Hank Murrow on sun 5 jun 05
On Jun 5, 2005, at 6:10 PM, marianne kuiper milks wrote:
>
> As a professional musician for the PAST 43 years, I
> see a strong correlation between art and music. A talented person
> can let it shine from a local church to Carnegie Hall.
>
> Snip...... But to
> take something simple and then make it into something
> from your heart...that's the true work of an artist".
> Marianne (what right do I have to say all this??)
Lovers, artists, and true musicians must say all that you said and
more. Part of the burden of being one.
Cheers, Hank
www.murrow.biz/hank
Gina McKinnis on sun 5 jun 05
Hello All,
I haven't written in a while, but I have been reading with great =
interest the thread about ripping off others work. My question is what =
if you come up with something, and then later discover that another =
artist is doing something very similar? How would you all address that? =
I know that that happens from time to time, but now it has happened to =
me. I have been doing my pottery art pieces for about 4 years now, then =
a couple of months ago I found a website of an pottery artist in another =
state doing similar pieces. I have never seen her or her work before but =
her pieces are very similar to mine and the ideas behind them are close. =
On her site she says she has been doing her work for 15 years. I know I =
didn't copy her and each of our pieces have an individual look, but our =
work is close. What would you do in this situation? It wouldn't be that =
big a deal to me if I weren't doing much with them, but in the last =
year, my commissions and shows have allowed me to support my kids.
Thanks!
Gina McKinnis
Kate Johnson on sun 5 jun 05
Hi Gina...
..."couple of months ago I found a website of an pottery artist in another
state doing similar pieces. I have never seen her or her work before but her
pieces are very similar to mine and the ideas behind them are close. On her
site she says she has been doing her work for 15 years. I know I didn't copy
her and each of our pieces have an individual look, but our work is close.
What would you do in this situation? It wouldn't be that big a deal to me if
I weren't doing much with them, but in the last year, my commissions and
shows have allowed me to support my kids."
I don't know that there's anything you CAN do about synchronicity of ideas,
it simply happens, as in the example I gave the other day. You can date
your work. Record it if you need to.
Sometimes people are accused of stealing ideas when they have not done
so...that is a very sticky wicket, indeed. No one "owns" ideas. You can
copyright a _process_, as I understand it, but not the idea.
I used to have a site bookmarked from the US Copyright Office that explains
how all that works, you could probably Google it. It's morally wrong to
steal, but if that's not what's happening...dunno. It's sticky.
Best--
Kate Johnson
graphicart@epsi.net
http://www.cathyjohnson.info/
Art, History, Nature and More at Cathy Johnson's Cafepress--
http://www.cafepress.com/cathy_johnson/
Graphics/Fine Arts Press--
http://www.epsi.net/graphic/
Cindy in SD on sun 5 jun 05
Dear Gina,
You are in a different state, selling to a different market, and have
had no contact with this person. You're taking nothing from her.
Legally, I suppose she could pursue the issue if your work is close
enough to hers, and if the work is unique enough, but morally, I
wouldn't feel you were doing anything wrong if I were her. Just my two
cents worth.
Best wishes,
Cindy in SD
Kathi LeSueur on sun 5 jun 05
Kate Johnson wrote:
> Hi Gina...
>
> ..."couple of months ago I found a website of an pottery artist in another
> state doing similar pieces. I have never seen her or her work before
> but her
> pieces are very similar to mine and the ideas behind them are close.
> On her
> site she says she has been doing her work for 15 years. I know I
> didn't copy
> her and each of our pieces have an individual look, but our work is close.
> What would you do in this situation? It wouldn't be that big a deal to
> me if
> I weren't doing much with them, but in the last year, my commissions and
> shows have allowed me to support my kids.">>>>
Many years ago a potter I worked with came up with an idea to attach
honey dippers to the lids of honey jars. She was very proud of the way
she worked out all of the problems inherent in this idea. She made
hundreds of them. I made hundreds of them. Then about five years later I
was living in Texas and visited a potter's studio. There were "our"
honey pots with attached dippers. I asked how she came up with the idea
and she told how she was just sitting at the wheel one day and an image
popped into her mind. Now, I've had the same thing happen--eurekia!!
So, this potter, over 1000 miles away, came up with the same idea at
about the same time (honey pots were really hot then). She didn't copy
us. We didn't copy her. I'll bet lots of things happen this way. People
see a need and find a way to fill it. First to the patent office wins.
kathi
Kate Johnson on sun 5 jun 05
There were "our"
> honey pots with attached dippers. I asked how she came up with the idea
> and she told how she was just sitting at the wheel one day and an image
> popped into her mind. Now, I've had the same thing happen--eurekia!!
> So, this potter, over 1000 miles away, came up with the same idea at
> about the same time (honey pots were really hot then). She didn't copy
> us. We didn't copy her. I'll bet lots of things happen this way. People
> see a need and find a way to fill it. First to the patent office wins.
Hi Kathi!
And of course we don't usually GO to the patent office...and the fact is, of
course, that if you were 1000 miles apart the chances of losing buyers to
one another were slim to none--obviously you understood that and agreed.
The usual copyright concern is "follow the money." If it impacts your
income, then the copyright office is interested. If not, then there's not a
whole lot you can do about it. That's what you need to prove...that this
person is impacting your income negatively, if you're involved with the
legalities of it (never mind the moral issues one way or another.)
At least that's usually the case. There is a well-known artist who does
stylized images of a certain segment of the population, the Amish. She
brought suit against two other artists, one of which OBVIOUSLY copied her
style and she deserved to win that one. The other, however, simply painted
Amish people. The defendant won against that one too, and THAT ticks me off
royally.
Soooo...someone owns the exclusive right to paint the Amish?? They don't
even LIKE their images taken, in any way shape or form. (They, however,
were not bringing suit.)
Artist #2 painted them realistically and with respect. Artist #1, the
defendant, painted stylized Amish folk. Artist #2 lost the case to Artist
#1, and I am STILL ticked about it. Perhaps I don't know all the facts, but
it looks TRULY odd to me. I think some suits are indeed frivolous, and some
outcomes certainly appear unfair.
Inspiration--not stealing of ideas or techniques, but _inspiration_--should
be free. It's a gift.
Best--
Kate Johnson
graphicart@epsi.net
http://www.cathyjohnson.info/
Art, History, Nature and More at Cathy Johnson's Cafepress--
http://www.cafepress.com/cathy_johnson/
Graphics/Fine Arts Press--
http://www.epsi.net/graphic/
marianne kuiper milks on sun 5 jun 05
On a previous email I headed "my Teacher", and took if
off. I just changed my mind and put it back out.
As a professional musician for the PAST 43 years, I
see a strong correlation between art and music,
especially regarding this copy/ripping off issue. In
music, repeating someone else's composition, is one of
the major (not all) manners in which a talented person
can show their craft and individuality. They don't
create it, but take it, mold it and let it shine from
a local church to Carnegie Hall.
My greatly revered teacher Frans Brueggen (much like a
Shaman to many of us) once made a series of records
with a new find on it: 12 sonatas for recorder and
continuo by Carl Maria Veracini. Ofcourse we swooned,
and I immediately ran to the store to get the full set
of sheet music. I played and played, wanting to sound
as grand as FB did. My next lesson came, and I was
deeply disappointed. I told him that I couldn't
understand how the records were so good, when the
music was so stupid.
He then told me (and i've passed this on to my
students hundreds of times) "It doesn't take an artist
to take something created beautifully and copy it to
the letter: everyone can play Vivaldi...because his
crisp exhuberance is already in every note. But to
take something simple and then make it into something
from your heart...that's the true work of an artist".
I hope you can see how this related to copied and
stolen ideas...real beauty and craft shines through.
And she or he who comes up with a novel idea, will do
so again and again.
Marianne (what right do I have to say all this??)
--- Kathi LeSueur wrote:
> Kate Johnson wrote:
>
> > Hi Gina...
> >
> > ..."couple of months ago I found a website of an
> pottery artist in another
> > state doing similar pieces. I have never seen her
> or her work before
> > but her
> > pieces are very similar to mine and the ideas
> behind them are close.
> > On her
> > site she says she has been doing her work for 15
> years. I know I
> > didn't copy
> > her and each of our pieces have an individual
> look, but our work is close.
> > What would you do in this situation? It wouldn't
> be that big a deal to
> > me if
> > I weren't doing much with them, but in the last
> year, my commissions and
> > shows have allowed me to support my kids.">>>>
>
>
> Many years ago a potter I worked with came up with
> an idea to attach
> honey dippers to the lids of honey jars. She was
> very proud of the way
> she worked out all of the problems inherent in this
> idea. She made
> hundreds of them. I made hundreds of them. Then
> about five years later I
> was living in Texas and visited a potter's studio.
> There were "our"
> honey pots with attached dippers. I asked how she
> came up with the idea
> and she told how she was just sitting at the wheel
> one day and an image
> popped into her mind. Now, I've had the same thing
> happen--eurekia!!
> So, this potter, over 1000 miles away, came up with
> the same idea at
> about the same time (honey pots were really hot
> then). She didn't copy
> us. We didn't copy her. I'll bet lots of things
> happen this way. People
> see a need and find a way to fill it. First to the
> patent office wins.
>
> kathi
>
>
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bonnie staffel on mon 6 jun 05
Hi Kate,
Funny the topic came up about Honey Pots. A long time ago when Honey use
was the hot item, I also came up with what I thought was a unique idea. I
didn't like the idea of a separate dipper as well as I wanted the lid to
cover the contents. came up with a pulled especially shaped dipper, shaped
the pot to work with the dipper even when just a little honey was left in
the pot. I really am curious about how close our designs came to each
other. Here I was up in the boonies of northern Michigan with no outside
influence. At the time I only charged $5 for one but soon found that they
were a lot of work. Kept inching the price up to $17.50 and stopped the
sales. Now if I am asked to make one for a special customer, I charge a
whole lot more. I even explained the little wiggle that would make the
dipper work best. I even "invented" a gauge so that the dipper would just
fit without touching the bottom of the jar. Does anyone have a photo of
this type of honey pot?
I have no interest in making these any more as I am simplifying my potting
life, making only those things that I enjoy now or something that will
present a challenge.
Regards,
Bonnie Staffel
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
Charter Member Potters Council
Kathi LeSueur on mon 6 jun 05
bonnie staffel wrote:
>Hi Kate,
>
>Funny the topic came up about Honey Pots. A long time ago when Honey use
>was the hot item, I also came up with what I thought was a unique idea. I
>didn't like the idea of a separate dipper as well as I wanted the lid to
>cover the contents. came up with a pulled especially shaped dipper, shaped
>the pot to work with the dipper even when just a little honey was left in
>the pot. I really am curious about how close our designs came to each
>other.>>>
>
Our dippers were shaped similar to a wooden honey dipper. They were
thrown straight up with grooves cut into the bottom. Really a rather
complicated process that involved wood tools and a chamois. They were
cut to fit each pot and attached to a lid. In 1978 we got $15 for them.
I actually got the price up to $24. But, honey pots aren't in demand
anymore and I don't make them.
Kathi
>
>
bonnie staffel on tue 7 jun 05
Hi Kate and other Clayarters,
Thanks for the description of your honey dipper. I pulled mine like a round
handle and curled the end around itself. Gave it a little curve. These
pulled parts were rather thick so had some trouble getting the dipper to dry
without having a crack at the join with the lid. That pot called for three
parts to be made and also to dry them to be close in moisture content. Lots
of measuring going on as well.
My attitude about coming up with ideas, if I were influenced by another's
pots, I would bend over backwards to change the design or shape to make it
my own. Only the function would be the same. Funny, sometimes I run into
pots on Websites that are similar in concept to pots that I made 40 years
ago. Nothing is really ever new. Being from the Leach school, I tend to
follow classic lines when I make my pots. My bulged, butt cracked pots
usually wind up in the scrap barrel. They are just not my voice, even
though I admire them.
I greatly admire so many of you Clayarters for your insight, talent and
tenacity to experiment. What a great group.
Warm regards,
Bonnie Staffel
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
Charter Member Potters Council
terryh on wed 8 jun 05
aren't we all fortunate? nobody ever patented the pottery
making out of dirt!
terry hagiwara
terryh@pdq.net
http://www.geocities.com/terry.hagiwara
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