Elaine Ray on thu 12 may 05
By the way, putting copper into a swimming pool (in the correct measured
amounts as on the directions etc.) is the best way to kill black spot algae.
Of course, then everyone's hair turns green from the copper in the water.
Also, the old idea of the "American west" settlers putting a copper penny
into their water barrels was probably based on the same. (pennies actually
had copper in them then)
I always wonder if those copper bracelets that people wear for arthritis
help in some sort of similar way by keeping the inflamed joints from also
getting a mild infection.
Anyway, interesting idea about the copper glaze. I suppose an easy
experiment would be to fill two bowls (one copper glaze, one no copper
glaze) with water, set them in the corner and see which scums up first. As
I remember reading somewhere, too much copper in a human's system can cause
fatigue so as you experiment keep an eye on your pup and kitty.
- Elaine Ray
Raleigh, NC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Love"
To:
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: It's not for sale
> Bill, I think copper is a similar case. I mentioned earlier, that
> traditionally in India, it was thought that the copper water containers
> kill bacteria. I heard on the BBC (or NPR, can't remember which), that
> there has been a scientific study made and it was found that leaching
> copper into water does kill bacterial and that the leaching copper is
> not harmful, but only provides nutritional levels of copper to the system.
>
> The problem in India, is that everyone has switched to plastic
> containers to fetch and store their water. Copper containers are much
> more expensive. I have wondered if ceramic containers, glazed with a
> copper liner glaze (something like Nuka Seiji) could provide the same
> beneficial amounts of copper to kill bacteria? It is worth looking into,
> because a ceramic container is less expensive than a copper one. Maybe
> people could be talked into fetching water with their plastic, but
> storing it in ceramic.
bill edwards on thu 12 may 05
I seen the rants, raves and occasionally the snipping
between manufacurers, past and present. Jon made a
valid case, Ron made one and Pacini made another. Each
person has their own desires to provide the most
complete picture possible and of course knowledge
sales.
Manganese - Welders you say are subceptable to
manganese poisoning and thus this will lead to
potentially losing the product in the clay industry, I
seriously doubt that, and that is an opinion. If so,
it will be years and years down the road since there
is so little evidence in comparison to welders verses
potters sharing in the same problems. The list here
has spoken countless times about the use of 'ALL'
products and their potential to cause harm, Chronic or
accute. Education is a 'key' ingredient but if
everyone is this affraid of the trade, they need to be
doing something else or in the least, reading and
actually practicing some of the things mentioned
instead of re-hashing it each day over and over under
a different set of what if's?
Phil in LV. Your long winded rant was ok at first but
I don't appreciate the term you used that inferred
that some 'Negro' or 'Mexican' decent would validate
your fears of being shot going down the road mixed
with a great deal of skewered statements. You have an
equally as good a chance of damages from your own
business or from 'Any human' the web of humanity is
wide and the cultures are vast, we cannot own or
co-own a person, we make choices but we cannot shed
our skins to suit another person. I can't see how you
have helped anyone with all that but I suppose it's
your right. It also changed my opinion of you in some
ways! I still never lose hope in a person and will
continue on as if you never made that point. But it
was sent here purposely and I am answering that the
same. Validity is mine as this point and I had to
accept yours.
Lets try to get the focus back on clay and everyone
can stop looking for monsters under their clay-bed.
There is a scientific means to finding most answers
and resolving them. If you believe in magic then
there's possibly some un-explainable ways of finding
resolves in what you do? Still, we have a great group
here and we have some tremendous minds among the
group! I have been around here for years and I have
had pissing contents with some of the Worlds
heavy-weights and neither time did I find it a
winnable situation worthy of the time I would have
once spent. I could be making better pottery instead
of hashing over old, tired and re-packaged arguments
thats still in the data-base (archives) for everyone
to see.
Chromium - Please. Don't start this scare back up Ron.
Its in the ground, we need it for our bodies as we
up-take it naturally in our systems as well as many
other trace elements. There's a sensible way of
knowing when, how and where to get it. Food, water and
artifically. The latter would be artificial means,
thus that would entail us to keep it clean, the studio
and the air in which we work. Most chrome we use
personally isn't in large quantities and rubber gloves
can be bought and used and a ventilated kiln or
leaving the room should work well and never lick the
green off your fingers. Theres plenty of sediment from
tons of commercial residue floating in the air it's
not just the potters, so either we can make sense and
be cleaner or add that extra over-dose by being dumb
to the process. This is not to say your statement
isn't valid, it is!!! But we have all done this and
each time we start with the worse case scenario and
scare someone new and the thread floats off into a
massive over-hauling of the already knowns in the
archives with a newer twist without one iota of new
information. Add some standards from data that has
recently been attributed to the problems, add links
and medical journal information and it becomes much
more attractive reading. If there has been a valid
change in the use or damages from a products use, then
its time to see that information and the area from
which it came. Until then, it's scientifically not a
valid statement but more a personal one with added
fears that cause and garner excitement. And you use
chromium. Explain that and how it holds up in your
recipes and provide that FREE of charge and make it a
point how your recipes out-weighs the others if we are
going to go back to the pros and cons of materials
where many are listed by book authors and they use
them themselves more safely than others. Those methods
help teach but there's a fee to pay. Buy the book! Ask
the questions. If you know more than your letting on,
please, if our health is at risk your duty is to
provide that knowledge scientifically without charge
at this point! Its good sportsmanship.
I have a multitude of responsibility to all people. I
encourage good communication and the occasional lapse
in judgement is expected. This group is vital to a
large degree to many people. Mostly I have stayed way
off the topics of toxicology because we have so many
in here who run that department well but we all need
to remember, there's a few who do test things and
those I applaud. This is where I say do the lab tests
and you will at least have a little more bang from
your buck and peace of mind. I was told I might have
went over-board a tad on that. WHY? It's so much
easier and less costly if you are fear mongering on
any one topic or sweating it over about your wares.
40+/- bucks a pop for a complete analysis of your
workmanship and you have in some ways some insurance,
understanding, and a relationship between mundane and
science in application.
Clean your studios up. Don't use what we know is
already a threat or dangerous when picking chemicals,
pick apart those materials that we think could be a
hazard and provide complete in-sight when we refer to
them if we are going to make ourselves experts on the
subject but do so without dread and fear. Get a mop
bucket, some rubber gloves and wear a mask when mixing
chemicals. Use your ventilation or get one. I don't
think anyone is looking to make a toxic mess to play
in but there's still chronic hazards that will kill
you just the same that are not considered toxic in the
accute form. Chronic isn't good either!
I can bet you I have had more toxic (chromic maybe
accute) material ingested in me doing housework and
rebuilding this old 113 year old home than I do in my
studio. Its impossible for me to not ingest or inhale
some of the materials floating around and I refuse to
wear a space-suit in 90 degree weather but I use a
mask often and I sometimes use rubber gloves, I have
better studio habits than I do house building habits.
I wash down things often but its taking so much time
being this tidy and all. I am still getting dust in my
nose and I can't afford to die for a few more years. I
have a grand-baby now and I want to see him grow up!
The green paint I just used does contain chromium
oxide. I would have thought so!!!!
Bill Edwards
Edmar studio and Gallery
(New Grand-Father as of 5/08/05) I have everything to
live for.
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Steve Slatin on fri 13 may 05
Lee --
No amount of belittling legitimate concerns makes up
for a lack of level-headed thinking, either. And
copper, in sufficient quantities, can be toxic.
Copper competes with zinc for absorbtion in the
intestines. As society moves away from galvanized
pipe (reducing the zinc in your system) the SAME
amount of copper exposure can be more dangerous. And
in the anecdote you relate about the copper in the
water vessels killing the bacteria, please remember
that bacteria, you, and your dog are all living
things. If the anecdote is correct, the effect exists
precisely because of the toxicity of copper.
Is copper a huge danger? No, if it were, copper water
pipes would have killed us all years ago. Is a
copper-bearing glaze, used for a dog's dish, hazardous
to a dog? Probably not. Tap water does not pose a
strong attack on most metals, and most owners drain
and refill their dogs' dishes regularly.
Well, then, how about putting orange juice in a
pitcher with a copper-bearing glaze? Not so good.
Simple prudence -- dare I call it "level-headed
thinking?" -- tells us to use a liner glaze if the
vessel may be used this way.
Remember, 100 years ago lead was used in water supply
pipes in many cities because it was cheap, easily
worked, durable, and it seemed unlikely that water
passing quickly through a pipe would be contaminated.
The supply pipes in Washington, D.C. are still being
replaced because of the problem of lead contamination
in the water.
I've got lots of copper-bearing glazes, and I do the
home-test regularly, and use liner glazes where
appropriate. I'd do the same for my dog, if I had a
dog.
Best wishes -- Steve Slatin
--- Lee Love wrote:
> Looking at these issues rationally really makes
> sense. :^) No amount of
> shouting the holy word "Science!" makes up for
> level-headed thinking.
>
Steve Slatin --
Sera que ela mexe o chocalho ou o chocalho e que mexe com ela
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John Hesselberth on fri 13 may 05
On Friday, May 13, 2005, at 03:30 AM, Steve Slatin wrote:
> Well, then, how about putting orange juice in a
> pitcher with a copper-bearing glaze? Not so good.
> Simple prudence -- dare I call it "level-headed
> thinking?" -- tells us to use a liner glaze if the
> vessel may be used this way.
Hi Steve,
This and all the other points in your post were well made and relevant.
One I would add that is specific to the above. About 5 mg/l of copper
can make food taste bitter. Acidic foods like orange juice can
certainly leach out more copper than that from poorly made glazes.
Whether or not it is dangerous to anyone that certainly is a
characteristic of functional pottery that cannot be said to be
desirable.
Regards,
John
Lee Love on fri 13 may 05
bill edwards wrote:
>There is a scientific means to finding most answers
>and resolving them.
>Chromium - Please. Don't start this scare back up Ron.
>Its in the ground, we need it for our bodies as we
>up-take it naturally in our systems as well as many
>other trace elements.
>
Bill, I think copper is a similar case. I mentioned earlier, that
traditionally in India, it was thought that the copper water containers
kill bacteria. I heard on the BBC (or NPR, can't remember which), that
there has been a scientific study made and it was found that leaching
copper into water does kill bacterial and that the leaching copper is
not harmful, but only provides nutritional levels of copper to the system.
The problem in India, is that everyone has switched to plastic
containers to fetch and store their water. Copper containers are much
more expensive. I have wondered if ceramic containers, glazed with a
copper liner glaze (something like Nuka Seiji) could provide the same
beneficial amounts of copper to kill bacteria? It is worth looking into,
because a ceramic container is less expensive than a copper one. Maybe
people could be talked into fetching water with their plastic, but
storing it in ceramic.
We have to remember that copper leaching in glazes was originally
focused on in lead glazes, because the solubility of copper allowed lead
to be leached out of the glaze.
Since I heard about the copper water container research, I have put down
a copper bowl for my dog and cats water bowl in the studio. It will do
until I make them some Nuka Seiji lined water bowls for them. Also,
copper glazed work for things like sushi make sense. These would kill
any bacteria before it could start growing on the food.
Looking at these issues rationally really makes sense. :^) No amount of
shouting the holy word "Science!" makes up for level-headed thinking.
--
李 Lee Love 大
愛 鱗
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft
Lee Love on sat 14 may 05
John Hesselberth wrote:
> Whether or not it is dangerous to anyone that certainly is a
> characteristic of functional pottery that cannot be said to be
> desirable.
As we know by the scientific data, copper is not dangerous, but can
actually be used as an anti-bacterial and anti-viral agent. People have
mistakenly confused the dangers of copper increasing the solubility of
lead glazes and have painted all copper glazes with this taint.
The thing to remember, because we cannot have total control over each
and every piece in every firing, and we cannot afford to test every
piece (which is the only failsafe way to know), it is best not to use
dangerous materials at all. No garbage in, no garbage out. Common sense!
It would be very interesting to know if copper is also effective against
prions, smart proteins, like BSE and vCJD. That would be a huge
breakthrough. I hope someone is studying this.
Whether copper is desirable in functional ware depends upon the function
of the vessel. Here in Japan, through education, pottery users
understand that different vessels have different functions.
For water storage in the third world, controlled leaching copper liner
glazes could actually save many lives. It might also be good, as I
mentioned previously, in pet and livestock water containers (especially
if they are not in the sunlight) and also on such items as sushi
platters, where the anti-bacterial effect would provide health benefits.
Hospitals could use copper glazed door push plates to cut down on
pathogen contamination. The possibilities are endless.
"There are no problems, only solutions."
-- John Lennon
--
李 Lee Love 大
愛 鱗
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft
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