ashrams, shinto temples, synagogues or mosques and their
religious documents throughout the country or world? although any of
these might be worthy ventures, i'm sure this is not the proper place
to hear about them!
has this list changed?
isn't it supposed to be about clay?
>here is the basic url.
>www.saintjohnsbible.org/
>if you goggle st. john's bible about 50 hits come up.
>many lead to pages/
>
>over half of the bible is complete.
>half of the old Testament is done. psalms.
>the first third of the new Testament is complete.
>
>this is a six million dollar project.
>it will take 7 years to do. every page is written
>in english for the first time ever....by hand.
>goose quills are used for the writing. 5 scribes, 3 women and two
>men are doing the text. donald is doing all the illuminations and
>color work. he has six guest artists doing pages. every religion
>in the world is being used as design images....wonderful persian rug
>patterns, Buddhist images. the old testament has a very `jewish`
>flavor. some of the priests said...`looks jewish`. donald said.
>`well`. duh. several world renowned rabbis have assisted donald
>in the old testament, and with help in the many hebrew scripts being
>used. donald has hired a rabbi with great skill to do the hebrew
>words.
>
>each page is 22x32 inches..vellum
>a new building is being built at st . john's abbey and university to
>house the bible and many other famous manuscripts. many are
>donating wonderful images for the collection...it will be amazing.
>st. john's has the world's largest collection of manuscripts on
>film. almost everyone ever done. the archives are amazing.
>it is all going online some day soon.
>
>this will be the defining craft project of our lifetime.
>many people get tears in their eyes when they first see the pages.
>i have seen it hundreds of time. it happens to me. and, you don't
>have to be religious or catholic to love this project.
>craftsmanship, understanding of materials, time. and a bit of money.
>
>i was the first person to buy a page. i gave it in sharlene's name
>5 years ago. several have given millions. but, i like her page...
>mel
>i will put a picture on my website...clayart page.
>it is pix of donald at our house, with the first fifty pages (2001)
>that had just come by plane from wales....i had just gotten
>out of the hospital, and had my disc with by book ready to
>send to amercan ceramics book division.
>we are pointing at our books. his in the trunk of a car, mine on a cd.
>he has been a close friend of mine for 25 years. i am proud to call
>him a friend.
>
>
>
>mel jacobson/minnetonka/minnesota/usa
>http://www.pclink.com/melpots
>http://www.rid-a-tick.com
>luckisprepaid
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
Andrew_M_Casto@PROGRESSIVE.COM on thu 31 mar 05
Bea,
I usually don't get involved in little spats like this, but I have to say I
thought your response to Mel's bible analogy was fairly ridiculous at best.
Did you read all of Mel's post? As far as I have read on this list, the
bulk of Mel's posts address preserving and illustrating the discipline and
dedication required in this craft. So he brought up a project done on the
bible...big deal. I thought the reference was thoughtful, helpful,
beautiful even. I could have cared less if he was talking about the Bible,
Torah, Koran, Bagavad Ghita, whatever. If all we are concerned about is not
making others offended with our discussions, then there are few things left
to talk about. Remember the Axner "Tsunami" pugmill/Lockerbie wheel
discussion? Give me a break. Let's lighten up.
I really don't like Lima beans...I hate them even...but if someone wants to
use them to reference our craft in some way, should I just stick my fingers
in my ears and say "LA LA LA LA"? Life is too short to get all cranky
about stupid garbage.
I met a guy the other day...he had a 1980 Dodge Ram for sale in front of
his house for $600 it was in decent shape. I knocked on the door to ask
about it, and 15 minutes later after hearing about his 5 heart attacks, how
bad the taxes were for his land which is so hard to take care of, every
profane word I can think of, and every negative part of his life (even that
he had broken 80 rakes in the past 20 years of taking care of his house -
can you imagine being so bitter that you keep track of how many rakes you
brake over a 20 year period?), I just walked away. That was the only 15
minutes I'll ever share with that guy, and he chose to make it full of
garbage. Every time I pass his house that's what I'll remember.
I don't have time for that. I don't think this list does either. I liked
the bible conversation, and I think we should feel free to comment on
anything that relates to the common struggles and joys we share as potters.
Mel's post was about the painstaking efforts of these people in creating a
true work of art...I'd like to think that I pursue that same goal in what I
do, and as such, I think that post was just fine here.
Andy Casto
Craig Clark on thu 31 mar 05
Bea, there really is no need for confusing. The post was meant, and
was, illustrative of craft at it's finest. An example....Craft and clay
go hand in hand. Unfortunately, often times, cratsmanship and skill are
missing in the clay world in these days. I lay much of the blame for
this at the feet of some of the University Art Departments which look
upon us muddy potters with varying levels of disdain.
The art programs are not solely to blame but they rank near the top.
The emphasis on idea and communication rather than the development of
skill and craft is an a the vary least a willing accompliss.
Craig Dunn Clark
619 East 11 1/2 st
Houston, Texas 77008
(713)861-2083
mudman@hal-pc.org
Susan Nebeker on thu 31 mar 05
bea pix wrote:
***i'm confused.
Why?
***it seems like there's an assumption that this is of common interest
to all since everyone is religious or a believer in some religion at
the very least, which i'm sure isn't the case, and anyway.....
The assumption that this artist and his work would be of interest to us is correct and obvious, considering the fact that most of us here on this list would consider ourselves lovers of art, or artist/craftsman. This illuminated manuscript and it's production are fascinating and it is an EXTRAORDINARY work of art. Why would the fact that it is executed in the context of a religious text render it irrelevant or worse- offensive?
****what does it have to do with clay?
Many varieties of art forms are discussed here. Were you offended by the website last month sharing the pics of Christo's installation in New York? Nary a speck of clay there either..........
***can we now expect to be seeing postings on this list informing us of
opportunities to help in the preserving, constructing or conserving
of certain ashrams, shinto temples, synagogues or mosques and their
religious documents throughout the country or world? although any of
these might be worthy ventures, i'm sure this is not the proper place
to hear about them!
Why not? I could not get enough of the cathedrals and abbeys in the UK during my month vist there a couple of years ago. The medieval artwork was incredible. In fact, thanks to a fellow potter's urgings, I made a point to see the oldest and best preserved illuminated manuscript in the world- The Book Of Kells. It is displayed and preserved at Dublin's Trinity College.College. An absolute high point of my trip.
I was spell bound. And I'm not Catholic, Anglican or even close to it.
***has this list changed?
Sheesh. No, and I hope it doesn't.
Susan Nebeker
Pollywog Pottery
www.pollywogpottery.com
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals
Kathi LeSueur on thu 31 mar 05
It seems to me that it's time for all of us to take a deep breath,
relax, and stop getting offended everytime someone says something that
we don't agree with or about a topic that we have no interest in (or
believe doesn't belong on Clayart). The tone on this forum has become
decidedly, and unneccesarily, nasty. I don't know why there are so many
angry people on Clayart but I wish they would take their anger somewhere
else. Joyce makes a mistake and sends out a spam post and gets thousands
of e-mails berating her. Can't even wait until you've read her
explanation. Just jump in there and bitch. Mel shares something perhaps
off topic and people get their noses out of joint. I liked his post. It
was nice to know that we share an interest in some other topic.
In the anonomous world of the internet it is easy to say things without
thinking. It is easy to misunderstand the intent of the written word. I
believe all e-mail systems should come with a delay mechanism. HIt send
and a bubble pops up saying "do you really want to say this to the
world". Then five minutes before it goes out.
Discussion is good. Intense discussion is good. Heated discussion can be
good. Angry and attacking discussion is not.
Just my opinion,
Kathi
Malcolm Schosha on thu 31 mar 05
Bea,
It seems to me that I can remember Mel mentioning once that his wife
is a calligrapher, and that is possabily why he is aware of
happenings in the world of calligraphy. Since I develped back and
wrist problems, I cant do much pottery any more, and concentrate on
mostly calligraphy and sign painting myself, although I still think
of myself as a potter.
The St. John's Bible project is the most important calligraphy
project of its kind in hundreds of years. Some great calligraphers
are working on it. I think it deserves some attention, and I am not
Christian. Craftspeople and artists need to be able to see the craft
and art as independant of the religious theme. If we can not enjoy
even eachothers arts and crafts, the world situation may be truely
hopless.
By the way, I have often wondered why potters so seldom use brush
lettering on their pots. I have been thinking of writing a post on
that. Lettering was common in the past on Chinese, Japanese, and
Islamic pottery. The Mayans too.
Malcolm Schosha
...............
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, bea pix wrote:
> i'm confused.
>
> is this some sort of personal testimonial about a religious
> investment opportunity? shouldn't this advertisement about investing
> in a bible-promoting project be on some sort of commercial and/or
> religious list?
>
> it seems like there's an assumption that this is of common interest
> to all since everyone is religious or a believer in some religion at
> the very least, which i'm sure isn't the case, and anyway.....
>
> what does it have to do with clay?
>
> can we now expect to be seeing postings on this list informing us of
> opportunities to help in the preserving, constructing or conserving
> of certain ashrams, shinto temples, synagogues or mosques and their
> religious documents throughout the country or world? although any of
> these might be worthy ventures, i'm sure this is not the proper
place
> to hear about them!
>
> has this list changed?
>
> isn't it supposed to be about clay?
>
>
>
>
>
> >here is the basic url.
> >www.saintjohnsbible.org/
> >if you goggle st. john's bible about 50 hits come up.
> >many lead to pages/
> >
> >over half of the bible is complete.
> >half of the old Testament is done. psalms.
> >the first third of the new Testament is complete.
> >
> >this is a six million dollar project.
> >it will take 7 years to do. every page is written
> >in english for the first time ever....by hand.
> >goose quills are used for the writing. 5 scribes, 3 women and two
> >men are doing the text. donald is doing all the illuminations and
> >color work. he has six guest artists doing pages. every religion
> >in the world is being used as design images....wonderful persian
rug
> >patterns, Buddhist images. the old testament has a very `jewish`
> >flavor. some of the priests said...`looks jewish`. donald said.
> >`well`. duh. several world renowned rabbis have assisted donald
> >in the old testament, and with help in the many hebrew scripts
being
> >used. donald has hired a rabbi with great skill to do the hebrew
> >words.
> >
> >each page is 22x32 inches..vellum
> >a new building is being built at st . john's abbey and university
to
> >house the bible and many other famous manuscripts. many are
> >donating wonderful images for the collection...it will be amazing.
> >st. john's has the world's largest collection of manuscripts on
> >film. almost everyone ever done. the archives are amazing.
> >it is all going online some day soon.
> >
> >this will be the defining craft project of our lifetime.
> >many people get tears in their eyes when they first see the pages.
> >i have seen it hundreds of time. it happens to me. and, you don't
> >have to be religious or catholic to love this project.
> >craftsmanship, understanding of materials, time. and a bit of
money.
> >
> >i was the first person to buy a page. i gave it in sharlene's name
> >5 years ago. several have given millions. but, i like her page...
> >mel
> >i will put a picture on my website...clayart page.
> >it is pix of donald at our house, with the first fifty pages (2001)
> >that had just come by plane from wales....i had just gotten
> >out of the hospital, and had my disc with by book ready to
> >send to amercan ceramics book division.
> >we are pointing at our books. his in the trunk of a car, mine on
a cd.
> >he has been a close friend of mine for 25 years. i am proud to
call
> >him a friend.
> >
> >
> >
> >mel jacobson/minnetonka/minnesota/usa
> >http://www.pclink.com/melpots
> >http://www.rid-a-tick.com
> >luckisprepaid
> >
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
_________
> >Send postings to clayart@l...
> >
> >You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> >melpots@p...
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
________
> Send postings to clayart@l...
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@p...
Vince Pitelka on thu 31 mar 05
> is this some sort of personal testimonial about a religious
> investment opportunity? shouldn't this advertisement about investing
> in a bible-promoting project be on some sort of commercial and/or
> religious list?
I'm sorry, but I read your post as disrespectful, offensive, and completely
unnecessary. Did you really read Mel's post, or did you just go to the
website and then draw a bunch of mistaken conclusions? Do you grasp the
scope and significance of artistry and craftsmanship as represented by this
bible? Does it really matter at all that it is a Christian text, when it is
such an amazing piece of artwork?
Mel is friends with the calligrapher extraordinaire who is the primary
artist on the St. John's Bible project. In the past, he has been kind
enough to share information about this project, and this message was more of
the same. It is this kind of involvement in Clayart that makes it such a
wonderful extended family. His sole reason for mentioning the St. John's
Bible was to point it out as an example of extraordinary craftsmanship and
artistry.
No reason to be confused. It's a perfectly simple matter. If you had read
Mel's post more carefully, rather than just reacting to the website, there
would be no issue or confusion, and you probably would not have posted that
message.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Vince Pitelka on thu 31 mar 05
> The tone on this forum has become
> decidedly, and unneccesarily, nasty.
Kathy
Forgive me if you think my comment is decidedly and unnecessarily nasty, but
your statement is in fact completely unnecessary and innacurate. Clayart is
a wonderful, supportive, cooperative meeting of clay lovers of all kinds.
Sometimes we disagree or even argue, and there is nothing wrong with that at
all. Don't try to sterilize Clayart. If you see a thread that bothers you,
please use the delete button, but don't get preachy on us. My goodness,
this is one of the kindest, gentlest discussion lists in existence.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
URL Krueger on thu 31 mar 05
On Thursday 31 March 2005 10:36 am, Kathi LeSueur wrote:
> In the anonomous world of the internet it is easy to say
> things without thinking. It is easy to misunderstand the
> intent of the written word. I believe all e-mail systems
> should come with a delay mechanism. HIt send and a bubble
> pops up saying "do you really want to say this to the
> world". Then five minutes before it goes out.
Kathi,
I have turned this feature on in my e-mail client. It gives
me a chance to stop and think "Do I reallly want to send
this?". There are times when after second thought I hit
the cancel button.
--
Earl K...
Bothell WA, USA
Volunteer U.S. Marine Corps 1967-1971
Mr. Bush, Stop this war!
Kathi LeSueur on fri 1 apr 05
Vince Pitelka wrote:
> Kathy
> Forgive me if you think my comment is decidedly and unnecessarily
> nasty, but
> your statement is in fact completely unnecessary and innacurate.
> Clayart is
> a wonderful, supportive, cooperative meeting of clay lovers of all
> kinds..............
>
Vince,
Your message illustrates my point. I made a request for a degree of
civility and you took offense. It's that pesky written word again. I
hear myself speaking in a certain tone and you hear something quite
different. Your life experiences allow you to walk through the world
with confidence. You enjoy the rough and tumble and, sometimes,
"in-your-face" debate that takes place on this forum. And, when you
state something it is with an air of certainty that you are absolutely
right, not just that you are expressing YOUR opinon. However, their are
many who would both agree and disagree with your statement that "Clayart
is a wonderful, supportive, cooperative meeting of clay lovers".
Numerous times people have written to me off line or talked to me at
shows about how they love Clayart, have learned much from it, but
there's no way they would post anything and risk being told to "shut
up", that their point of view is "stupid", or to be flamed for daring to
question a statement from someone else on the list who is held in high
esteem. Others have written to me expressing how shocked they were to be
treated in such a manner after posting a message. And because of that,
we often are deprived of viewpoints that we might benefit from hearing.
My experience from a past life of teaching delinquents and emotionally
impaired adolecents has taught me how easily someone's fragile ego can
be diminished, how easily creativity can be stifled. Yes, you can say
suck it up, get tough, and deal with it. Life ain't fair. But, the net
effect will often be that people just walk away, deciding it isn't worth
the grief, and feeling there's no place for them here. That saddens me.
I believe things can be said, opinions expressed without the need to
personally attack or diminish others. Just my opinion.
Kathi
John Jensen on fri 1 apr 05
Kathi;
As one who has often thought about walking away from Clayart, I can only
concur with your well thought out point of view. Thanks for taking the =
time
and risk to express it.=20
John Jensen, Mudbug Pottery
John Jensen@mudbugpottery.com
http://www.toadhouse.com www://www.mudbugpottery.com
>kathi said:
Vince,
Your message illustrates my point. I made a request for a degree of
civility and you took offense. However, their are
many who would both agree and disagree with your statement that "Clayart
is a wonderful, supportive, cooperative meeting of clay lovers".
Numerous times people have written to me off line or talked to me at
shows about how they love Clayart, have learned much from it, but
there's no way they would post anything and risk being told to "shut
up", that their point of view is "stupid", or to be flamed for daring to
question a statement from someone else on the list who is held in high
esteem. Others have written to me expressing how shocked they were to be
treated in such a manner after posting a message.=20
I believe things can be said, opinions expressed without the need to
personally attack or diminish others. Just my opinion.
Kathi
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