pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on wed 22 jun 05
Hi Elizabeth, Sincultura,
I might have misunderstood...
To me, 'thin'`means something like or a little less than an 1/8th of an inch
at the base-sides, for things taller than 6 inches, and for smaller 4 or 5
inch tall 'Tumblers' and so on, or hand-bowls sometimes, more like 3/32nds
to 1/16th.
To me, 1/4 inch is not 'thin' unless it is on something quite large. In
fact, for most things generally, a 1/4 inch is about as thick as they ever
should be, or should be only in some areas of themselves, like for the
bottom curves of heavy Bowls or something for Table servers, which for that
matter are well to be even 3/8ths or so thick tapering to 1/4 or so at their
lips, or heavy Mugs for Lumber Jacks to have their Coffee in. But most forms
taper of course, as they rise...and should, too.
It all depends on what something is for, and how it is for it...
Now, these sorts of 'thin' things tend to be fragile of course...Lol...
Almost all of mine bit the dust in the perils of use, and mis-adventures in
the Sink and so on. I think I have one left somewhere, about 6 inches tall,
semi-globular, a sort of large cup or tumbler. Has a big chunk knocked out
of the side, where one may see it to be barely 1/16th inch at the lips,
tapering wider to be around fat 3/32nds as it reaches it's base.
Not very practical, but a fun and interesting thing to get into.
To throw 'thin', the ideal I think is to 'Throw' thin...to be expeditious
about it...no fussing, no Trimming. Unless it id for quite formal Porcelain
forms which must be Trimmed to get them so and to tidy them up perfectly for
their glazes and so on.
One can Trim down to about the thinness of a Light-bulb even, for that
matter, and in Porcelains, this lets light pass through the piece for it to
be quite translucscent.
If prefering a more loose form, one can not Trim down to make it thin, but
of course must throw it thin to begin with, so that almost no Trimming, or
none at all, is required.
I thought this was what Sincultura was after...
And for which, if I ever got back into it, I would seek the most plastic
Clay I could arrive at, and throw it as 'dry' as I could.
Otherwise, it is not much fun at all...!
Not for 'loose' forms anyway...
Phil
el ve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elizabeth Priddy"
> Get as much height as you can and as thin as you can.
>
> Then leave it on the wheel in place for about 30 minutes. It
> will set up a bit. then make a few more passes to thin the walls.
>
> Thin the top half of the column first and then the bottom, blending
> it into the top. This reduces tortion as you pull through to the top with
> only enough pressure to straighten it up.
>
> Let it set for another hour.
>
> Wheel trim it with a loop tool and then smooth the raised tooth with a
> rubber rib.
>
> this should get you to about a 1/4 inch. Get a thumb tack and measure
> the pot all the way up, thinning again as necessary.
>
> Also, start with very wet, fluid clay. You will throw thinner and faster.
>
> Practice this technique on 8 inch cylinders for about ten pots. (use the
> forms for sketches or minis of your larger pots).
>
> Then go for it.
>
> E
bonnie staffel on thu 23 jun 05
Dear Clayarters,
When one looks at a pot, you immediately size it up as to weight. This
message, I believe, is transmitted through the thickness of the lip. So one
could throw a pot with even a 1" thick wall, if the lip is also 1" thick,
you are not surprised at the heft of the pot. It is all relative. I have
also thrown very thin pots but in the dipping process using tongs, they
popped right through the wall. I also found that I solved a crawling
problem by throwing about 1/4" thick walls so they are stable through all my
processes. Since I have made a lot of utilitarian pots, had to realize that
in using my pots daily, they needed to be sturdy. All edges are rounded so
they won't wear unduly, I also rub the feet with a stone to make sure there
are no sharps to scratch furniture or protuberances that might cut an unwary
finger.
Yours.
Bonnie Staffel
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
Charter Member Potters Council
Elizabeth Priddy on thu 23 jun 05
Look...
a few points to address several snide remarks about my advice
from several sources.
If the poster can't throw a 10-14 inch cylinder that is in balance,
they can't throw a 1/16 th or a 1 inch in balance. You have to
start somewhere.
Phil, all those super thin 1/16 pots are long gone, just a juicy
memory in your book. !/4 inch well-balanced pots will last. Thinner
is not always better.
If you are not able to make a cylinder, how the hell are you going to make
hundreds of pots by lunch time. The advice was directed to the level
of the question. If you are a production potter making hundreds by
lunchtime, you wouldn't have needed that advice, you would have more than
one wheel available, and you would certainly know to use a bat.
If you only have one wheel, use bats. This is common sense, Wes.
Assume a "reasonable man" is taking my advice. I did not say take it
off and make sure the pins stay the same (a piece of tape on the wheel
head and corresponding on the bottom of the bat-or paint, whatever),
because I didn't want to confuse the issue.
I was trying to offer do-able advice. I recommended she(?) practice
smaller cylinders first, which could clear the problem in itself.
Good grief.
I can only rest assured that the advice will probably not be taken anyway.
And just let this go. It is discouraging to see such a piling on over such
a weird bit of stuff.
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
Hi Elizabeth, Sincultura,
I might have misunderstood...
Elizabeth Priddy*
252-504-2622
1273 Hwy 101
Beaufort, NC 28516
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
*If you are an extra-sensitive or easily-offended type:
Remember that what I say is obviously just my opinion based
on my experiences and that I, like most people, don't go around
intending to step on toes and make folks cry. Take it with a
grain of salt and move along, there are others waiting to
give me grief because of their own buttons I inadvertently
pushed...
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
Vince Pitelka on fri 24 jun 05
> Phil, all those super thin 1/16 pots are long gone, just a juicy
> memory in your book. !/4 inch well-balanced pots will last. Thinner
> is not always better.
Elizabeth -
It really does seem like 1/4" is the magical thickness, except in the case
of small pots like teabowls or mugs, which can be quite a bit thinner. For
larger pots up to several gallons, if the walls are much less than 1/4", the
pot seems fragile, and in fact IS fragile. If they are much thicker, the
pot seems heavy. And I have discovered that heavy does not mean sturdier in
pottery. Heavier means that when it bumps against something, it hits
harder.
I have three beautiful saltglazed jars from a plantation in South Carolina -
they are at least 125 years old. One is 4-gallon and the other two are 2
1/2-gallon, and they're all in beautiful condition. They are about as thin
and light as they could possibly be and stand up well to a century's use.
That potter had it figured out!
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
bonnie staffel on sat 25 jun 05
On this thread, I think that we are imagining everyone knows how to at least
throw a proper cylinder. However, when I was teaching in Denmark, I would
visit other potters on my day off. One showed me his wheel area and it was
stacked HIGH with still damp clay scraps. I then was demonstrating here in
the US at a local gallery where another potter was also throwing. He
started making his cylinder and then using the pointed wooden tool, removed
the large excess clay from the bottom half of the cylinder. I asked him why
he threw that way, and he said he didn't know how to get the bottom part
thinner so just cut it off and it was faster for him that way. He didn't
show any interest in learning how either. There must be many potters who
throw with this method due to lack of learning how to pull up that bottom
third of clay. Whew, then they have to deal with the scrap.
Another potter I know throws painfully thin pots. Very classic in shape,
but he will spend at least a half hour or more on one pot striving for this
perfection. There is no profit in this method, IMO. I am also of the
opinion that if you spend a lot of time on throwing a pot, it starts to look
"tired" if worked on more than 5 minutes. I feel that one should perfect
the throwing technique through practice so that concentration can be made on
the shape and freshness of the form. If one uses Cardew's method of pulling
a cylinder, there is very little on wheel or off wheel trimming necessary.
Disregard my 5 minute rule when making my tall pots by the slab and coil
method. Takes me all day to make about two, but the price attached to the
finished pots accounts for the time spent as well as the design of the
finished pot.
Regards,
Bonnie Staffel
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
Charter Member Potters Council
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sat 25 jun 05
Hi Elizabeth...
Do I understand you so say that you felt I had been snide in regard to your
advice..?
Ohhhhh...I hope not...
I thought your advice was great!
It was practical, solid, useful,
correct...
My point had been about "Throwing Thin" and that doing so is not the same as
making things thin by protracted sequential methods aside from, and in
addition to, one's initial
alacritous 'pulls' themselves...I was on a tangent which really was not very
germain to Sincultura's question.
Maybe I was not very clear on that...
But for that method, to re-state...to throw extremely thin, the Clay must be
friendly for the task,
and, the pieces would have to be smallish ones if to be done quickly without
fussing.
To me, "thin" is either remarkably so, or it is not 'thin' at all but
instead is just what something should be for what-it-is. That many things
are maybe too 'thick' does not mean that when t hey are right they should be
called 'thin'...
I was on a tangent about decidedly 'thin'...and one may not Throw large or
Tall
things in pulls merely, extempore, to 1/16th inch or something, or 3/32nds,
nor to an 1/8th even, while with smallish things, one may...
Too...I never anywhere said that "thin" ( in my sense of the term) is
'better'...I just said it was something I was into for a while...and for
some forms it is very nice, and is fun to do, too.
These forms are not invalid because of their frailty, any more than any
other order of 'Art' Pottery is invalid because Lumber Jacks would find it
awkward in some way or too 'light' or the wrong shape or size for their
Coffee or Beer or something.
Anyway...
I hope you were not includeing me in your having felt various responders had
been snide...?
Eeeeeek..!
Too, while I was not a Production Potter, nor an especially versatile one, I
could throw a hundred or more Tumblers or smallish Bowls before "lunch" if I
had started reasonably early, like when most people start Work...
It is no big deal to do, one just has to have one's moves down and to be
into it...and have some friendly Clay.
I never felt interested in making 'tall' forms, but sometimes larger Bowls
did appeal to me a lot...and I was decently fast with them, but not so fast
as to impress anyone or myself with speed. Of those, I could do maybe four
an hour, five maybe...maybe more if I'd set them adside to dry in a little
more organized way
while Throwing the next one and so on... since they required ribbing and so
on at ythe right stage of drying, to arrive at their shape.
If a ten hour Work Day, that would still be fourty to fifty 14 inch Table
Bowls anyway, maybe more like 60 if I staggered their proceedures sensibly,
pending trimming...and after that many I would likely have got a lot
faster! - but I was not doing this as my Work, I was doing it for fun and to
learn.
Sincultura was wishing to make Tall forms, Vases or something, and wishing
for them to be "Thrown Thin" and to be made with alacrity...
This is not possible in my view...even if they may be Thrown with an
aesthetically pleasing degree of 'thickness', and subjected
to aditional sequences and proceedures that are not 'pulls' proper, but
instead, drying, ribbing, and so on...to arrive at the final form and
thickness.
Hardly an extempore which will fill those Ware Boards fast...but, what one
has TO do for tallish tings or light feeling Vases and the likes.
Hence, I was wishing to suggest smaller forms that are possible to do fast
and well, and, to do as 'thin' as one might like, where that is some of
their charm even, with Clay qualities,
providing...where one may get a lot of them done in a day if one wishes.
Anyway, I was on a tangent sort of in my mention, and I did not mean to mess
things up...
Sorry!
Love,
Phil
el ve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elizabeth Priddy"
> Look...
> a few points to address several snide remarks about my advice
> from several sources.
>
> If the poster can't throw a 10-14 inch cylinder that is in balance,
> they can't throw a 1/16 th or a 1 inch in balance. You have to
> start somewhere.
>
> Phil, all those super thin 1/16 pots are long gone, just a juicy
> memory in your book. !/4 inch well-balanced pots will last. Thinner
> is not always better.
Elizabeth Priddy on sat 25 jun 05
I also prefer fresh tall cylinders. With finger marks that spiral
to the top showing the sheer exuberance of the feeling of
the clay climbing up as if by itself. It is absolutely poetic.
And as you say, they should have aenough clay to hold
themselves up, not anorexicly fragile 'objet d'art'.
And the real way to throw thin is to measure out one hundred
pounds of clay into groups of ten lbs. Throw the first ten lbs
into 1 lbcylinders as thicn as you can. Then the next ten lbs
into 2 lb cylinders and then the next into 3 lb cylinders, etc.
Keeping all the pots as reclaim and ending the exercise with one
hundred lbs of loose properly wedged clay and the SKILL in place
of throwing cylinders of any size up to ten lbs into a thin cylinder.
the secret to throwing thin is the secret to throwing thick and any
other way you want to throw. Practice small and work incrementally
larger until you get there. The small changes are easier to overcome.
Elizabeth
A strong admirer of Bonnie, who is one of my heros
bonnie staffel wrote:
On this thread, I think that we are imagining everyone knows how to at least
throw a proper cylinder. However, when I was teaching in Denmark, I would
visit other potters on my day off. One showed me his wheel area and it was
stacked HIGH with still damp clay scraps. I then was demonstrating here in
the US at a local gallery where another potter was also throwing. He
started making his cylinder and then using the pointed wooden tool, removed
the large excess clay from the bottom half of the cylinder. I asked him why
he threw that way, and he said he didn't know how to get the bottom part
thinner so just cut it off and it was faster for him that way. He didn't
show any interest in learning how either. There must be many potters who
throw with this method due to lack of learning how to pull up that bottom
third of clay. Whew, then they have to deal with the scrap.
Another potter I know throws painfully thin pots. Very classic in shape,
but he will spend at least a half hour or more on one pot striving for this
perfection. There is no profit in this method, IMO. I am also of the
opinion that if you spend a lot of time on throwing a pot, it starts to look
"tired" if worked on more than 5 minutes. I feel that one should perfect
the throwing technique through practice so that concentration can be made on
the shape and freshness of the form. If one uses Cardew's method of pulling
a cylinder, there is very little on wheel or off wheel trimming necessary.
Disregard my 5 minute rule when making my tall pots by the slab and coil
method. Takes me all day to make about two, but the price attached to the
finished pots accounts for the time spent as well as the design of the
finished pot.
Regards,
Bonnie Staffel
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
Charter Member Potters Council
______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour
Elizabeth Priddy on sat 25 jun 05
Thanks for the suport (big chhesy grin!)
I was obsessed iwth thin pots for years. I finally
got them to be so thin that they were akin to blown
glass, as evidenced by the shards that frequently
appeared due to using a "stoneware' piece in a manner
that would break if it were glass. So I eventually came
to the conclusion that painfully thin and transparent is
good for glasses and not good for stoneware pots.
I have seen shards where the glaze thickness is greater than
the thickness of the clay. Even cast ceramics is thicker.
But it held together and in my ignorance and obsession, I
thought I had really done something!
And I got over it. It is still a party trick to see just how big
I can make one pound of clay get, but it is not a practical
skill.
The conclusion I have come to is that balance is much more
important than thickness in accounting for perceived weight.
And as you say, thicker things hit harder. Which explains the
holes in the wall where I have been bashing my head lately.
E
Vince Pitelka wrote:
> Phil, all those super thin 1/16 pots are long gone, just a juicy
> memory in your book. !/4 inch well-balanced pots will last. Thinner
> is not always better.
Elizabeth -
It really does seem like 1/4" is the magical thickness, except in the case
of small pots like teabowls or mugs, which can be quite a bit thinner. For
larger pots up to several gallons, if the walls are much less than 1/4", the
pot seems fragile, and in fact IS fragile. If they are much thicker, the
pot seems heavy. And I have discovered that heavy does not mean sturdier in
pottery. Heavier means that when it bumps against something, it hits
harder.
Elizabeth Priddy*
252-504-2622
1273 Hwy 101
Beaufort, NC 28516
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
*If you are an extra-sensitive or easily-offended type:
Remember that what I say is obviously just my opinion based
on my experiences and that I, like most people, don't go around
intending to step on toes and make folks cry. Take it with a
grain of salt and move along, there are others waiting to
give me grief because of their own buttons I inadvertently
pushed...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
| |
|
