Lee Love on thu 23 jun 05
On 2005/06/23 3:13:00, cgreenman3@knology.net wrote:
> I
> don't understand how he does this. I do understand the coil and throw
> method but looking at his pieces I am confused as to how he creates them
> using this method could you explain a bit more??
I didn't see him work.
But if you play with the method, you will teach yourself. Put a pancake
down as the base. You can lay down several coils and then pull them. If
you have a torch, stiffen them up a bit, not hitting the top with the
torch. Put another coil down and then pull that up. Making something
simple like a tea bowl, you can lay down coils for almost the whole
work. Then finish it.
It is not as difficult to learn as centering and throwing from a large
amount of clay. You can even do this work on a heavy banding wheel. It
is how they teach the kids here in Japan in elementary school. It is how
Hamada made anything of any size on his hand wheel. It teaches you to
mind the clay, rather than torturing it with horsepower.
Speaking of Shigaraki: Canadian film maker Claude Gagnon made a film
using Kanzaki's kiln. I put links here:
http://hankos.blogspot.com/
Young man tries to drowned himself. When he finds himself alive
afterward, he goes to Japan where his uncle is a potter firing an
anagama kiln and learns about living. If you view the movie trailer
(takes time to download, but is well worth it) it looks like Zorba The
Greek Does Anagama.
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft
About the best pots:
"They are not necessarily amenable to intellectual analysis,
and, in fact, that analysis can destroy a person's real
appreciation and understanding of a piece."
-- Warren MacKenzie
Taylor from Rockport on thu 23 jun 05
Hey Lee and other coil-and-throw wannabes:
One can also see a Thai version of coil and throw that just might blow
your socks off. One one of Louis Katz's Thai tapes is a mortar thrower
using a mechanized wheel. The fella coils up the general form in a matter
of SECONDS with only one sausage of clay and then throws the mortar
shape. Absolutely facinating. I want Louis to show me how to do this.
I'll ask him as soon as he gets back.....from Thailand.
Taylor, in Rockport TX
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:11:23 +0900, Lee Love wrote:
...>But if you play with the method, you will teach yourself. Put a pancake
>down as the base. You can lay down several coils and then pull them. If
>you have a torch, stiffen them up a bit, not hitting the top with the
>torch. Put another coil down and then pull that up. Making something
>simple like a tea bowl, you can lay down coils for almost the whole
>work. Then finish it.
...
Kate Johnson on fri 24 jun 05
>
>
> But if you play with the method, you will teach yourself. Put a pancake
> down as the base. You can lay down several coils and then pull them. If
> you have a torch, stiffen them up a bit, not hitting the top with the
> torch. Put another coil down and then pull that up. Making something
> simple like a tea bowl, you can lay down coils for almost the whole
> work. Then finish it.
So I'm fascinated with this technique, too, as it seems as if it might be
easier for my little arthritic fingers to deal with the process involved.
Any hints on how to make decent-sized, long-enough, semi-uniform coils? One
thing I've done is to make a fat, long slab instead, which seems to work
pretty well for part of the process.
And Lee, this can be done on a banding wheel? Now I'll have to try that,
too! I have a nice heavy metal one...
Best--
Kate Johnson
graphicart@epsi.net
http://www.cathyjohnson.info/
Art, History, Nature and More at Cathy Johnson's Cafepress--
http://www.cafepress.com/cathy_johnson/
Graphics/Fine Arts Press--
http://www.epsi.net/graphic/
Fredrick Paget on sat 25 jun 05
>
>Any hints on how to make decent-sized, long-enough, semi-uniform coils? One
>thing I've done is to make a fat, long slab instead, which seems to work
>pretty well for part of the process.
>And Lee, this can be done on a banding wheel?
>
>Kate Johnson
I saw this being done a couple of different ways in China. One place
they pounded out a long slab and trimmed it to a curved shape and
wrapped it around a wooden barrel like form . After putting on a slab
bottom and paddling the thing together the wood form was pulled out
and the large planter size pot put out in the sun to stiffen up. A
fat coil was then put on to make a stout rim.
At another place they made a shallow bottom section, These were
already made when we got there so I don't know how they made them.
These were stiffening up in the background, The master would take one
and place it on a pedestal. On the table he rolls out a fat coil
about 5 times thicker than the wall section and a couple of feet
long. He takes this and applies it to the bottom section with a
tricky two hand motion that compresses the clay and smears it on to
the bottom section while he is walking around the pedestal backwards.
Result after a couple of walk arounds is about a 4 inch gain in
height, I think this works best with a fixed pedestal and not a loose
banding wheel. I have a quicktime .avi movie shot of this and will
try to put it up on the flickr site,
http://www.flickr.com/photos/clayart
--
From Fred &Nan Paget, Marin County,
California, USA
fredrick@well.com
Vince Pitelka on sat 25 jun 05
The "coil and throw" method cannot be done on a banding wheel. A banding
wheel is a wonderful rotating platform for coil construction, but the
coil-and-throw technique implies that you are adding a coil and then
throwing in a conventional fashion, and that obviously requires a kick wheel
or power wheel. You can rotate a banding wheel and smooth the surface of a
coiled pot to make it look almost thrown (why would anyone want to do
that?), but it isn't really coil thrown unless the coils really are
"thrown,"
Rolling even coils is just a matter of practice. For coil construction, I
like to use hand-rolled coils, and I can roll them fast enough to keep up
with an extruder. But if you are coil-throwing and have access to an
extruder, it might be a good idea to extrude the coils so that each course
of coils will give an even addition to wall height.
If you are hand-rolled coils and can't get them quite even in the rolling,
then go ahead and add them and thrown them, and trim a bit off the top of
the thrown wall to even it up.
As another option, roll a thick slab with your slab roller, and use a ruler
to cut it to even strips, and use those as coils. Or, if you don't have a
slab roller, use several thick dowels as spacers under either end of your
rolling pin, and roll a thick even slab, and use a ruler to cut it into
strips.
Years ago, CM ran a story on the Thrapsanon potters of Crete, who make the
big "pithoi" (or one "pithos") for storing wine, olive oil, grain, etc.
They look to be about 30 gallons. These potters have been using the same
technique for 4000 years. The potter has a row of crude wheels built into
an earthen bank. Below the bank, there are several pegs protruding from the
wheel shaft, and an unfortunate apprentice lays on her/his side all day
pedaling these pegs to provide the rotary motion.
The potter starts at one end of the row in the morning and lays down a
bottom slab, adds a thick coil, and throws it to create a 10"-tall cylinder
with a slight outward flare. He then moves to the second wheel, and on down
the row to the last wheel (it seems to me that there were about ten wheels).
By then, the first one is stiff enough to add another thick coil, and throw
another 8 or 10". He proceeds on down the row and back to the first one in
repeated steps, and by the end of the day has ten giant pots. That's a good
day's work!
Interestingly, in this case the potter embellishes the joints with textured
bands of clay, and that is part of the distinct look of pithoi going back to
Minoan times. Anyone who does coil throwing knows that it can be hard to
completely conceal the joint, so an alternative is to emphasize and
celebrate the joint.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Snail Scott on sun 26 jun 05
At 06:32 PM 6/24/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Any hints on how to make decent-sized, long-enough, semi-uniform coils? One
>thing I've done is to make a fat, long slab instead, which seems to work
>pretty well for part of the process.
I've never seen the need to make round coils, and long
narrow slabs are a popular choice for many people who
build-and/or-throw. Some people are convinced that
coiling can only be done with round coils; I don't know
why. Why make more joints than necessary? A flattened
coil or narrow slab is often the best choice, NOT some
kind of cheat or a violation of the so-called 'rules'.
Round coils have their uses, but not for everything.
-Snail
bonnie staffel on sun 26 jun 05
Kate, to answer your question about making a long coil by hand, it really is
not important as to how perfect it is at that point. The process really
calls for the coil to be uniform in moisture content with no air bubbles.
The coil centering gives you the perfection of a thrown pot. I suggest the
coil be 1 1/2" to 2" in dia. which can rise about 5" high with each pull. I
find that softer clay works easier especially as it cuts down on the drag of
throwing on top of the previous thrown coil. One attaches each coil by
doing the usual smushing down on to the previous coil as one learned in
beginner hand building. I make my long coil by taking the well kneaded ball
of clay, then using the taper method such as how you prepare the clay for
pulling a handle, except one does the slap and drag bit to elongate the
taper, until you get a fat coil. Then you can roll the coil to the desired
diameter. My suggestion here is to dampen your rolling surface so that the
coil retains its original moisture.
A wall hand extruder can be used for the purpose of making these coils as
well.
Regards,
Bonnie Staffel
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/contactlinks.htm
Video or DVD Throwing with Coils and Slabs
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
Charter Member Potters Council
Vince Pitelka on sun 26 jun 05
> Seeing is believing. *haha!* Check out Mike's water jar made on a shimpo
> banding wheel like mine:
Lee -
I guess it gets down to definitions again. Just what is "throwing?"
Ashanti potters in Ghana coil-build with the pot sitting on the ground,
their backs bent double as they walk very quickly backwards around the pot
smoothing the rim with a moist cloth. The results look wheel-thrown.
I don't claim to have the definition, so I'd love to hear what you and other
people think about this. To me, throwing requires a wheel that provides
sufficient motive force to allow you to really move the clay around as the
wheel spins. I have three large heavy Shimpo banding wheels that I use for
coil construction, and I can see how they could provide enough inertial
momentum to throw small pots. But for larger pots, it wouldn't really be
throwing, because you would only be smoothing the surface, rather than
really moving the clay. If you tried to move clay and raise the wall of a
large pot, the banding wheel would stop immediately. I often spin my large
coil pots on the banding wheel to smooth the rim or shoulder, and I know
exactly what can be accomplished with the momentum that is available.
But then, the world is filled with amazing techniques unknown to me.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Vince Pitelka on sun 26 jun 05
> Seeing is believing. *haha!* Check out Mike's water jar made on a shimpo
> banding wheel like mine: http://karatsupots.blogspot.com/
Lee -
Seeing is observing that that pot is coil-built in a classical fashion on a
banding wheel, and then when almost completed some surface pattern similar
to throwing marks seems to have been introduced while the wheel is spinning.
You're not really calling that throwing, are you?
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Lee Love on sun 26 jun 05
On 2005/06/26 14:33:25, snail@mindspring.com wrote:
> I've never seen the need to make round coils,
Mine are hardly uniform nor perfectly round.
For me, the whole point of using the coils is to add some
non-uniformity and life to the piece.
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft
Lee Love on sun 26 jun 05
On 2005/06/26 5:34:28, vpitelka@dtccom.net wrote:
> The "coil and throw" method cannot be done on a banding wheel.
Seeing is believing. *haha!* Check out Mike's water jar made on a shimpo
banding wheel like mine:
http://karatsupots.blogspot.com/
Not all banding wheels are made equal. I hump throw tea bowls on mine
and trim too (it has holes you can use a turing stick with it.) Kids in
the Mashiko school system learn to throw on them.
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft
About the best pots:
"They are not necessarily amenable to intellectual analysis, and, in
fact, that analysis can destroy a person's real appreciation and
understanding of a piece."
-- Warren MacKenzie
DEBBYGrant@AOL.COM on mon 27 jun 05
Just to clear up some definitions. The word throw is old English for turn
and has come down in modern English to still mean turn when applied to making
pottery. Therefor, I suppose you can say that any lump of clay that is "turned"
on a wheel or banding wheel can be called thrown.
Debby Grant in N.H.
Kate Johnson on mon 27 jun 05
> Lee -
> I guess it gets down to definitions again. Just what is "throwing?"
Semantics get a bit tricky here, don't they? So why, exactly, is centering
a lump of clay, opening it, and raising the walls "throwing," either?
I know how to throw a baseball, a skeet, a party, and a fit, but not a bit
sure why that particular combination of actions is known as "throwing a
pot"--does anyone have a clue?
Best--
Kate Johnson
graphicart@epsi.net
http://www.cathyjohnson.info/
Art, History, Nature and More at Cathy Johnson's Cafepress--
http://www.cafepress.com/cathy_johnson/
Graphics/Fine Arts Press--
http://www.epsi.net/graphic/
clennell on mon 27 jun 05
Vince wrote:
> The "coil and throw" method cannot be done on a banding wheel. A banding
> wheel is a wonderful rotating platform for coil construction, but the
> coil-and-throw technique implies that you are adding a coil and then
> throwing in a conventional fashion, and that obviously requires a kick wheel
> or power wheel. You can rotate a banding wheel and smooth the surface of a
> coiled pot to make it look almost thrown (why would anyone want to do
> that?), but it isn't really coil thrown unless the coils really are
> "thrown,"
Vince: The wonderful pots of Australian potter Chester Nealie are coils
thrown on a banding wheel. I think it is a bit of paddling and some throwing
obviously very soft clay.
I can see why you might want to make a coil pot look thrown- I think you
have slowed down the process and can give some looseness to the piece that
might appear machine made fresh from the wheel. Some of us have tried to go
back to methods of throwing that make us struggle to regain that innocense
of early years. All my cups and bowls are made on the treadle wheel because
they are more playful and the right weight. My electric wheel thrown cups
are too light. There was this talk of throwing thin- I prefer a piece to be
the right weight and in some cases that may be a tad on the heavy side. With
the all the potters wanting to be Asian and making teabowls I had collected
a few and most recently a Jeff Oestreich and the thing is too light and I
burn my hands. An earlier one of his before faceting is absolutely perfect
weight.
Last summer in japan I tried a Korean kick wheel and it was really just an
oversized banding wheel. 3 or 4 cups and I was exhausted.
I do agree with you that to throw on a banding wheel is really making life
difficult for yourself but hey isn't that what potters are so good at.?
cheers,
Tony
Tony and Sheila Clennell
Sour Cherry Pottery
4545 King Street
Beamsville, Ontario
CANADA L0R 1B1
http://www.sourcherrypottery.com
http://www.sourcherrypottery.com/current_news/news_letter.html
Vince Pitelka on mon 27 jun 05
> I hump throw tea bowls on a banding wheel like Mike's, Vince.
> In the Mashiko school system, it is what they teach throwing on.
Lee, this all started out as a discussion of the coil-throw method. I
already acknowledged that you can throw small items on a heavy banding wheel
(although I am not sure why anyone would want to subject themselves to
that). The whole point is that you cannot truly "throw" large forms on a
banding wheel because it simply will not develop the necessary inertia. The
coil-throw method is generally used for creating forms larger than can
easily be made by conventional one-piece throwing, and thus it implies big
pots.
Lots of people use heavy banding wheels for coil-building, and some
coil-builders smooth their coil pots on the banding wheel in such a way that
it creates what look like "throwing marks." That does not mean that the pot
is thown.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Vince Pitelka on tue 28 jun 05
> It always amuses me when people say that what you do every day,
> can't be done.
> There is no point in arguing, you just waste your breath.
Lee -
Don't be insulting. It isn't a question of argueing. It is a question of
explaining. All you have to do is explain to me how those coil pots can be
considered thrown. That is not an unreasonable request. I went to the
website and I saw pots that were entirely coil-built, and then the surface
was finalized in the fashion of a thrown pot, leaving surface markings that
looked like throwing marks. That's not a thrown pot, unless the form is
significantly raised and expanded by the "throwing action." From all you
have said it just seems to me that you are stretching the interpretation of
the term "throwing" in a way that just confuses the issue. Please tell me
how those pots can be considered "thrown."
Thanks in advance for your explanation -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Vince Pitelka on tue 28 jun 05
> Just to clear up some definitions. The word throw is old English for turn
> and has come down in modern English to still mean turn when applied to
> making
> pottery. Therefor, I suppose you can say that any lump of clay that is
> "turned"
> on a wheel or banding wheel can be called thrown.
Debbie -
But as we all know, that is not how the definition has evolved, so this
really doesn't "clear up" anything. In submitting a pot for an exhibition,
when do we call it "thrown?" I think we would all agree that in order to be
called "thrown," it must be formed primarily by lifting and stretching the
walls with the hands and/or tools as the clay rotates on some kind of wheel.
The point that I am so stubbornly defending is that you need a rotating
wheel that develops considerable force and inertia in order to accomplish
that. A coil pot made on a banding wheel is not "thrown," by any stretch of
the definition.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Lee Love on tue 28 jun 05
On 2005/06/28 22:25:36, vpitelka@dtccom.net wrote:
> The point that I am so stubbornly defending is that you need a rotating
> wheel that develops considerable force and inertia in order to
accomplish
> that. A coil pot made on a banding wheel is not "thrown," by any
stretch of
> the definition.
It always amuses me when people say that what you do every day,
can't be done.
There is no point in arguing, you just waste your breath.
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
Lee Love on tue 28 jun 05
clennell wrote:
>thrown on a banding wheel. I think it is a bit of paddling and some throwing
>obviously very soft clay.
>
Soft clay is the key. I made my first pots in a hand building class at
UofMn.. My wife Jean bought me a lazy susan I used as a banding wheel. I
think the lazy susan was a craft project, where some lady inlayed tiles
into the wooden wheel to finish it. The fish pot is in storage in St.
Paul, along with the life sized Hawaiian shirt I made right after it.
Anyway, I burnished it with iron oxide. Was about 2 feet tall and had
scraffitoed fish on it. I still use the fish motif, but with inlay
instead of scraffito. My Zen name is Dairin, which comes from a "Big Fish."
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft
About the best pots:
"They are not necessarily amenable to intellectual analysis,
and, in fact, that analysis can destroy a person's real
appreciation and understanding of a piece."
-- Warren MacKenzie
Lee Love on tue 28 jun 05
On 2005/06/27 3:10:13, vpitelka@dtccom.net wrote:
> You're
> not really calling that throwing, are you?
http://karatsupots.blogspot.com/
I hump throw tea bowls on a banding wheel like Mike's, Vince.
In the Mashiko school system, it is what they teach throwing on.
Lee In Mashiko, Japan.
Lee Love on wed 29 jun 05
clennell wrote:
>Last summer in japan I tried a Korean kick wheel and it was really just an
>oversized banding wheel. 3 or 4 cups and I was exhausted.
>I do agree with you that to throw on a banding wheel is really making life
>difficult for yourself but hey isn't that what potters are so good at.?
>
>
*Haha!* Oversized banding wheel indeed! My keiyaki Korean style
kickwheel is my single most important tool (more important than working
exclusively with a wood fired kiln.) It has taught me so much.
In learning to use one, it takes time to unlearn what we learned on
heavy, high momentum kickwheels. I think it took me about 2 weeks when I
first arrived at my teacher's workshop. I thought I would die of
exhaustion before I would ever be able to actually make something on it!
Something to keep in mind while you are centering on the korean wheel:
You aren't really kicking it so much as you are treading it. Your bared
foot spends much more time in contact with the kick plate than it does
on a Western kickwheel. Once you have the feel of doing this, then you
don't get exhausted.
And yes, after centering, the low momentum kickwheels are a lot like
throwing pots on a banding wheel. Very little pressure or force is used.
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft
About the best pots:
"They are not necessarily amenable to intellectual analysis,
and, in fact, that analysis can destroy a person's real
appreciation and understanding of a piece."
-- Warren MacKenzie
Earl Brunner on wed 29 jun 05
You guys DO go on...... Is the forming method, (or what you CALL the forming
method) as important as the final product? Get to the bottom line guys.
It's the pots, not the tools or how you use them. It's the pots. Pots,
Pots, Pots.
Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Vince Pitelka
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 7:53 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Coil and Throw.
> It always amuses me when people say that what you do every day,
> can't be done.
> There is no point in arguing, you just waste your breath.
Lee -
Don't be insulting. It isn't a question of argueing. It is a question of
explaining. All you have to do is explain to me how those coil pots can be
considered thrown. That is not an unreasonable request.
Earl Brunner on wed 29 jun 05
I've got this Peeler video from the 60's I think, that shows some potters in
Japan making 600 lb pots. Its coil and throw method, one guy is lying on
the floor turning the wheel with his feet while the other guy throws. The
wheel has no motor, and the wheel does not appear to have any appreciable
weight - a pretty good definition of a "banding wheel". He IS throwing on
that wheel.
Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Lee Love
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 8:42 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Coil and Throw.
clennell wrote:
>Last summer in japan I tried a Korean kick wheel and it was really just an
>oversized banding wheel. 3 or 4 cups and I was exhausted.
>I do agree with you that to throw on a banding wheel is really making life
>difficult for yourself but hey isn't that what potters are so good at.?
>
>
*Haha!* Oversized banding wheel indeed! My keiyaki Korean style
kickwheel is my single most important tool (more important than working
exclusively with a wood fired kiln.) It has taught me so much.
Mike Martino on wed 29 jun 05
Nakazato Muan, the famous Karatsu potter (now deceased) who was
designated a national treasure, did a combination of coiling, throwing,
and paddling to create his large vases and jars.
After coiling and pinching several layers of coils, he would apply water
and smooth everything over with a skin followed by paddling, letting the
pot rest, then starting the process over again until the pot was
finished.
In every book that I've seen explaining him working, they use the word
'mizubiki' which is the Japanese word for 'throwing'. A literal
translation would be 'water pulling' or 'pulling w/water'. Now, I know
that he didn't do much moving of the clay during the 'mizubiki' stage of
his coil building, it was mostly to make sure the coils were melded
together and to readjust the balance as the pot got taller. The Japanese
explanation still refered to this as 'mizubiki', even though 'the form
was NOT significantly raised and expanded by the "throwing action." ' He
did use a light kickwheel for his work, not a banding wheel, but again,
'the form was NOT significantly raised and expanded by the "throwing
action". '
Now I'm not going to devote any energy to arguing about whether or not
my pot qualifies as 'thrown' or not (the one at the karatsupots blog is
mine, and I myself would probably lean toward not thrown), honestly it's
really not that important, since the pot got made nonetheless. BUT, in
the case of the scope of the word 'throw' as relates to pottery, and in
light of the example from the previous paragraphs, perhaps the
definition is a more varied than we might initially assume, even for
folks who do have a lot of experience in the field.
Regards,
Mike
PS: About this sentence:
> I went to the website and I saw pots that were entirely coil-built,
and then the surface was finalized in the fashion of a thrown
>pot, leaving surface markings that looked like throwing marks.
If this refers to the pot at http://karatsupots.blogspot.com/ then
Vince, you really burst my bubble! I've actually been working very hard
to make paddles and anvils that eradicate any surface texture left over
from pinching or pulling. Well crap! I guess I need to start thinking
about other solutions if that pot has anything resembling throwing
marks. : )
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
mike martino
in taku, japan
muchimi@potteryofjapan.com
www.potteryofjapan.com
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Vince
Pitelka
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 11:53 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Coil and Throw.
> It always amuses me when people say that what you do every day,
> can't be done. There is no point in arguing, you just waste your
> breath.
Lee -
Don't be insulting. It isn't a question of argueing. It is a question
of explaining. All you have to do is explain to me how those coil pots
can be considered thrown. That is not an unreasonable request. I went
to the website and I saw pots that were entirely coil-built, and then
the surface was finalized in the fashion of a thrown pot, leaving
surface markings that looked like throwing marks. That's not a thrown
pot, unless the form is significantly raised and expanded by the
"throwing action." From all you have said it just seems to me that you
are stretching the interpretation of the term "throwing" in a way that
just confuses the issue. Please tell me how those pots can be
considered "thrown." Thanks in advance for your explanation -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111 vpitelka@dtccom.net,
wpitelka@tntech.edu http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
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Taylor from Rockport on wed 29 jun 05
Mike and Vince and all y'all:
This Karatsu metod, Mike, sounds a lot like what I see on Katz's videos of
the Thai potters. Once they place on the rolls, and they smear their rolls
rather than pinch as you do, they throw with wet strips of cloth inside and
out. I could not tell that uncle was putting much pressure at all on the
clay. Certainly it was nothing like what a Bayer would do with coil and
throw.
Also on the videos were potters who coiled, threw, whatever very (I say
insanly) articulated pots on nothing more than light banding wheels on
rebar stuck in the groud. One potter had several of these just outside his
hut. Short commute to work. He would use one hand to work the clay while
the other hand continually turned the wheel. Now THAT will just take the
wind out of your lexiconic sails, won't it?
Mike, I could tell from the pictures that what I saw was fine paddling
marks, but some might not been able to make that out without knowing a bit
about your method before hand.
BTW those Shimpo banding wheels are friggin' expensive here in the US of
A. No way I'm going to drop that amount of clams on a banding wheel.
Taylor in Rockport TX
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:32:36 +0900, Mike Martino
wrote:
>Nakazato Muan, the famous Karatsu potter (now deceased) who was
>designated a national treasure, did a combination of coiling, throwing,
>and paddling to create his large vases and jars.
>After coiling and pinching several layers of coils, he would apply water
>and smooth everything over with a skin followed by paddling, letting the
>pot rest, then starting the process over again until the pot was
>finished.
...
Now, I know
>that he didn't do much moving of the clay during the 'mizubiki' stage of
>his coil building, it was mostly to make sure the coils were melded
>together and to readjust the balance as the pot got taller. ...
...
>If this refers to the pot at http://karatsupots.blogspot.com/ then
>Vince, you really burst my bubble! I've actually been working very hard
>to make paddles and anvils that eradicate any surface texture left over
>from pinching or pulling. Well crap! I guess I need to start thinking
>about other solutions if that pot has anything resembling throwing
>marks. : )
...
Steve Slatin on wed 29 jun 05
Earl --
And the guy lying on the floor turning the wheel with
his feet is doing what, eh? As I see it, it's a
*powered* wheel (though possibly one with little or no
inertial element).
So ... we're back where we started. Lee wants to call
his wooden inertia wheel a banding wheel because he
turns it -- powers it -- with his feet. Some people
want to call shaping anything using a turning approach
or piece of equipment 'throwing.' Vince wants to call
it throwing only if the shape and/or height are
created using the movement of the wheel.
FWIW, the definition in Hamer and Hamer is "The action
of making pots on a quickly rotating wheel using only
the hands and, for lubrication, water. .... The
process involves centering a spinning lump of plastic
clay upon the wheel head. When the piece is running
true, it is opened in the centre, an inside base is
formed, and he walls of the pot are lifted from the
remainder of the clay ..."
That's a somewhat narrower definition than many of us
might use.
-- Steve Slatin
--- Earl Brunner wrote:
> I've got this Peeler video from the 60's I think,
> that shows some potters in
> Japan making 600 lb pots. Its coil and throw
> method, one guy is lying on
> the floor turning the wheel with his feet while the
> other guy throws. The
> wheel has no motor, and the wheel does not appear to
> have any appreciable
> weight - a pretty good definition of a "banding
> wheel".
Steve Slatin --
Frail my heart apart and play me little Shady Grove
Ring the bells of Rhymney till they ring inside my head forever
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Richard Swenson on wed 29 jun 05
Iceberg....Greenberg...?
Thrown? Coiled?
just do it.
Ric
Ric Swenson 770 923-8816 >From: Lee Love <Lee@MASHIKO.ORG> >Reply-To: Clayart <CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG> >To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG >Subject: Re: Coil and Throw. >Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:55:24 +0900 > >On 2005/06/29 22:44:50, brunv53@yahoo.com wrote: > > You guys DO go on...... Is the forming method, (or what you CALL >the > > forming > > method) as important as the final product? Get to the bottom line >guys. > > It's the pots, not the tools or how you use them. It's the pots. >Pots, > > Pots, Pots. > > Earl, the process is extremely important. The old >ways >of making large pots, before we had the electric wheel, were a lot >easier on the
body. > > >-- >Lee In Mashiko, Japan > >______________________________________________________________________________ >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org > >You may look at the archives for the list or change your >subscription >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/ > >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at >melpots@pclink.com.
Find just what you're after with the new, more precise MSN Search - try it now!
Vince Pitelka on wed 29 jun 05
> You guys DO go on...... Is the forming method, (or what you CALL the
> forming
> method) as important as the final product? Get to the bottom line guys.
> It's the pots, not the tools or how you use them. It's the pots. Pots,
> Pots, Pots.
Dear Earl -
Your statement above has no relevance to the discussion. We are talking
about the terms that define technique and process, and the importance of
clarifying those terms in the overall conversation about ceramics. In
talking about our work, we need to be able to identify what work is
handbuilt and what work is wheel-thrown. It always seemed pretty clear to
me.
Clarification of terminology is always a good thing.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Vince Pitelka on wed 29 jun 05
> I've got this Peeler video from the 60's I think, that shows some potters
> in
> Japan making 600 lb pots. Its coil and throw method, one guy is lying on
> the floor turning the wheel with his feet while the other guy throws. The
> wheel has no motor, and the wheel does not appear to have any appreciable
> weight - a pretty good definition of a "banding wheel". He IS throwing on
> that wheel.
AARGH! This is getting frustrating, Earl. Isn't it rather obvious that
having someone continuously pedaling the wheel is a good substitute for the
inertia of a large weighted wheel? Yes, of course you could throw on a
banding wheel if you had another person sitting opposite you constantly
turning the banding wheel. That would be the parallel to what you describe
above.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Earl Brunner on wed 29 jun 05
The process is important, the clay is important, the glaze is important, the firing is important, heck, even the potter is important, EVERYTHING IS IMPORTANT. But it is especially important what I had for breakfast this morning.
Just remember, "when everybody is special" (important) then nobody is.
Lee Love wrote:
On 2005/06/29 22:44:50, brunv53@yahoo.com wrote:
Earl, the process is extremely important. The old ways
of making large pots, before we had the electric wheel, were a lot
easier on the body.
--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Earl Brunner
e-mail: brunv53@yahoo.com
Earl Brunner on wed 29 jun 05
Stick that guy on the foors big toe in a wall socket and power up that baby. :)
Hey, I'm Pre-Hamer and Hamer and even Pre-Hamer, I've always been a little reluctant to use that as my Bible, having grown up on Glen Nelson, Daniel Rhodes and Michael Cardew.
Steve Slatin wrote:
Earl --
FWIW, the definition in Hamer and Hamer is "The action
of making pots on a quickly rotating wheel using only
the hands and, for lubrication, water. .... The
process involves centering a spinning lump of plastic
clay upon the wheel head. When the piece is running
true, it is opened in the centre, an inside base is
formed, and he walls of the pot are lifted from the
remainder of the clay ..."
That's a somewhat narrower definition than many of us
might use.
-- Steve Slatin
Earl Brunner
e-mail: brunv53@yahoo.com
Earl Brunner on wed 29 jun 05
Right....................................... It's easy to discount by making irrelevant.
Vince Pitelka wrote:> You guys DO go on...... Is the forming method, (or what you CALL the
> forming
> method) as important as the final product? Get to the bottom line guys.
> It's the pots, not the tools or how you use them. It's the pots. Pots,
> Pots, Pots.
Dear Earl -
Your statement above has no relevance to the discussion.
Earl Brunner
e-mail: brunv53@yahoo.com
bonnie staffel on thu 30 jun 05
Hi Clayarters,
All this talk about different ways of "throwing" a pot brings to mind my
first wheel. Touching clay was the turning point in my life. Couldn't get
enough of it. So my clever husband decided to build an electric wheel for
me. We had an old Edison Phonograph player. So he took it apart and used
the spindle and turntable. He rigged it up to three different sized pulleys
run by a motor. I learned to throw on that contraption. To change speeds,
I would have to stop and change the belt to make it go faster or slower.
It didn't matter, I was learning the process. Taught me patience as that
spindle was only as large as my little finger. I was able to throw mugs
which were fired to Cone 06 in a one-brick high home made electric kiln.
Luckily, I was able to sell those first ventures at $1.50 each and that paid
for my first stand-up treadle wheel built by George Fetzer. You couldn't
hold me back. I worked on that wheel for twelve years. After I purchased
my "real" electric wheel built by Norm Schulman I was able to continue my
quest of learning about clay. What an adventure.
So what is all this brouhaha about which wheel is better. You use what you
have; you get from it whatever you need to fill your soul and to learn. I
also took a class at the Toledo Art Museum and studied with Harvey
Littleton. Yes, he was first a potter having just graduated from Cranbrook.
I worked on one of those Amaco metal stand up kick wheels. At that time he
compared my forms and work to Baggs who was one of the forerunners in the
studio clay movement. I received a lot of encouragement from him and
received a scholarship to study at Cranbrook. One didn't have to have a
college background to attend, just to exhibit self direction and some
talent. There I worked on the stand up treadle wheel in a room filled with
eager potters from all over the world. One learned from each other as they
brought their skills to the school. What a feast. CouCoul (sp?) a fellow
from Switzerland who couldn't speak English, but could throw the tallest,
thinnest necks on bottles I had ever seen. Toshiko and I became friends and
she brought her Hawaiian/Japanese skills. Not that we had any tea ceremony,
but every afternoon we would have a tea break with teas sent to her by her
family. Also tasty treats from the other students to share. Maija would
come up from her studio to join us, her parakeet on her shoulder. One
fellow spent the entire semester trying to learn how to center. Just
couldn't get it. Randy Koelsch was also a hard working student. Wonder
what ever happened to him. Another student brought his electric wheel, Dave
was his name. We went to an early Peter Voulkos demonstration workshop.
Norman LaLiberte enrolled in the art department and astounded us with his
drawing talent. Remember, we were in the 50's classic period of clay and
Norman was way off the wall.
While there I did a lot of glaze experiments with many in every kiln load.
They had a huge globar electric kiln that produced beautiful glazes.
Toshiko shared her copper red glazes with local reduction. You can see
those pots on my web Pottery page. The large bowl in the first picture I
used Toshiko's Copper Red glaze and in the third top photo is a glaze I
developed where Maija said it was one of the most beautiful glazes she had
ever seen, Whew, I was floating. I tried the glaze in my own kiln and it
came out gray in tone rather than the rich brown. Learned that even
different electric kilns produced different finishes from the rate of firing
and cooling.
Now to judge whether my method of learning is right or wrong, it doesn't
matter. This was my experience. I am a naturally curious person and that
trip was the reward for me. I was exposed to many, many techniques, some
adopted and some discarded until I found my own voice. Clay is still an
adventure to me and I plan to continue to explore new techniques every day.
thanks for listening.
Regards,
Bonnie Staffel
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
Charter Member Potters Council
Lee Love on thu 30 jun 05
On 2005/06/29 22:50:00, brunv53@yahoo.com wrote:
> I've got this Peeler video from the 60's I think, that shows some
potters
> in Japan making 600 lb pots. Its coil and throw method, one guy is
lying on
> the floor turning the wheel with his feet while the other guy throws.
> The wheel has no motor, and the wheel does not appear to have any
appreciable
> weight - a pretty good definition of a "banding wheel". He IS throwing
> on that wheel.
Earl,
There is a photo of this method in a book that arrived
yesterday from Amazon Japan.
As has been explained, throwing means turning.
Have you ever seen video/film of folks that use the coil method
to make big pots, but instead of the pot being thrown/turned, the pot
is stationary and the maker circles the pot walking backwards? I
guess the potter is being thrown instead of the pot. :-)
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
Lee Love on thu 30 jun 05
On 2005/06/29 22:44:50, brunv53@yahoo.com wrote:
> You guys DO go on...... Is the forming method, (or what you CALL the
> forming
> method) as important as the final product? Get to the bottom line guys.
> It's the pots, not the tools or how you use them. It's the pots. Pots,
> Pots, Pots.
Earl, the process is extremely important. The old ways
of making large pots, before we had the electric wheel, were a lot
easier on the body.
--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
Lee Love on thu 30 jun 05
On 2005/06/30 0:39:25, wirerabbit@yahoo.com wrote:
> BTW those Shimpo banding wheels are friggin'
> expensive here in the US of A. No way
> I'm going to drop that amount of clams o
Taylor, I bought mine on sale from the crafts department of Joyful
Honda for about $80.00 Last time I looked there, the price went up a
little.
Lee In Mashiko, Japan.
Lee Love on thu 30 jun 05
On 2005/06/30 7:02:52, brunv53@yahoo.com wrote:
> Just remember, "when everybody is special" (important) then nobody is.
The big issue with this is actually manifesting it. If we
treat the process of work as being important, and not simply focus on
the product, then we can embody the concept of "everybody is special",
and manifest it in our lives.
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
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