Taylor from Rockport on sat 14 may 05
Hey Lee,
Using research is a very tricky thing. I think it is a lot of work
reading through the whole study, checking up on the statistical methods to
see if the authors did it right (you would be surprised) and deciding for
one's self if the conclusions are supported by the science (again, you
would be surprised). All that said, many times it's the people who don't
do any of that and instead claim for a study something for which the study
itself made no claims is all too easy. Check out this paragraph from the
concluslions section of the paper your linked:
"Taking together, these findings suggest that metallic copper may have a
potential application in decreasing the bacterial load in some areas with
a high exposure to bacterial contamination like that usually found in
poultry slaughterhouses. Thus, the use of copper sheets would be
particularly useful to decrease the cross contamination caused by
bacterial pathogens like S. enterica and C. jejuni."
All that to say, Lee, if you are filling Tyco's bowl with water from the
Ganges River or slaughtering your own chickens and using the rince water
to gargle with, I would think of a better way of justifying copper
leaching glazes. :P
Taylor, in Rockport TX
On Sat, 14 May 2005 08:08:06 +0900, Lee Love wrote:
>Steve Slatin wrote:
>
>>I've got lots of copper-bearing glazes, and I do the
>>home-test regularly, and use liner glazes where
>>appropriate. I'd do the same for my dog, if I had a
>>dog.
>>
>
>Steve, this would totally defeat the antibacterial properties of the
>copper glaze. It makes no sense. What we are looking at is an ability to
>control the release of copper into water. This is an big advantage over
>copper metal containers. Just try the lemon test on a copper bowl. I
>have, and the copper metal is more reactive than any copper glaze I have
>tested. If we want to provide nutritional zinc, this can also be added
>to the glaze. Personally, I take a zinc supplement everyday as
>protection against heavy metals like lead.
>
>We may see problems with people changing over to plastic water pipes in
>new homes, replacing copper pipes. The other aspect of the study said
>showed that the big problem with plastic is when it is in the dark. An
>alternative method of treating the water was to put clear plastic
>containers of water in the sun. They said that the sun's heat provided
>similar protection as the copper water containers, but in the house in
>the dark, copper water storage containers was the best answer.
>
>But like I said, ceramic storage, using a copper glaze that is
>specifically formulated to leach the optimal amount of copper, might
>would be much more effective than copper metal containers. Of course,
>the lemon test makes absolutely no sense in this situation, because we
>WANT leaching for its beneficial effects, and also because we are
>talking about water containers and not lemonade containers.
>
> More research needs to be done related to these recent
>discoveries. We need to stop trying to control people with fear. We
>never make rational choices when we are motivated by fear. If our minds
>are open, we can use something that we initially think of as a fault, as
>an asset.
>
> We may be able to use the leaching quality of copper glazes to
>help protect people's health. Maybe we need more copper liner glazes
>that release a controlled amount of copper.
>
> Please check out this article:
>
>Full article here: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2180/4/19
>
>Antimicrobial activity of copper surfaces against suspensions of
>Salmonella enterica and Campylobacter jejuni
>Gustavo Fa=C3=BAndez , Miriam Troncoso , Paola Navarrete and Guillermo
Figueroa
>Laboratory of Microbiology, Institute of Nutrition and Food Technology,
>University of Chile. Macul 5540 Santiago, Chile
>
>Background
>
>Salmonella enterica and Campylobacter jejuni are amongst the more
>prevalent bacterial pathogens that cause foodborne diseases. These
>microorganisms are common contaminants of poultry and poultry products.
>This study was aimed to evaluate the antibacterial activity of metallic
>copper surfaces on these important enteropathogens, and to determine the
>potential acquisition of copper by food exposed to this metal.
>
>Results
>
>The antibacterial activity of copper surfaces was evaluated overlying
>them with suspensions of 106 CFU/ml of S. enterica and C. jejuni.
>Bacterial counts obtained after 0, 2, 4 and 8 hours at 10=C2=B0C and 25=C2=B0=
C
>were compared with those obtained in stainless steel and a synthetic
>polymer as control surfaces. The results showed that when these
>enteropathogens were kept in contact with copper a significant
>antibacterial activity was noted, on the contrary when the same load of
>pathogen suspensions were tested over the control surfaces it was found
>that the bacterial counts remained unchanged or even increased with
>time. The potential acquisition of copper by food exposed to this
>surface was also evaluated. Meat exposed for one hour to a copper
>surface adsorbed residual copper in a time dependant manner.
>
>Conclusions
>
>These results shows that metallic copper surfaces have an antibacterial
>activity against S. enterica and C. jejuni and suggest its potential
>application as an inhibitory agent in the various stages of the food
>processing operations.
>
>Full article here: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2180/4/19
>
>Another interesting article. Copper protects against viral agents like
> HIV-1:
>
>This article says copper may be effective as an antiviral agent and may
>even deactivate HIV-1.
>
>Abstract found here: http://tinyurl.com/awh67
>
>Putting copper into action: copper-impregnated products with potent
>biocidal activities
>Gadi Borkow and Jeffrey Gabbay
>
>E-mail contact: gadi@cupron.com
>
>Copper ions, either alone or in copper complexes, have been used for
>centuries to disinfect liquids, solids, and human tissue. Today copper
>is used as a water purifier, algaecide, fungicide, nematocide,
>molluscicide, and antibacterial and antifouling agent. Copper also
>displays potent antiviral activity. We hypothesized that introducing
>copper into clothing, bedding, and other articles would provide them
>with biocidal properties. A durable platform technology has been
>developed that introduces copper into cotton fibers, latex, and other
>polymeric materials. This study demonstrates the broad-spectrum
>antimicrobial (antibacterial, antiviral, antifungal) and antimite
>activities of copper-impregnated fibers and polyester products. This
>technology enabled the production of antiviral gloves and filters (which
>deactivate HIV-1 and other viruses), antibacterial self-sterilizing
>fabrics (which kill antibiotic-resistant bacteria, including
>methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus and vancomycin-resistant
>Enterococci), antifungal socks (which alleviate symptoms of athlete's
>foot), and anti-dust mite mattress covers (which reduce mite-related
>allergies). These products did not have skin-sensitizing properties, as
>determined by guine pig maximization and rabbit skin irritation tests.
>Our study demonstrates the potential use of copper in new applications.
>These applications address medical issues of the greatest importance,
>such as viral transmissions; nosocomial, or healthcare-associated,
>infections; and the spread of antibiotic-resistant bacteria.
>
>Abstract found here: http://tinyurl.com/awh67
>
>--
>=E6=9D=8E Lee Love =E5=A4=A7
>=E6=84=9B=E3=80=80=E3=80=80 =E3=80=80=E3=80=80 =E9=B1=97
>in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
>http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
>http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft
>
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Lee Love on sun 15 may 05
Taylor from Rockport wrote:
>Using research is a very tricky thing.
>
Taylor, there are many studies on the beneficial effects of copper. Not
just one. Do a search and you will find them. The recent research on
copper vessels in the developing world is very important. The study also
tested for the health effects of copper leaching into water and found
that the leached copper was only beneficial and only provided dietarily
acceptable levels.
The most extrodianry attributes of copper is their ability to control
the spread, not only of bacteria, but also of viruses, including HIV. I
mentioned wondering if copper effects prions, like BSE. I did a quick
search and came up with this:
*From:*
* Journal of Cattle Practise (Journal of the British Cattle Veterinary
Association)
2002, Vol 10 , Part 4, p 311-335.*
> The epidemic of BSE in the UK resulted from the combined simultaneous
> exposure of the bovine to three environmental factors; Cu chelating
> insecticides, ... .... Compulsory, exclusive high dose formulations of
> systemic phosmet warblecides penetrated the CNS and deprived PrP of
> its copper component, enabling the excesses of Mn to substitute at the
> vacant Cu domain on PrPc resulting in the formation of a non
> pathogenic, protease resistant, trivalent Mn3+ PrP isoform...
> ....Research has established that the prion protein is a
> metalloprotein which preferentially bonds onto copper or zinc at its
> octapeptide repeat region (20)(21). It seems that some hitherto
> unidentified facet of PrP’s association with copper/zinc may
> eventually resolve the riddle surrounding the function of this elusive
> protein. In this respect, It is proposed that the Cu component of
> normal PrP (20)(21) may perform some role in maintaining the
> electromagnetic homeostatis of the circadian pathways; where Cu
> conducts electromagnetic energy along the circadian regulated
> melatonin - serotonergic sympathetic pathways; conducting that energy
> in order to activate a wide array of physiological functions;
> sleep/wake rhythms, sexual cycles, mood/behaviour, immune response,
> gastrointestinal rhythms, growth and repair of cells; including the
> growth of tumour cells, etc
So, there might be some relationship with copper in this disease. If you
live in an agricultural environment, where insecticides are used, you
may have lower levels of beneficial copper in your system. Copper
containing vessels may provide an important supplement in this case.
Have you ever heard of a single case of copper poisoning from a glaze?
One single instance? It is the other side who has provided NO data on
the health hazards of copper in glazes. If you were serious about the
topic, you would provide data and not simply quibble about the studies
that support the health benefits.
>All that to say, Lee, if you are filling Tyco's bowl with water from the
>Ganges River or slaughtering your own chickens and using the rince water
>to gargle with, I would think of a better way of justifying copper
>leaching glazes. :P
>
>
Tyler, I mean Taylor, her name is Taiko. ;-) It isn't pronounced
anything like Tyco Brahe's name. And like I said, right after hearing
about the study in India, I cleaned up the copper bowl and set it down
as her water bowl in the studio.
Actually, these ideas about glazes make potters here in Japan guffaw
every time they hear about them. Yeah, when you tell them that Oribe and
Nuka Seiji makes people pee their pants in the good ol' USA, they bust a
gut.
Glaze alarmist have never provided ANY data on the hazards of copper. I
have provided facts as we know them.
Here is a good one for you Taylor: If you are afraid of bacteria
accumulating in a crazing or crackle glaze, make sure that your crazed
or crackle glazes always have copper in them, to kill the bacteria. Or
would that thought make your head explode? ;^)
--
李 Lee Love 大
愛 鱗
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft
Taylor from Rockport on sun 15 may 05
Lee, Lee, LEE!
(first two in a loving tone, third one in a grouchy one.)
Don't put words in my mouth. A Japanese potter can guffaw all she wants to.
She has never met me. Laughter jiggles your ass more than it proves a point.
All that sillyness aside and back to the simple comment of my post. As a
consumer of s c i e n t i f i c studies requires hoops through which I
seldome wish to jump. One can not -- and I must stress this -- nicht, nein,
frankenstein take a study of various food prep serfaces and extrapolate to
oribe glazed dog water bowls. Well, not and be taken seriously.
I happen to like it when you find these studies, so I'm not sure why your
crawlin' all up in my.....as I was saying, using scientific studies is
tricky, that's all.
BTW, nit picking is what scientists DO, them and John Donne. The conclusion
you draw from your latest example is actually even farther afield than the
previous one.
You are never going to be satisfied, Lee. No scientist is going to try to
prove a negative, so your hoped-for study "Oribe glazes don't kill people"
ain't gonna happen. :)).
I am in no shape or form serious about the topic of whether your oribes are
killing people. I don't give a fig (saw some little ones on our tree today,
yipee!). I do take seriously misusing scientific data to try and prove
one's point or muddy the waters, whichever is more advantageous. Hey! I
ain't saying you're misusing anything, Lee, just in case you were wondering.
And, yes I know about the benificial aspects of copper and sliver and B12
and beer.
Peace out and send me your oribe recipies. I want to try them in my cone6
electric.
Taylor in Rockport TX
p.s. tell TAIKO I am truly sorry. Thanks Ree.
On Sun, 15 May 2005 01:43:53 +0900, Lee Love wrote:
>Taylor, there are many studies on the beneficial effects of copper. Not
>just one.
...
>*From:*
>
>* Journal of Cattle Practise (Journal of the British Cattle Veterinary
>Association)
>2002, Vol 10 , Part 4, p 311-335.*
>
>> The epidemic of BSE in the UK resulted from the combined simultaneous
>> exposure of the bovine to three environmental factors; Cu chelating
>> insecticides, ... ....
...It is the other side who has provided NO data on
>the health hazards of copper in glazes. If you were serious about the
>topic, you would provide data and not simply quibble about the studies
>that support the health benefits.
...
>Tyler, I mean Taylor, her name is Taiko. ;-) It isn't pronounced
>anything like Tyco Brahe's name.
...
>Actually, these ideas about glazes make potters here in Japan guffaw
>every time they hear about them. Yeah, when you tell them that Oribe and
>Nuka Seiji makes people pee their pants in the good ol' USA, they bust a
>gut.
...
Cindy in SD on mon 16 may 05
I understand that copper is required by the body in very small amounts,
and that copper released from a glaze is unlikely to harm anyone, and
that it may even be of benefit by killing evil bugs, but . . . .
Potters aren't (usually) doctors or nutritionists. It is not our job or
our business or, indeed, our right to supplement the copper intakes of
our customers who believe they are simply purchasing a coffee cup with a
stable glaze. Customers don't expect our wares to release anything into
their diets. They see the glaze as an inert glass, and that is, ideally,
what it should be.
Cindy in SD
Lee Love on tue 17 may 05
Taylor from Rockport wrote:
>
>You are never going to be satisfied, Lee. No scientist is going
>
>
You got it back-asswards Taylor. That's what is so annoying about this
whole topic. Folks have been told by Glaze Gurus that copper glazes are
bad and believe, it with nothing to back it up. Nada, zilch, zero.
Someone took the copper/ lead concerns out of context and has painted
all copper glazes with the same broad brush. It is the same as mixing up
"microwave safe and dishwasher safe" with "food safe." It is really
sorry-assed "science." :-( ;-)
They've been using copper Oribe and Seiji Nuka here in Japan since
before the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock, with no ill effects. With
all this history behind the work, if we are going to be even the least
bit rational, we have to have some evidence, one study, some data, that
shows the negative health effects of copper glazes like Oribe and Seiji
Nuka. Until I see something, I will go with 400 years of experience and
tradition.
I don't use barium, manganese, cadmium, uranium or lead because they are
proven oxides that can have a negative health effect. My first
substitution in a glaze was at a Pete Pinnell workshop, subbing
strontium for barium in a copper blue/green/red glaze. So I have no
problem in saying no to materials that have been proven to be hazardous.
All I need to see is the data, and not just "Old Wives's Tales." ;-)
Taylor, I only have one Oribe recipe I have never used. It is in local
materials, so is pretty useless to you. I will test it, convert it, and
send the conversion to you if it turns out to be anything interesting.
We need to keep talkin' Turkey Taylor. Tony has been snatched by the
iPod people. He is in an Apple/vegetative state. Have to pick up his
slack. ;-)
--
李 Lee Love 大
愛 鱗
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft
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