dannon rhudy on thu 2 jun 05
It is always unfortunate when one's work is directly copied
by another. It happens fairly often, though. I see work
in magazines by Susie Smith or Jimmy Jones, and it is such
a direct copy of some famous potter's work that I'm amazed
the magazines would publish it. But they do. There is in
fact little that an individual can do about it. You can't prevent
another from making work as near your own as they can
manage. It seems to me that "Bev" can go ahead with her
work and ignore the other potter; can confront the other potter
and demand to know why she is making direct copies; can
wait until the next show and put up a sign that says "the ORIGINAL
such & such" work. Unless the copier is sufficiently embarrassed
that she stops, though, she can't be forced to cease and desist.
Look at it this way - there are a zillion Don Reitz woodfired pots
(some by also well known potters). But Reitz goes right on
doing what he does. Val Cushing once said that the reason
people copy famous work is that it gets them published, gets
them attention, gets them sales. In short, it works for the copier.
It's not worth wasting any of your life worrying about what
another does or doesn't do. Won't change anything, and meanwhile
you've lost those minutes/hours/days and can't get them back.
Tell your friend to get on with her work. It's what she does that
counts.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
smdilley@sdcoe.k12.ca.us on thu 2 jun 05
When I was first exposed to this type of problem I had a great story
relayed to me=2E The apprentice goes to the master and said "hey those gu=
ys
down the road are making tea bowls just like yours" and the master replied=
"that's great, the worste of mine will be attributed to them and the best
of their's will be attributed to me=2E" I guess it is all perspective=2E =
It is
not that you steal, but what you steal, is what you become known for=2E
steve dilley
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E
Scott Paulding on thu 2 jun 05
This is coming from a complete hobbyist, and therefore soemone who doesn't
make a living from his work. I tend to think that my work is fairly
unique, and I'm working towards a consolidated look and feel for it -- I'm
really starting to feel like it is mine. I'm also not a beginner (i have
around a dozen years in). I think I make quality pots that look good.
If someone were to rip off my work, I honestly think I would feel
flattered. To me that would be a sign that there really was something to
my work that made it different and special enough that its getting
attention. Since my work hass grown and evolved over the past decade, I
would also know that it will change (although possibly not as drastically
up until now) more over time. Let this person have their snapshot of this
time in my career. My best guess is that they won't have the capability to
change too much or to break out of the mold, so to speak -- especially
since they are blatantly copying other work.
-scott
--- Kruzewski wrote:
> I know this topic has been covered before regarding rip-offs of
> individuals' work by cheep importers, but what about other potters
> ripping off work?
>
> This truly is a tale about a friend - not me. She has been asking
> everyone what she should do about a situation that has just arisen. I
> know how I'd feel in her shoes but have no idea of an effective way of
> handling it. My friend Bev is very well known and respected in the
> British ceramics community and her work wins awards. It's sculptural
> with a very individual style, very specific to Bev. Shes also a very
> well known character locally, especially in the town where she lives -
> everybody knows Bev.
>
> A couple of weekends ago we had a potter's market in Denbigh which has
> become a regular annual event. Its the first time that Bev and Terry,
> have not had a stand, but Bev went as a visitor, like a lot of us
> potters from the area. Another potter friend, Mary, and I were astounded
> to see absolute direct copies of Bev's "wave" pots on another potter's
> stall. This person had really studied how Bev makes her pots and copied
> it in detail. There was a very subtle difference - they'd copied the
> glaze colours Bev uses but had been a bit heavy handed with it, the tiny
> subtleties were not quite right when you looked close - see Bev has
> damaged retinas and is colour blind - and somehow this affects the way
> the piece is coloured - it's incredibly subtle.
>
> I spoke to Bev the other day and mentioned that I'd seen work very much
> like hers on this other potter's stall - so had Bev, it seems! She was
> furious - but now is very depressed about the situation. She noticed the
> rip offs and actually picked one up and examined it in detail. The other
> person saw her looking and commented that this was work she's been
> developing over the past few years. Now I'm fully aware this could be
> possible - such coincidences do happen, but the other potter lives in
> the same town as Bev, she's a tutor in a local college where Bev has
> taught in the past and lives only up the road from our co-operative shop
> where Bev's work is on display. This is work that Bev has been making
> and developing for over twenty years. Now she's concerned that she can't
> put her new work in the Gallery for fear that it too will be copied.
>
> Bev has taught many students over the years and of course some of them
> have been influenced by her style and you can see echoes of that in
> their work, but no-one has ever reproduced her pieces in this way
> before. She realises this is the result of a lack of imagination by the
> other potter but feels she should do something about it.She just doesn't
> quite know what.
>
> Any ideas, suggestions, thoughts?
>
> Jacqui
> North Wales
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
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> melpots@pclink.com.
>
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Earl Brunner on thu 2 jun 05
That would be us. High of 94 degrees today......
Chris Campbell wrote:Chris Campbell - in chilly, rainy North Carolina - where is the sun ...
is somebody hogging it???
Chris Campbell Pottery LLC
9417 Koupela Drive
Raleigh NC 27615-2233
Earl Brunner
e-mail: brunv53@yahoo.com
Kruzewski on thu 2 jun 05
I know this topic has been covered before regarding rip-offs of
individuals' work by cheep importers, but what about other potters
ripping off work?
This truly is a tale about a friend - not me. She has been asking
everyone what she should do about a situation that has just arisen. I
know how I'd feel in her shoes but have no idea of an effective way of
handling it. My friend Bev is very well known and respected in the
British ceramics community and her work wins awards. It's sculptural
with a very individual style, very specific to Bev. Shes also a very
well known character locally, especially in the town where she lives -
everybody knows Bev.
A couple of weekends ago we had a potter's market in Denbigh which has
become a regular annual event. Its the first time that Bev and Terry,
have not had a stand, but Bev went as a visitor, like a lot of us
potters from the area. Another potter friend, Mary, and I were astounded
to see absolute direct copies of Bev's "wave" pots on another potter's
stall. This person had really studied how Bev makes her pots and copied
it in detail. There was a very subtle difference - they'd copied the
glaze colours Bev uses but had been a bit heavy handed with it, the tiny
subtleties were not quite right when you looked close - see Bev has
damaged retinas and is colour blind - and somehow this affects the way
the piece is coloured - it's incredibly subtle.
I spoke to Bev the other day and mentioned that I'd seen work very much
like hers on this other potter's stall - so had Bev, it seems! She was
furious - but now is very depressed about the situation. She noticed the
rip offs and actually picked one up and examined it in detail. The other
person saw her looking and commented that this was work she's been
developing over the past few years. Now I'm fully aware this could be
possible - such coincidences do happen, but the other potter lives in
the same town as Bev, she's a tutor in a local college where Bev has
taught in the past and lives only up the road from our co-operative shop
where Bev's work is on display. This is work that Bev has been making
and developing for over twenty years. Now she's concerned that she can't
put her new work in the Gallery for fear that it too will be copied.
Bev has taught many students over the years and of course some of them
have been influenced by her style and you can see echoes of that in
their work, but no-one has ever reproduced her pieces in this way
before. She realises this is the result of a lack of imagination by the
other potter but feels she should do something about it.She just doesn't
quite know what.
Any ideas, suggestions, thoughts?
Jacqui
North Wales
jesse hull on thu 2 jun 05
Concerning Bev and her "competitor":
I am currently curating/organizing an event called
LatticeStructures. It involves an Exhibit and
Symposium focusing on Crystalline Ceramists.
Throughout the organization of this, I have had
conversations with those that were concerned about
"giving away their secrets" or exposing themselves and
their work to be copied.
I would suggest to Bev that any hesitation toward
showing her new work in a gallery would be a mistake,
both in terms of her career and her creative spirit.
Continuing to get herself and her work "out there" is
crucial for engendering a foothold in the one area
that is irrefutable: Recognition.
Steven Hill (www.redstarstudios.org) once showed me a
magazine article with a woman's pots that were crass
rip-offs of his own. She had taken a workshop
conducted by him and crudely copied his forms and
glazes, even trying to imitate the spray application
he taught. Her pots were honestly for sh*t, -maaaan
they were bad!... to this day I can't understand why
they were even published. But the simple fact is,
everyone who knew Steven or had seen his pots were in
no way confused about what had happened... because he
has the recognition that he's built over many years,
and therefore his work is known as just that -his.
John Tilton (www.tiltonpottery.org) has a method of
mixing and applying crystalline glazes so that they
result in work that is quite wonderful and very
unique. He has toggled back and forth on the decision
to present at "LatticeStructures". I was very pleased
to hear that he had come to terms with the fact that
his work would always stand out as his own as well.
The fact is, the real danger isn't even in Bev's
hometown, or most of ours... Bill Campbell and I had
a conversation about this once, -about how efficient
the Chinese, for example, are getting at taking "good
ideas" and running with them... straight into the
HOBBY LOBBY HELL of ceaseless multiples. I'd seen the
crap ^6 crystalline cylinders in craft stores before,
but the stuff I've been getting a whiff of recently
is, well, -it's not F-ing bad, ...dang it!!! My
girlfriend works as a designer for Hallmark here in
KC, and after the company sent her to China to view
that end of the process, she came back with some
stories that nearly made me hose my own leg.
Can you imagine a world where everyone is so scared,
that there are no more workshops, symposiums, how-to
books? That's far-fetched, thankfully, and the truth
is, a genuine student or collector of fine
art/craftsmanship is always gonna want the history- of
both the work and the worker. And they'll hear the
truth, either at the time of purchase -or
eventually... the ceramic community is too tightly
woven.
On a personal note (and this is only once I was
absolutely sure)- I'd have to consider sending my 140
lb. dog sprinting through their, quote/unquote, years
of experimentation...
"-Oh, oh,...I'm sorry!" -whisper-: "Good girl."
~jessehull.
www.jessehull.com
www.latticestructures.com
John Hesselberth on thu 2 jun 05
Hi Jacqui,
I don't know about UK copyright laws, but I suspect they are pretty
similar to the US. Here a unique sculptural piece, like you describe,
would automatically be copyrighted on its creation. There is no right
to collect damages until the copyright is registered--a simple
procedure in the US.
If your laws are similar I would suggest Bev immediately register her
copyright and then ask her lawyer to write a 'cease and desist' letter
to the offending potter.
It won't work for common utilitarian pieces like mugs, bowls, jugs,
etc. but for 'original' work it might just be enough to stop this
potter in his/her tracks.
Regards,
John
On Jun 2, 2005, at 2:38 PM, Kruzewski wrote:
> I know this topic has been covered before regarding rip-offs of
> individuals' work by cheep importers, but what about other potters
> ripping off work?
>
> This truly is a tale about a friend - not me. She has been asking
> everyone what she should do about a situation that has just arisen. I
> know how I'd feel in her shoes but have no idea of an effective way of
> handling it. My friend Bev is very well known and respected in the
> British ceramics community and her work wins awards. It's sculptural
> with a very individual style, very specific to Bev. Shes also a very
> well known character locally, especially in the town where she lives -
> everybody knows Bev.
>
> A couple of weekends ago we had a potter's market in Denbigh which has
> become a regular annual event. Its the first time that Bev and Terry,
> have not had a stand, but Bev went as a visitor, like a lot of us
> potters from the area. Another potter friend, Mary, and I were
> astounded
> to see absolute direct copies of Bev's "wave" pots on another potter's
> stall. This person had really studied how Bev makes her pots and copied
> it in detail. There was a very subtle difference - they'd copied the
> glaze colours Bev uses but had been a bit heavy handed with it, the
> tiny
> subtleties were not quite right when you looked close - see Bev has
> damaged retinas and is colour blind - and somehow this affects the way
> the piece is coloured - it's incredibly subtle.
>
> I spoke to Bev the other day and mentioned that I'd seen work very much
> like hers on this other potter's stall - so had Bev, it seems! She was
> furious - but now is very depressed about the situation. She noticed
> the
> rip offs and actually picked one up and examined it in detail. The
> other
> person saw her looking and commented that this was work she's been
> developing over the past few years. Now I'm fully aware this could be
> possible - such coincidences do happen, but the other potter lives in
> the same town as Bev, she's a tutor in a local college where Bev has
> taught in the past and lives only up the road from our co-operative
> shop
> where Bev's work is on display. This is work that Bev has been making
> and developing for over twenty years. Now she's concerned that she
> can't
> put her new work in the Gallery for fear that it too will be copied.
>
> Bev has taught many students over the years and of course some of them
> have been influenced by her style and you can see echoes of that in
> their work, but no-one has ever reproduced her pieces in this way
> before. She realises this is the result of a lack of imagination by the
> other potter but feels she should do something about it.She just
> doesn't
> quite know what.
>
> Any ideas, suggestions, thoughts?
>
> Jacqui
> North Wales
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
John Hesselberth
http://www.frogpondpottery.com
http://www.masteringglazes.com
Chris Campbell on thu 2 jun 05
One artist I know has a lawyer friend who sends cease and desist
letters on legal letterhead for free and it works most of the time.
Maybe
you know someone who would trade this service for pottery?
As much as I would love to say "fight" it is really pointless unless
your friend has deep pockets and can carry through on the threats.
This woman is blatantly doing it right down the street ... either she
really does not see the resemblance or does not care. And if she has
changed the designs just enough ... it may be impossible to prove.
There is no point at all in your friend not showing her work ... that
only hurts her.
Best thing for her to do is to keep making new designs and show her
virtuosity all over the place .. .leave the copy cat behind in the dust.
Chris Campbell - in chilly, rainy North Carolina - where is the sun ...
is somebody hogging it???
Chris Campbell Pottery LLC
9417 Koupela Drive
Raleigh NC 27615-2233
Fine Colored Porcelain since 1989
1-800-652-1008
Fax : 919-676-2062
website: www.ccpottery.com
wholesale : www.wholesalecrafts.com
Cindy in SD on fri 3 jun 05
You know what? When a newbie or a student copies your work, it's
understandable. It's not a threat. Ninety-nine times out of a hundred,
the new person will find his or her own voice and never make "your" work
again. Also, of course, the work is awkward and amateurish. Not a threat
to your income. When an established and skilled artist/artisan copies
your work and undersells you to your own outlets, it's not so benign any
longer.
Register your copyright. It's easy--do a web search; I forgot to
bookmark the site--it will cost you $35 for all the pictures you send in
as a "collection" with your application, provided that you are not
making mechanical reproductions of your pieces--and exact copies as well
as derivative works are covered. From now on, I plan to do this once a
year with photos of all new work. If your copyright is already
registered when some sleaze starts making knock-offs, you can recoup
damages and legal costs. If you register after the fact, the copyright
is still yours, but you can only sue for damages.
Musical artists don't say, "Ooooh, I feel so flattered!" when someone
knocks off their work. Authors don't find plagiarism amusing. Try
reproducing Snow White's dress or Budweiser Beer's logo or Kentucky
Fried Chicken's package design and see what happens. Why should potters
be so different. Why should we be required to lie down and be the
doormat? We have too low an opinion of ourselves. Our intellectual
property is as much our possession as our house, our car, or our money.
If a stranger schlupped into your house, got a drink from the fridge,
slouched back on your couch, propped his feet up on your coffee table,
and grabbed the remote, would you feel flattered that he felt
comfortable in your home? Come on, people. Get a grip. Take that "kick
me" tag off your back and stick up for yourselves.
Best wishes,
Cindy in SD
Kathi LeSueur on fri 3 jun 05
dannon rhudy wrote:
>It is always unfortunate when one's work is directly copied
>by another. It happens fairly often, though. I see work
>in magazines by Susie Smith or Jimmy Jones, and it is such
>a direct copy of some famous potter's work that I'm amazed
>the magazines would publish it. But they do. There is in
>fact little that an individual can do about it. You can't prevent
>another from making work as near your own as they can
>manage.
>
>
One of the other problems with people who copy is their effect when the
two (or more) artists apply for the same fair. This was brought home to
me in a very real way one year when I was supervising the Michigan
Guild's Standards Review. One potter's slides came up and the jurors
quietly and busily rated the work. A little later the other potter's
slides came up. About five of the ten reviewers exclaimed, "They're
copying that other potter." The problem was, I knew who was copying
whom. And, it wasn't the second artist. Their opinion was based solely
on the sequence of slides. Whoever came first in the sequence was the
"original". This created a real dilemma for me. Do I tell them or keep
silent. Afterall, there could be other examples ot the same problem but
I just didn't know the other artists' work. I suggested that, since they
didn't really know who was the original and who was copying, they rate
the work strictly on the merits. But, what happens at other shows?
Kathi
Earl Brunner on fri 3 jun 05
I'd be real up front about it, you don't have to be judgmental, just give
the information that you have. Only then can they make an informed
decision. You could say something like, "well, I know that potter B has
been doing that style longer than potter A...."
Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
dannon rhudy wrote:
One of the other problems with people who copy is their effect when the
two (or more) artists apply for the same fair. This was brought home to
me in a very real way one year when I was supervising the Michigan
Guild's Standards Review. One potter's slides came up and the jurors
quietly and busily rated the work. A little later the other potter's
slides came up. About five of the ten reviewers exclaimed, "They're
copying that other potter." The problem was, I knew who was copying
whom. And, it wasn't the second artist. Their opinion was based solely
on the sequence of slides. Whoever came first in the sequence was the
"original". This created a real dilemma for me. Do I tell them or keep
silent. Afterall, there could be other examples ot the same problem but
I just didn't know the other artists' work. I suggested that, since they
didn't really know who was the original and who was copying, they rate
the work strictly on the merits. But, what happens at other shows?
Kathi
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Kate Johnson on fri 3 jun 05
> Look at it this way - there are a zillion Don Reitz woodfired pots
> (some by also well known potters). But Reitz goes right on
> doing what he does. Val Cushing once said that the reason
> people copy famous work is that it gets them published, gets
> them attention, gets them sales. In short, it works for the copier.
> It's not worth wasting any of your life worrying about what
> another does or doesn't do. Won't change anything, and meanwhile
> you've lost those minutes/hours/days and can't get them back.
> Tell your friend to get on with her work. It's what she does that
> counts.
Excellent advice, Dannon! We're ONLY responsible for what we do ourselves,
and that's all we can really control. Even if we have deep pockets...
And though it doesn't sound like the case with Bev and her problem, it's
good to remember that ideas and inspirations are OUT there. Things are not
really necessarily copied.
I had that brought home to me forcefully recently--I belong to the
self-representing artists' group, EBSQ. Their show of the month is on 3-D
art, much of it ceramic (my greenmen are in the show.)
I was particularly taken by one piece, a sculpture that was made with a leaf
impression, embellished with a human face--I guess I resonated to it in part
because my theme is often similar. Anyway, I thought WOW, wish I'd thought
of that!
Then, as I continue my cleaning, organizing, digging quest, I found another
stash of jewelry I'd made, both from polymer and potter's clay. One
pendant, from early 2004, was a terra cotta leaf impression, with a human
face on it. Um...no wonder I liked that idea. I had completely
forgotten about that piece...
The sculptor didn't steal from me, I didn't steal from her, the idea was
just out there...
The show is here, if you'd like to check it
out...http://www.ebsqart.com/ArtShows/cmd_59_Exhibition_Entries.htm
Best--
Kate Johnson
graphicart@epsi.net
http://www.cathyjohnson.info/
Art, History, Nature and More at Cathy Johnson's Cafepress--
http://www.cafepress.com/cathy_johnson/
Graphics/Fine Arts Press--
http://www.epsi.net/graphic/
Rose on fri 3 jun 05
First I would take this as a compliment that my work was enjoyed enough for
someone to try to mimic it... but I have a bit of a confrontational nature
at times so I probably would of introduced myself and then mentioned that
this work was so very similar to work that I have had displayed for some
time in the local arena.
Truly, if you teach or display your work, people are going to try to copy
if your work has any merit to it... that's the nature of the beast... why
would someone take a class from you to learn a technique if they are not
allowed to use it. Hopefully students have a bit of their own personal muse
to take a technique and add their own style to it... Sadly not all have
that muse.
Rose
bonnie staffel on fri 3 jun 05
This happened to a friend of mine. He called the copier and asked her to
stop. She didn't and began selling the work in his area. Then he decided he
had had enough so had his lawyer threaten legal action. This stopped the
activity.
Good luck.
Bonnie Staffel
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
Charter Member Potters Council
Laurie on fri 3 jun 05
On Jun 3, 2005, at 6:57 AM, Rose wrote:
> First I would take this as a compliment that my work was enjoyed
> enough for
> someone to try to mimic it...
I had this experience once after I put up my website with photos of
some of my work. But the person who wanted to copy my work actually was
very upfront that she wanted to try to copy some of my sculptures. She
liked them and didn't live anywhere near me, she said. I wasn't quite
sure how to answer that, whether to be flattered or say "hey....wait a
minute.."
Laurie
Sacramento, CA
http://rockyraku.com
Potters Council, charter member
Sacramento Potters Group, Secretary
Bert Gibson on sat 4 jun 05
I try and point the way back to the original whenever I use a design element
from someone else. I came across Michael Mcdowell's site and then tried some
of the same design features he uses on his pots. As I am a novice, I did it
for the learning experience and when I put my attempts up on my website I
asked Michael if it would be alright to reference him and his site. By each
of those pots on my website it says "design inspiration from
McdowellPottery.com". Haven't used that design element after those initial
pots till this past week. Hopefully in a couple of weeks I'll have some
glazed pieces to put up and see if I have incorporated the design while
making my own work.
Now a question. I have pots I used "Hank's Wire Tool" on. Would this be
something I might should reference in my description and point back to
Hank's website?
Bert Gibson
http://home.comcast.net/~lazybpottery/
Pat Lindemann on sat 4 jun 05
Cindy-
I completely agree with your thoughts! You put it into words very well! How are you? I think of you whenever I drive past your former house out west of town or when I continue to work on the soda kiln! ...no, its not finished yet- but we have been working on our house, and that takes priortity over the kiln and pots! We set rafters yesterday! I also think of you when I look at my beautiful harp in the corner- remembering the two of us snuggling it down into a sleeping bag for the ride home.
Hope it is going well with you!
take care!
Pat
Cindy in SD wrote:
You know what? When a newbie or a student copies your work, it's
understandable. It's not a threat. Ninety-nine times out of a hundred,
the new person will find his or her own voice and never make "your" work
again. Also, of course, the work is awkward and amateurish. Not a threat
to your income. When an established and skilled artist/artisan copies
your work and undersells you to your own outlets, it's not so benign any
longer.
Register your copyright. It's easy--do a web search; I forgot to
bookmark the site--it will cost you $35 for all the pictures you send in
as a "collection" with your application, provided that you are not
making mechanical reproductions of your pieces--and exact copies as well
as derivative works are covered. From now on, I plan to do this once a
year with photos of all new work. If your copyright is already
registered when some sleaze starts making knock-offs, you can recoup
damages and legal costs. If you register after the fact, the copyright
is still yours, but you can only sue for damages.
Musical artists don't say, "Ooooh, I feel so flattered!" when someone
knocks off their work. Authors don't find plagiarism amusing. Try
reproducing Snow White's dress or Budweiser Beer's logo or Kentucky
Fried Chicken's package design and see what happens. Why should potters
be so different. Why should we be required to lie down and be the
doormat? We have too low an opinion of ourselves. Our intellectual
property is as much our possession as our house, our car, or our money.
If a stranger schlupped into your house, got a drink from the fridge,
slouched back on your couch, propped his feet up on your coffee table,
and grabbed the remote, would you feel flattered that he felt
comfortable in your home? Come on, people. Get a grip. Take that "kick
me" tag off your back and stick up for yourselves.
Best wishes,
Cindy in SD
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Hank Murrow on sat 4 jun 05
On Jun 4, 2005, at 9:43 AM, Bert Gibson wrote:
> Now a question. I have pots I used "Hank's Wire Tool" on. Would this be
> something I might should reference in my description and point back to
> Hank's website?
Say Bert;
That would be generous, but why not just call them soft-faceted pieces.
Course if you want to link to my site or tutorials.........you have my
permission.
Cheers, Hank, chuckling in Eugene
www.murrow.biz/hank
David Heard on sat 4 jun 05
I hope this doesn't come across confrontational, I am trying to express
whats in my head and thats always difficult. I know this is a loaded
question for many.
I'm a student of 6 years, just beginning to groove in my own style, however;
I have to say the sum of my style is the things in other students, teachers,
and pots I have touched or seen through out my life. I think the truest
thing my instructor ever said was "I'll show you anything you want to see -
because even if you copy my technique exactly your [insert item] won't be
the exact same as mine"
We all learn by copying at one point or another its taking that copy,
twisting it to your sense of style till it fits that makes it your own.
That's the real work - I guess I also have the philosophy of it's all been
done before somewhere, somehow - pottery has been around how long? far
longer than any one of us, I think in that time since there is only a finite
number of ways you can make, warp or otherwise create a pot its all been
done at least once ... what I am getting at is I am not sure anyone owns any
particular "style" or "method" of making pots. Its akin to Amazon.com trying
to patent the way you submit a credit card order to my way of thinking.
How many time have you seen painter X painting a portrait using the Monet
style, or ... ? thousands and yet thats not copying ... its usage of a
technique. If a teacher teaches the technique or displays the technique they
should expect others to use it and ... yes even sell it. It was sold after
all when the teacher taught it.
Regards,
-Dave
Russel Fouts on sat 4 jun 05
Jacqui
How about Acid!
Not what you're thinking. ;-)
Fortunately for you, there is an orginisation in the uk that protects
artists rights and I THINK it's called ACID (it's an acronym) but I
can't find the website.
I also might have remembered the name wrong. Senility seems to be
setting in early this evening.
Who am I, again?
--
Russel Fouts
Mes Potes & Mes Pots
Brussels, Belgium
Tel: +32 2 223 02 75
Mobile: +32 476 55 38 75
Http://www.mypots.com
Home of "The Potters Portal"
Over 1800 Pottery Links!
Updated frequently
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president,
or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."
U.S. President (and Nobel Peace Prize winner) Theodore Roosevelt.
Tony Ferguson on sat 4 jun 05
Jesse,
"the truth is, a genuine student or collector of fine art/craftsmanship is always gonna want the history- of both the work and the worker. And they'll hear the truth, either at the time of purchase -or eventually... the ceramic community is too tightly woven."
I think since we are on this topic the record should be straight about where Steven Hill received his glazes. Steven Hill got his glazes from Tom Coleman. Tom's yellow crystal matt and overglazes and techniques were for his thesis. Look at the time line and glaze recipes.
Tony Ferguson
jesse hull wrote:
Concerning Bev and her "competitor":
I am currently curating/organizing an event called
LatticeStructures. It involves an Exhibit and
Symposium focusing on Crystalline Ceramists.
Throughout the organization of this, I have had
conversations with those that were concerned about
"giving away their secrets" or exposing themselves and
their work to be copied.
I would suggest to Bev that any hesitation toward
showing her new work in a gallery would be a mistake,
both in terms of her career and her creative spirit.
Continuing to get herself and her work "out there" is
crucial for engendering a foothold in the one area
that is irrefutable: Recognition.
Steven Hill (www.redstarstudios.org) once showed me a
magazine article with a woman's pots that were crass
rip-offs of his own. She had taken a workshop
conducted by him and crudely copied his forms and
glazes, even trying to imitate the spray application
he taught. Her pots were honestly for sh*t, -maaaan
they were bad!... to this day I can't understand why
they were even published. But the simple fact is,
everyone who knew Steven or had seen his pots were in
no way confused about what had happened... because he
has the recognition that he's built over many years,
and therefore his work is known as just that -his.
John Tilton (www.tiltonpottery.org) has a method of
mixing and applying crystalline glazes so that they
result in work that is quite wonderful and very
unique. He has toggled back and forth on the decision
to present at "LatticeStructures". I was very pleased
to hear that he had come to terms with the fact that
his work would always stand out as his own as well.
The fact is, the real danger isn't even in Bev's
hometown, or most of ours... Bill Campbell and I had
a conversation about this once, -about how efficient
the Chinese, for example, are getting at taking "good
ideas" and running with them... straight into the
HOBBY LOBBY HELL of ceaseless multiples. I'd seen the
crap ^6 crystalline cylinders in craft stores before,
but the stuff I've been getting a whiff of recently
is, well, -it's not F-ing bad, ...dang it!!! My
girlfriend works as a designer for Hallmark here in
KC, and after the company sent her to China to view
that end of the process, she came back with some
stories that nearly made me hose my own leg.
Can you imagine a world where everyone is so scared,
that there are no more workshops, symposiums, how-to
books? That's far-fetched, thankfully, and the truth
is, a genuine student or collector of fine
art/craftsmanship is always gonna want the history- of
both the work and the worker. And they'll hear the
truth, either at the time of purchase -or
eventually... the ceramic community is too tightly
woven.
On a personal note (and this is only once I was
absolutely sure)- I'd have to consider sending my 140
lb. dog sprinting through their, quote/unquote, years
of experimentation...
"-Oh, oh,...I'm sorry!" -whisper-: "Good girl."
~jessehull.
www.jessehull.com
www.latticestructures.com
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Tony Ferguson
..where the sky meets the lake..
Artist & Educator
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fergy@cpinternet.com
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Lee Love on sun 5 jun 05
Bert Gibson wrote:
>I try and point the way back to the original whenever I use a design element
>from someone else.
>
>
What I do is research what the artist was inspired by, who inspires me.
If you go back to his or her's original inspiration, you can draw on the
same source, make things with the same feeling, without directly copying
your inspiration.
--
李 Lee Love 大
愛 鱗
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft
"With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes the difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz)
Lee Love on sun 5 jun 05
David Heard wrote:
> We all learn by copying at one point or another its taking that copy,
> twisting it to your sense of style till it fits that makes it your own.
> That's the real work - I guess I also have the philosophy of it's all
> been
> done before somewhere, somehow - pottery has been around how long? far
Good points David!
We can only acknowledge our indebtedness to the past, if we recognize
it. Paying homage and respect to the past is the main antidote to our
post-modern narcissism*, that kills all local culture.
I had an epiphany when I went to the Tokyo National Museum a couple
years ago, to see one of the largest shows of Jomon and Yayoi work ever
put on. I stood at the place where the Jomon ended and the Yayoi began.
The Jomon people were the first people we know of to make pottery and
they are the ancestors to the Ainu people who came to Japan, probably
from Siberia. Yayoi came across from Korean with the Yamato people, the
ancestors of the modern Japanese, whose horseclans probably had their
origins from the Lake Baikal region.
The Yayoi people brought the wheel with them, "technological progress."
I stood between the two works and was astounded by how much was lost
when the Yayoi people replaced the Jomon people. Intuition and an
understanding of the natural world was replaced by intellect and
mechanical manipulation (the so called "mastery" we worship in our
particular paradigm.) My friend Tatsuo was standing beside me and asked
out loud, "What caused the drastic change in the work?" I responded, "It
was a change of people. The Jomon people still lived in the Garden of Eden."
So, from that point on, my goal has not been to make something novel,
but rather, to try and discover the source that inspired the Jomon
people. It is one of the reasons I chose to stay and work in Japan. If
you listen to the Land, it will inform you, just like it informed our
ancestors.
*nar·cis·sism Pronunciation (närs-szm) also nar·cism (-szm) n.
1. Excessive love or admiration of oneself. See Synonyms at conceit.
2. A psychological condition characterized by self-preoccupation, lack
of empathy, and unconscious deficits in self-esteem.
3. Erotic pleasure derived from contemplation or admiration of one's own
body or self, especially as a fixation on or a regression to an
infantile stage of development.
--
李 Lee Love 大
愛 鱗
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft
"With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes the difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz)
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