Ron Roy on sun 15 may 05
Hi Earl,
You sound like a big dog to me - or should we say a smart dog - which is
even better.
I think you have it exactly right.
Most potters buy their clay because it is sold close to them - and many are
not willing to pay a few cents more to support proper testing - that seems
to be changing.
Getting all your pots out of a firing is an important part of the equation
for working potters - saving a few cents a pound is certainly a false
economy.
RR
>Isn't this what this whole thread, prima facia, has been
>about? If clay suppliers were to develop standards for
>their clay bodies and produce to these standards wouldn't
>the product we consumers purchase be more uniform and
>predictable? Wouldn't our expectations more likely be met
>when we got the bag of clay home? Wouldn't we be happier?
>
>Of course, the standards (or requirements) could be too
>lenient in which case we must let the supplier know that
>their product is not meeting our expactions and they must
>tighten them up if they want our continued business.
>
>And, as in all things, if we want quality we must be willing
>to pay for it.
>
>Earl K...
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
David Beumee on mon 16 may 05
Ron wrote,
"> Most potters buy their clay because it is sold close to them - and many are
> not willing to pay a few cents more to support proper testing - that seems
> to be changing."
I sure hope the situation is changing. If testing of each new shipment of clay were being offering at my supplier I'd be first in line to pay extra to assure consistancy.
David Beumee
Lafayette, CO
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Ron Roy
> Hi Earl,
>
> You sound like a big dog to me - or should we say a smart dog - which is
> even better.
>
> I think you have it exactly right.
>
> Most potters buy their clay because it is sold close to them - and many are
> not willing to pay a few cents more to support proper testing - that seems
> to be changing.
>
> Getting all your pots out of a firing is an important part of the equation
> for working potters - saving a few cents a pound is certainly a false
> economy.
>
> RR
>
>
> >Isn't this what this whole thread, prima facia, has been
> >about? If clay suppliers were to develop standards for
> >their clay bodies and produce to these standards wouldn't
> >the product we consumers purchase be more uniform and
> >predictable? Wouldn't our expectations more likely be met
> >when we got the bag of clay home? Wouldn't we be happier?
> >
> >Of course, the standards (or requirements) could be too
> >lenient in which case we must let the supplier know that
> >their product is not meeting our expactions and they must
> >tighten them up if they want our continued business.
> >
> >And, as in all things, if we want quality we must be willing
> >to pay for it.
> >
> >Earl K...
>
> Ron Roy
> RR#4
> 15084 Little Lake Road
> Brighton, Ontario
> Canada
> K0K 1H0
> Phone: 613-475-9544
> Fax: 613-475-3513
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Ron Roy on wed 18 may 05
Screening of raw materials is also an important aspect of making reliable
clays - not as easy to do as simple testing but once it's set up it is
done.
You would be surprised what you find on top of a screen after a days work.
RR
> "> Most potters buy their clay because it is sold close to them - and many are
>> not willing to pay a few cents more to support proper testing - that seems
>> to be changing."
>
>I sure hope the situation is changing. If testing of each new shipment of
>clay were being offering at my supplier I'd be first in line to pay extra
>to assure consistancy.
>
>David Beumee
>Lafayette, CO
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
David Beumee on wed 18 may 05
Hi Ron,
Yes, as someone who wet mixes clay bodies, I have the opportunity to screen the body mixtures easily. It's amazing and very disconcerting what shows up. I assume it was by your influence that Axner has introduced and is advertising their screening system for raw materials?
David Beumee
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Ron Roy
> Screening of raw materials is also an important aspect of making reliable
> clays - not as easy to do as simple testing but once it's set up it is
> done.
>
> You would be surprised what you find on top of a screen after a days work.
>
> RR
>
>
> > "> Most potters buy their clay because it is sold close to them - and many are
> >> not willing to pay a few cents more to support proper testing - that seems
> >> to be changing."
> >
> >I sure hope the situation is changing. If testing of each new shipment of
> >clay were being offering at my supplier I'd be first in line to pay extra
> >to assure consistancy.
> >
> >David Beumee
> >Lafayette, CO
>
> Ron Roy
> RR#4
> 15084 Little Lake Road
> Brighton, Ontario
> Canada
> K0K 1H0
> Phone: 613-475-9544
> Fax: 613-475-3513
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
David Beumee on wed 18 may 05
Hi Jon,
I wouldn't take lack of calls about providing COE info on Laguna's clay bodies as evidence that potters who use Laguna clays don't care. Most wouldn't know the difference between thermal expansion and overall shrinkage of a fired body. They just want a clay body that works. The fact that many may not be knowledgeable is no excuse for you not caring. It's your responsibility as clay manager to make sure that the COE of all claybodies manufactured by Laguna are such that a wide range of high to low COE glazes will fit your clay bodies. I would never consider producing a new clay body without running a GTS (Glaze Test Series) to find out if the body fits both high and low expansion glazes (GTS 3-10), meaning the COE of the body is neither too high or too low.
David Beumee
Earth Alchemy Pottery
Lafayette, CO
www.davidbeumee.com
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Jon Pacini
> Greetings All-- Over the weekend quite a few others jumped into this thread
> and that was certainly a good thing. John Britt brought in some good points,
> as did Lee Love and the Earls. Edouard, you sure know how to turn a phrase,
> as always. To John H-- thanks for helping to qualify things a bit. I don't
> think all of us were ganging up on Ron, his post just wasn't specific and
> was open for a lot of differing interpretation.
>
> So----, Ron's position on standards got qualified and narrowed down a bit.
> I, like Jonathan, read Ron's post as a broad call for clays to meet some
> collective universal standards, a situation all seem in the end to have
> agreed on as a bit unrealistic. The clarified position that clay
> manufacturers should publish the characteristics of the clays they produce
> and then live up to them, is certainly more realistic. This is something
> that Laguna and it's predecessor company Westwood have done since the early
> 1970's. I haven't checked, but I'll take a leap and say so do the companies
> Ron consults for. I'm not familiar with every manufacturer, but I imagine
> some do and some don't. Publish or live up.
>
> For the Local clay maker whose budget just doesn't include the funds for
> catalog publishing, the type of equipment necessary for extensive testing or
> for a consultant to prepare this info for them, this becomes more
> problematic.
>
> In lieu of published numbers being available, potters should talk to the
> clay maker and find out exactly what they are doing in the way of quality
> assurance and what you should expect from the clay you are buying. If you
> are not comfortable using clay from them, find someone you are comfortable
> with. Don't make assumptions that they are doing testing that they are not.
> Making that assumption is nobodies fault but you own and an ingredient for
> disaster.
>
> Any customer that calls Laguna is welcome to the data we possess on that
> clay. Every box of clay and bag of glaze has a batch number on it that is
> used to track it thru the manufacturing and QA process. All that info is on
> file going back many years.
>
> I'm not going to go into detail of the entire process we use for Qa here.
> I've covered it in past Posts to the list. If you have any specific
> questions, drop me a line. I'll take them on one at a time.
>
> I'm not that much into blowing my own horn and I hate to come off as some
> talking suit from some corporation. Others who post regularly to the list
> have toured the Laguna facility and have their impressions of the work we do
> here in regards to R&D, manufacturing and QA. I do appreciate Jonathans
> post regarding his impressions, Mel was here in the plant on Friday and I
> hope he will share with you his impressions of our set up. I can't think of
> anyone more qualified than those two to assess a clay making/QA operation.
>
> Ron asked what happened to the COE's on the clays I was collecting. I've got
> the data on nearly all the Laguna bodies done. The equipment got taken over
> for other, more pressing projects. The fact that I've had exactly 3 calls
> for any COE numbers in the last 6 months hasn't exactly lit a fire under
> this project. Management likes to give me flack about this project, their
> reasoning is that nobody really cares about the COE's and I'm wasting time.
> The calls or lack there of, seems to bare this stance out.
>
> If you have a question on the COE of the Laguna clay you are using, for the
> time being, give me a call or drop me a line. If you want the physical COE
> of the clay as it applies to your particular firing schedule, because that
> can make a difference, we can do that too. Drop me a line and I'll let you
> know what that entails.
>
>
> Adios y via con dios amigos
>
> Jon Pacini
> Clay Manager
> Laguna Clay Co
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Jon Pacini on wed 18 may 05
Greetings All---Hi David --- I quite agree with you that some potters don't
know the difference between COE and shrinkage---That inquiry I field on a
regular basis.
As for it being my responsibility to make sure that ALL the Laguna clay
bodies fit a wide range of glazes, I'll have to disagree with you. Not that
that isn't a good ideal, and not that I don't do that when I'm developing a
body that is going to be for general consumption, but that's not the way
that most of the clays that Laguna manufactures, here in the West at least,
came into being. I can't speak for the Eastern bodies, I haven't had that
particular conversation with Carl Miller who was responsible for the
development of those bodies. As I understand it, he had close ties to Alfred
Univ. and that's where those bodies came from.
Since I have been here, Laguna has indeed developed a number of clays for
general consumption. But prior to that, most of their clays were developed
primarily by individuals ---teachers or potters for their own use and were
made by Laguna. As these clays became popular, either thru graduating
students continuing to use them or potters doing workshops and the
participants wanting to use those clays, Laguna then sold them to potters
asking for them.
The reason for this is that Laguna did not jump out of the ground 'whole
cloth' as a major manufacturer with a Lab. Nor did it's predecessor Westwood
Ceramic Supply. Neither company in the beginning had any kind of lab. Laguna
started as two brothers making clay for their father who was a potter. They
bought a pug mill and a VW transporter and then started making clay for
other potters in their neighborhood --Laguna, Calif.---one ton at a time.
This was in the early 70's.
The first clays developed for Westwood were by Susan Peterson, specifically
for her needs as a teacher at USC and Chaunard Inst., this was in 1955.
Before Susan, there was no commercial moist clay production, period. Then
some other bodies were added by Carlton Ball, Joe Soldate, Rod Callahan, Jim
Sullivan and numerous others. Once again, primarily for their students or
own use as potters.
The Lab at Laguna wasn't built till 1968, actually by Westwood. As far as I
know it's the first Lab set up by a clay manufacturer, and then it was used
only for glaze development till the Mid 70's when Tom Akashi and then myself
were hired to do clay R&D and QA.
So we're pretty much saddled with a lot of clays that were developed for
their own reasons, are very popular and continue to sell exceptionally well.
The theory of developing clays for wide range of purpose is a good one and
when a clay needs to be developed to fill a niche like that, glaze testing
for fit is certainly taken into consideration. But when you have bodies that
have been in continuous production for 50 yrs it's pretty hard to modify
them to meet some "ideal".
If I were to modify a body like Soldate 60, that literally thousands of
potters use, the fallout would be enormous. It might make it "better" by
those 'ideal standards' but it could also change it to the point of making
it unusable to many of the potters who use it now. Potters who depend on it
for their livelihood.
An example is a situation that develops when a raw clay mineral goes out of
production. Some bodies can be modified with little ramifications, but
others will never work quite the same. When I do the modifying, I try to
make these bodies as much the same as it was, but it will never be "the
same" without that lost mineral. Some potter's are PO'ed--in any event.
They've been working with that clay for 30 yrs and they can tell something's
not the same. Believe me ---I get the calls.
So----- the bottom line is, yes you can make great general purpose clays and
take 'ideals' into consideration, but you can't modify one to meet some
'ideal' when it's been around for 50 years.
Best regards
Jon Pacini
Clay Manager
Laguna Clay Co
-----Original Message-----
From: claybuds@att.net [mailto:claybuds@att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 6:36 AM
To: jpacini@lagunaclay.com; CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Cc: Jon Pacini
Subject: Re: T2 clay & carbon core now STANDARDS
Hi Jon,
I wouldn't take lack of calls about providing COE info on Laguna's clay
bodies as evidence that potters who use Laguna clays don't care. Most
wouldn't know the difference between thermal expansion and overall shrinkage
of a fired body. They just want a clay body that works. The fact that many
may not be knowledgeable is no excuse for you not caring. It's your
responsibility as clay manager to make sure that the COE of all claybodies
manufactured by Laguna are such that a wide range of high to low COE glazes
will fit your clay bodies. I would never consider producing a new clay body
without running a GTS (Glaze Test Series) to find out if the body fits both
high and low expansion glazes (GTS 3-10), meaning the COE of the body is
neither too high or too low.
David Beumee
Earth Alchemy Pottery
Lafayette, CO
www.davidbeumee.com
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Jonathan Kaplan on wed 18 may 05
I have been screening clays since the mid 1970's both by hand and
mechanically. Yes' its a pain in the ass and takes alot of time and I
understand, but don't agree that there are companies that do not screen
coarse materials. Even with the best of equipment it is very a very
timely procedure.
I remember that even in my early postings to the list I was advocating
screening coarse clays. Remember the old APGreen 28 mesh dry milled
fireclay that was a staple for so long? It was loaded with junk, as was
Hawthorne 30, Pine Lake 30, PBX, Narco, Kaiser, etc etc. I used all of
these clays in my ceramic history and screened them all through a
vintage Blue Bird Auto Seive.
I think anyone using coarse milled materials without proper screening
is asking for trouble. Maybe not today, but certainly at some point in
the future.
Your should see some of the junk in OM4 for instance. Just mix up about
a pound in some water to a think slurry and pass it through a 40 mesh
screen. That's you LOI right there, he junk that can cause among many
things, pin-holing in glazes etc etc
Respectfully,
Jonathan
Jonathan Kaplan
Ceramic Design Group
PO Box 775112
Steamboat Springs CO 80477
(970) 879-9139
(please use this address for all USPS deliveries)
Plant Location:
1280 13th Street Suite K
Steamboat Springs CO 80487
(please use this address for all UPS, courier, and common carrier
deliveries only!!)
info@ceramicdesigngroup.net
www.ceramicdesigngroup.net
On May 18, 2005, at 8:01 AM, David Beumee wrote:
> Hi Ron,
> Yes, as someone who wet mixes clay bodies, I have the opportunity to
> screen the body mixtures easily. It's amazing and very disconcerting
> what shows up. I assume it was by your influence that Axner has
> introduced and is advertising their screening system for raw
> materials?
>
> David Beumee
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: Ron Roy
>> Screening of raw materials is also an important aspect of making
>> reliable
>> clays - not as easy to do as simple testing but once it's set up it is
>> done.
>>
>> You would be surprised what you find on top of a screen after a days
>> work.
>>
>> RR
>>
>>
>>> "> Most potters buy their clay because it is sold close to them -
>>> and many are
>>>> not willing to pay a few cents more to support proper testing -
>>>> that seems
>>>> to be changing."
>>>
>>> I sure hope the situation is changing. If testing of each new
>>> shipment of
>>> clay were being offering at my supplier I'd be first in line to pay
>>> extra
>>> to assure consistancy.
>>>
>>> David Beumee
>>> Lafayette, CO
>>
>> Ron Roy
>> RR#4
>> 15084 Little Lake Road
>> Brighton, Ontario
>> Canada
>> K0K 1H0
>> Phone: 613-475-9544
>> Fax: 613-475-3513
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>> ________
>> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>> melpots@pclink.com.
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
Ron Roy on thu 19 may 05
Yes David that is correct - I would not do what I do for both Tuckers or
Axner if they did not screen there raw materials - there is just too much
that can go wrong if you don't screen. I recommend at least 35 mesh or
smaller.
RR
>Hi Ron,
> Yes, as someone who wet mixes clay bodies, I have the opportunity to
>screen the body mixtures easily. It's amazing and very disconcerting what
>shows up. I assume it was by your influence that Axner has introduced and
>is advertising their screening system for raw materials?
>
>David Beumee
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
Edouard Bastarache Inc. on thu 19 may 05
Ron,
what about the use of air-floated materials?
Later,
"Ils sont fous ces quebecois"
"They are insane these quebekers"
"Están locos estos quebequeses"
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/Welcome.html
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
http://www.digitalfire.com/education/toxicity/
Ron Roy on fri 20 may 05
Most of the clays we use are - what about them?
RR
>Ron,
>
>what about the use of air-floated materials?
>Edouard Bastarache
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
Edouard Bastarache Inc. on fri 20 may 05
Ron,
I just wanted to know.
Later,
"Ils sont fous ces quebecois"
"They are insane these quebekers"
"Están locos estos quebequeses"
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/Welcome.html
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
http://www.digitalfire.com/education/toxicity/
| |
|
