lyla kaplan on wed 13 apr 05
i purchased some bats from a pottery estate in ohio a few years ago, we were told they were slate. they are heavy, thin, and are attached to the wheel with clay (not bat pins). recently i started using them more frequently and yesterday i noticed two cut-off stamps on either side of one bat. on the left side the stamp reads:
SBESTOS
ARD(R WITH A LITTLE CIRCLE, indicating a company name? standard?)
INC.
ont he right side, it is smeary but i can make out:
CAUT
CONTAINS
AVOID
BREATHIN
CAUSE
SMOKIN
i am assuming these are asbestos bats. either the company that made them was already aware of the health concerns or they were not intended to be cut for bats and were cut after the fact... as far as i can tell they don't produce dust, but
should i dispose of them immediately, and if so, how?
any and all insight would be appreciated. i'd hate to get rid of them unnecessarily and i'd hate to be using them if they're harmful.
thanks,
lyla in PA
dkat on thu 14 apr 05
Not all asbestos is bad. Are you near a university? If so, I would =
recommend that you contact the geology department and ask if there is =
anyone there that can give you advice on the matter.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: lyla kaplan=20
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:56 PM
Subject: are there such things as asbestos bats???
i purchased some bats from a pottery estate in ohio a few years ago, =
we were told they were slate. they are heavy, thin, and are attached to =
the wheel with clay (not bat pins). recently i started using them more =
frequently and yesterday i noticed two cut-off stamps on either side of =
one bat. on the left side the stamp reads:
SBESTOS
ARD(R WITH A LITTLE CIRCLE, indicating a company name? standard?)
INC.=20
ont he right side, it is smeary but i can make out:
CAUT
CONTAINS
AVOID
BREATHIN
CAUSE
SMOKIN
i am assuming these are asbestos bats. either the company that made =
them was already aware of the health concerns or they were not intended =
to be cut for bats and were cut after the fact... as far as i can tell =
they don't produce dust, but should i dispose of them immediately, and =
if so, how?=20
any and all insight would be appreciated. i'd hate to get rid of them =
unnecessarily and i'd hate to be using them if they're harmful.
thanks,
lyla in PA
=
_________________________________________________________________________=
_____ Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org You may look at the =
archives for the list or change your subscription settings from =
http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/ Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson =
who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Craig Clark on thu 14 apr 05
Lyla, the concern with asbestos is the extremely small size of the
particles that result whenever the asbestos is abraided. As with most
airborn particles it is the ones that you can't see that cause the most
damage. Fine silica particles suspended in the air that potters breath
over a lifetime may result in silicosis for example.
In the case of asbestos the particles are even smaller and they end
up getting lodged in the alveoli, thereby interfering with the
cardio/pulmonary interface with results in blood that is increasingly
depleted in Oxygen. This leads to a host of particularly noxious
disorders. Painful death in the end in some but not all cases. Of
course, the varies from individual to individual and the are most
certainly anomolies.
From what I understand you can basically eat the stuff (I wouldn't
reccommend) and it is not toxic. It is a respiratory hazard. So the idea
is to somehow entomb it. Put it in a place where the tiny particles
ain't floating about an enclosed space for someone to inhale. Most of
the folks who ended up with asbestosis in this neck-o-the woods were the
workers who handled the material in installation and removal, as well as
those exposed to abrasive dusts when asbestos was used in abrasives.
There isn't any need to be overly concerned with disposal. You won't
get sick from handling it or from limited exposure. Just take it to your
local toxic waste site or bury it where it won't be disturbed. While it
may sound a less than ideal, from what I understand, burial is a
perfectly legitimate way to deal with asbestos.
Just "google" asbestos disposal and/or hazards and you will come up
with a years worth of info.
Hope this helps
Craig Dunn Clark
619 East 11 1/2 st
Houston, Texas 77008
(713)861-2083
mudman@hal-pc.org
Kurt Wild on thu 14 apr 05
You may have transite bats.
Years ago I had and used transite bats.
I think transite stopped being made due to asbestos content.
Kurt
Edouard Bastarache Inc. on fri 15 apr 05
The ban on the use of asbestos resulted in a larger and larger use of
substitution
materials in many industrial processes and in particular the use of man-made
vitreous
fibers (MMVF).
In rodents, inhalational studies show that glass insulation wools and slag
wool produced
no permanent injury, even after 2 years of exposure to high concentrations
(at least 300-fold the concentrations to which human SVF workers typically
are exposed).
In more recent rodent inhalational studies, two durable SVFcompositions were
associated with
permanent lung injury : rock wool (MMVF21) induced fibrosis late in the
study, and RCF
induced fibrosis and tumorigenesis. Other durable fibers are pathogenic to
animals : glass
microfiber E may also induce fibrosis and tumorigenesis in rats, fiber glass
475 induces
fibrosis and possibly mesothelioma in hamsters but not in rats.
In man, the main part of known health effects comes from data collected
among workers
of industries producing these fibers, where the levels of exposure were low,
much lower
than those encountered in many professional situations by the finished
product users.
Even if the relationship to the exposure to rockwool fibers/slag wool fibers
is not clearly
established, the observation of an excess of bronchopulmonary cancers among
workmen
producing these fibres must prompt us to be vigilant and to control levels
of exposure to
these fibers in the work environment. The SMRs for bronchopulmonary cancer
are lower among workmen of glass wool production than among workmen of
rockwool/slag wool production.
Taking into account data observed in experiments (excess of tumours) and
preliminary information obtained from man (suspicion of an excess of benign
pleural pathologies, and of respiratory functional impairment of the
obstructive type),
an attitude even more careful is essential with respect to refractory
ceramic fibres.
These fibres were classified in category 2 (similar substances to
cancerogenic
substances for man) by the European Communities.
Nothing currently makes it possible to affirm that a risk of nonmalignant
respiratory
pathology exists for man with rock, glass, and slag fibers. Nevertheless,
experimental
data showed a real pathogenic effect for levels of exposure close to those
producing the
same effects with asbestos. Certain fibers, as some made from glass, appear
sufficiently
soluble to have no irreversible effects.Others like ceramic fibers are more
suspicious.
The absence of sufficient experience must prompt us to pursue epidemiologic
and
experimental studies, and to introduce an effective prevention policy.
Later,
"Ils sont fous ces quebecois"
"They are insane these quebekers"
"Están locos estos quebequeses"
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/Welcome.html
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
http://www.digitalfire.com/education/toxicity/
dkat on fri 15 apr 05
I still trust my friend, a geo scientist of some reputation, who states =
that not all asbestos is the same and should not be treated the same. I =
will ask him to clarify on why one type is not the hazard that we have =
been taught to fear (given that I have a short memory span if I have one =
at all - I have forgotten the specifics). If I were guessing I would =
say it is similar to the fine ground silica (flint) being a health =
hazard and while a hand size crystal quartz is not -- unless you bashed =
someone in the head with it....
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Steve Slatin=20
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=20
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: are there such things as asbestos bats???
DKat --
It's possibly more accurate to say all asbestos is
bad, but not equally bad. Because there are useful
low-cost substitutes for almost all asbestos
applications, it's not unreasonble for folks to make
efforts to avoid it.
-- Steve Slatin
--- dkat wrote:
> Not all asbestos is bad. Are you near a university?
> If so, I would recommend that you contact the
> geology department and ask if there is anyone there
> that can give you advice on the matter.
Steve Slatin -- Pump don't work 'cause vandals got the handles.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
=
_________________________________________________________________________=
_____
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at =
melpots@pclink.com.
Tarrant, Derek on fri 15 apr 05
Dear Lyla,
Asbestos is dangerous if it can be inhaled. As can clay and glaze
ingredients to a lesser extent.
Regular use of these as bats in wet conditions is not likely to be a health
hazard as long as you don't do anything to them that will cause them to
produce dust (for example sawing them dry etc).
If you are still uncomfortable with them, I checked with our environmental
director. He says they can be safely sent to a cheaper Special waste (as
opposed to Hazardous waste) landfill.
Bag them wet and take them to a Special waste landfill or contact Safety
Kleen or similar waste management company who can dispose of them for you.
Hope this helps,
Derek in Weaverville, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of lyla kaplan
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:57 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: are there such things as asbestos bats???
i purchased some bats from a pottery estate in ohio a few years ago, we were
told they were slate. they are heavy, thin, and are attached to the wheel
with clay (not bat pins). recently i started using them more frequently and
yesterday i noticed two cut-off stamps on either side of one bat. on the
left side the stamp reads:
SBESTOS
ARD(R WITH A LITTLE CIRCLE, indicating a company name? standard?)
INC.
ont he right side, it is smeary but i can make out:
CAUT
CONTAINS
AVOID
BREATHIN
CAUSE
SMOKIN
i am assuming these are asbestos bats. either the company that made them was
already aware of the health concerns or they were not intended to be cut for
bats and were cut after the fact... as far as i can tell they don't produce
dust, but should i dispose of them immediately, and if so, how?
any and all insight would be appreciated. i'd hate to get rid of them
unnecessarily and i'd hate to be using them if they're harmful.
thanks,
lyla in PA
____________________________________________________________________________
__ Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org You may look at the archives
for the list or change your subscription settings from
http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/ Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who
may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Steve Slatin on fri 15 apr 05
DKat --
It's possibly more accurate to say all asbestos is
bad, but not equally bad. Because there are useful
low-cost substitutes for almost all asbestos
applications, it's not unreasonble for folks to make
efforts to avoid it.
-- Steve Slatin
--- dkat wrote:
> Not all asbestos is bad. Are you near a university?
> If so, I would recommend that you contact the
> geology department and ask if there is anyone there
> that can give you advice on the matter.
Steve Slatin -- Pump don't work 'cause vandals got the handles.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
Steve Slatin on sun 17 apr 05
DKat --
I don't know your friend and I ain't no scientist ...
but your most recent statement is actually different
than you previously posted. All asbestos is not the
same? Definitely true. It should not be treated the
same? Generally correct.
Chrysotile (so-called "white asbestos") has a sheet,
or layered structure. This is the stuff most often
found in housing. Most other asbestoses (the
so-called "amphibole group") has a chain, or twisted
chain-type structure. Amosite ("Brown asbestos") is
in this group, as are crocodilite, tremolite,
actinolite ... I'm forgetting at least one more type
here. These types of asbestos have straight fibers.
For several years, the medical wisdom was that long a
short fiber length had differing degrees of risk. The
studies on which these conclusions were based were
largely from the mining industry. When results from
the manufacturing sector didn't match up, further
analysis revealed that one type of asbestos was
generally mined 'wet' and the other, dry. The next
school of thought was that particle diameter was the
issue. I don't know where that school of thought
ended; one thing that was soon clear was that by the
application stage, no one knew how long the fibers in
the air really were.
It is currently generally conceded that all types of
asbestos are fibrogenic, but crocidolite is more
carcinogenic than the other forms. No form of
asbestos is conceded to be safe, though.
And, FWIW, asbestos samples can be wonderfully
interesting under a microscope.
Best wishes -- Steve Slatin
--- dkat wrote:
> I still trust my friend, a geo scientist of some
> reputation, who states that not all asbestos is the
> same and should not be treated the same. I will ask
> him to clarify on why one type is not the hazard
> that we have been taught to fear (given that I have
> a short memory span if I have one at all - I have
> forgotten the specifics). If I were guessing I
> would say it is similar to the fine ground silica
> (flint) being a health hazard and while a hand size
> crystal quartz is not -- unless you bashed someone
> in the head with it....
> ----- Original Message -----
Steve Slatin -- Pump don't work 'cause vandals got the handles.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides!
http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide
dkat on sun 17 apr 05
You certainly have far more information than I do. In my original post I said that not all asbestos was the same. My geologist friend had stated that the government has created needless cost in their regulations because they do not understand this fact. That was the extent of the conversation with my friend and the only information I had to offer. I simply suggested that the person contact the geology department at a local university if they had one and to ask if they had anyone that was qualified to answer whether his bats were a danger or not. In hind sight it was probably a foolish suggestion since there was probably know way for them to know what exactly the bats were made out of.
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Slatin
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 3:03 AM
Subject: Re: are there such things as asbestos bats???
DKat --
I don't know your friend and I ain't no scientist ...
but your most recent statement is actually different
than you previously posted. All asbestos is not the
same? Definitely true. It should not be treated the
same? Generally correct.
Chrysotile (so-called "white asbestos") has a sheet,
or layered structure. This is the stuff most often
found in housing. Most other asbestoses (the
so-called "amphibole group") has a chain, or twisted
chain-type structure. Amosite ("Brown asbestos") is
in this group, as are crocodilite, tremolite,
actinolite ... I'm forgetting at least one more type
here. These types of asbestos have straight fibers.
For several years, the medical wisdom was that long a
short fiber length had differing degrees of risk. The
studies on which these conclusions were based were
largely from the mining industry. When results from
the manufacturing sector didn't match up, further
analysis revealed that one type of asbestos was
generally mined 'wet' and the other, dry. The next
school of thought was that particle diameter was the
issue. I don't know where that school of thought
ended; one thing that was soon clear was that by the
application stage, no one knew how long the fibers in
the air really were.
It is currently generally conceded that all types of
asbestos are fibrogenic, but crocidolite is more
carcinogenic than the other forms. No form of
asbestos is conceded to be safe, though.
And, FWIW, asbestos samples can be wonderfully
interesting under a microscope.
Best wishes -- Steve Slatin
--- dkat wrote:
> I still trust my friend, a geo scientist of some
> reputation, who states that not all asbestos is the
> same and should not be treated the same. I will ask
> him to clarify on why one type is not the hazard
> that we have been taught to fear (given that I have
> a short memory span if I have one at all - I have
> forgotten the specifics). If I were guessing I
> would say it is similar to the fine ground silica
> (flint) being a health hazard and while a hand size
> crystal quartz is not -- unless you bashed someone
> in the head with it....
> ----- Original Message -----
Steve Slatin -- Pump don't work 'cause vandals got the handles.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides!
http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide
______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Edouard Bastarache Inc. on sun 17 apr 05
Hello dkat,
2 types of asbestos fibers appear less toxic as per their
exposure limit
-Amosite,
-Chrysotile
but all asbestos fibers have a C1 designation in Quebec
which means "confirmed carcinogen" in humans.
Later,
"Ils sont fous ces quebecois"
"They are insane these quebekers"
"Están locos estos quebequeses"
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/Welcome.html
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
http://www.digitalfire.com/education/toxicity/
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