Sam Hoffman on wed 29 jun 05
One reason I am a HUGE fan of Soldner wheels is their low speed
precision. Although at full throttle, they do have quite a lot of
horsepower, most of the power is torque, not speed. Press the pedal
3/4 of the way on, and the wheel is still spinning relatively slowly,
unlike the Brents and Pacificas. Definitely a bit more spendy, but
well worth the money.
If your gonna go electric...
-Sam
On Jun 29, 2005, at 2:33 PM, mel jacobson wrote:
> while in madras india i was witness to the
> ox cart potters wheel. it cost me 20 rupies
> for each pot made with me watching...i gave
> him a hundred and told him to go to work. (at the time about a
> dollar.)
> gave him five when he was done.
>
> an ox cart wheel about four feet across is
> placed on a rock with ample animal fat.
> the top of the hub has a piece of plywood
> attached with nails.
>
> the potter straddles the wheel and spins it with
> his hand. he throws down about 5 pounds of soft
> clay. the wheel wobbles and bounces and the
> potter moves in rhythm with the process.
> a perfect vase rises. about 40 rpms. the energy comes
> from the large size of the wheel, with the clay in the center.
> very nice.
>
> i always wonder about those that complain because
> their brent is about 20 thousands out of round. go try the guy's wheel
> in madras.
> try that wheel.
> or the arab wheel i saw in dubai.
> made from lashed bamboo, with a treadle.
> the entire wheel moves about four inches up and down, back
> and forth while he throws.. but they are throwing with a steady 40
> rpms.
>
> i feel that most potters view throwing as a steady speed with some
> torque power. leg, motor, belt. many potters slow the process and
> still throw...but stop and start to me is not throwing. it is a hand
> building
> process on a turning wheel. it matters not, but throwing for most
> potters in the world is a steady speed. controlled by the potter with
> energy.
>
> coiling in a puki is not throwing...even thought he puki spins on the
> lap. it is hand building.
> same for many of the thousands of techniques that potters use.
>
> wheels are mechanical with speed and energy to pull and stretch the
> clay at a constant speed.
>
> most western potters throw far too fast..center far too fast...and
> are basically out of control.
> wheels are made wrong. too much speed and energy.
> slow down...you will be much happier.
> mel
>
>
>
>
>
> from mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
> website: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
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>
>
S.L. Hoffman Pottery
Corvallis, Oregon
www.samhoffman.com
mel jacobson on wed 29 jun 05
while in madras india i was witness to the
ox cart potters wheel. it cost me 20 rupies
for each pot made with me watching...i gave
him a hundred and told him to go to work. (at the time about a dollar.)
gave him five when he was done.
an ox cart wheel about four feet across is
placed on a rock with ample animal fat.
the top of the hub has a piece of plywood
attached with nails.
the potter straddles the wheel and spins it with
his hand. he throws down about 5 pounds of soft
clay. the wheel wobbles and bounces and the
potter moves in rhythm with the process.
a perfect vase rises. about 40 rpms. the energy comes
from the large size of the wheel, with the clay in the center.
very nice.
i always wonder about those that complain because
their brent is about 20 thousands out of round. go try the guy's wheel
in madras.
try that wheel.
or the arab wheel i saw in dubai.
made from lashed bamboo, with a treadle.
the entire wheel moves about four inches up and down, back
and forth while he throws.. but they are throwing with a steady 40 rpms.
i feel that most potters view throwing as a steady speed with some
torque power. leg, motor, belt. many potters slow the process and
still throw...but stop and start to me is not throwing. it is a hand building
process on a turning wheel. it matters not, but throwing for most
potters in the world is a steady speed. controlled by the potter with
energy.
coiling in a puki is not throwing...even thought he puki spins on the
lap. it is hand building.
same for many of the thousands of techniques that potters use.
wheels are mechanical with speed and energy to pull and stretch the
clay at a constant speed.
most western potters throw far too fast..center far too fast...and
are basically out of control.
wheels are made wrong. too much speed and energy.
slow down...you will be much happier.
mel
from mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
website: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on wed 29 jun 05
Hi Mel,
Has the overly fast, hi-horse-power Potter's Wheel, been the compliment to
the overly hard, not seasoned, seldom wedged well, use of (not quite
ready-to-go ) 'Bag-Clay'?
Where, later, the Potter again whirls their Work at a dizzying, terrific
speed, to try and Trim it with dull Tools?
How far from the pragmatics of the old days!...that these three unhappy
confluent things, all support eachother?
Sentimental as sappy as ever,
Yours,
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "mel jacobson"
> while in madras india i was witness to the
> ox cart potters wheel. it cost me 20 rupies
> for each pot made with me watching...i gave
> him a hundred and told him to go to work. (at the time about a dollar.)
> gave him five when he was done.
>
> an ox cart wheel about four feet across is
> placed on a rock with ample animal fat.
> the top of the hub has a piece of plywood
> attached with nails.
>
> the potter straddles the wheel and spins it with
> his hand. he throws down about 5 pounds of soft
> clay. the wheel wobbles and bounces and the
> potter moves in rhythm with the process.
> a perfect vase rises. about 40 rpms. the energy comes
> from the large size of the wheel, with the clay in the center.
> very nice.
>
> i always wonder about those that complain because
> their brent is about 20 thousands out of round. go try the guy's wheel
> in madras.
> try that wheel.
> or the arab wheel i saw in dubai.
> made from lashed bamboo, with a treadle.
> the entire wheel moves about four inches up and down, back
> and forth while he throws.. but they are throwing with a steady 40 rpms.
>
> i feel that most potters view throwing as a steady speed with some
> torque power. leg, motor, belt. many potters slow the process and
> still throw...but stop and start to me is not throwing. it is a hand
building
> process on a turning wheel. it matters not, but throwing for most
> potters in the world is a steady speed. controlled by the potter with
> energy.
>
> coiling in a puki is not throwing...even thought he puki spins on the
> lap. it is hand building.
> same for many of the thousands of techniques that potters use.
>
> wheels are mechanical with speed and energy to pull and stretch the
> clay at a constant speed.
>
> most western potters throw far too fast..center far too fast...and
> are basically out of control.
> wheels are made wrong. too much speed and energy.
> slow down...you will be much happier.
Elizabeth Priddy on wed 29 jun 05
That is why I have my students first learn on a York kickwheel.
It is immediate, pushed with your foot, no splash pan...
if you use too much water, clay in the crotch.
if you want it to go too fast, you huff and you puff til you get there.
if you want it reversed, kick with the other foot.
around $350 in Axner catalog.
I've bought about 7 from Mr. York himself.
No relationship with Axner, just who makes them now.
Oh, and about 50 pounds ready to take around for demos,
no electricity required, you can hose it all down.
I have thrown off the hump with 25 lbs at a time on it and with
detachable bats, a 30 lb pot. It takes skill and control, for
anything under ten lbs, not even that much skill required,
wheel does most of the work.
It is my favorite wheel and I have a Brebt CXC, a Pacifica 800,
a Brent kickwheel, and about three baby table tops.
Funny, but when you learn on a kickwheel and get the rhythm of
it (kick kick center kick kick open kick kick pull pull pull
kick kick shape kick kick wheel trim stop) the electrics seem
wildly out of control.
Elizabeth
mel jacobson wrote:
...
i always wonder about those that complain because
their brent is about 20 thousands out of round. go try the guy's wheel
in madras.
try that wheel.
or the arab wheel i saw in dubai.
made from lashed bamboo, with a treadle.
the entire wheel moves about four inches up and down, back
and forth while he throws.. but they are throwing with a steady 40 rpms.
...
Elizabeth Priddy*
252-504-2622
1273 Hwy 101
Beaufort, NC 28516
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
*If you are an extra-sensitive or easily-offended type:
Remember that what I say is obviously just my opinion based
on my experiences and that I, like most people, don't go around
intending to step on toes and make folks cry. Take it with a
grain of salt and move along, there are others waiting to
give me grief because of their own buttons I inadvertently
pushed...
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
Pat Lindemann on wed 29 jun 05
mel, you are so right. I learned to throw on a handmade kick wheel that has a cement flywheel. When I built my own wheel, it was a kickwheel with a cast cement flywheel poured into an antique corn planter wheel. Because of its weight (the flywheel is 200lbs.+) it can spin forever. I used to do production work on it, and it is amazing how, after a few thousand jars, your foot just knows when to kick it up a bit, and your hands and body adjust their movements to the rhythm and speed of the wheel.
I bought an electric wheel a few years ago- always thought I would love one- hated it. Got rid of it a year later. The kickwheel was in storage for better than a year and when it was set up again, it was like going home, like walking into the hug of an old friend.
simplicity is joy
later
Pat
mel jacobson wrote:
while in madras india i was witness to the
ox cart potters wheel. it cost me 20 rupies
for each pot made with me watching...i gave
him a hundred and told him to go to work. (at the time about a dollar.)
gave him five when he was done.
an ox cart wheel about four feet across is
placed on a rock with ample animal fat.
the top of the hub has a piece of plywood
attached with nails.
the potter straddles the wheel and spins it with
his hand. he throws down about 5 pounds of soft
clay. the wheel wobbles and bounces and the
potter moves in rhythm with the process.
a perfect vase rises. about 40 rpms. the energy comes
from the large size of the wheel, with the clay in the center.
very nice.
i always wonder about those that complain because
their brent is about 20 thousands out of round. go try the guy's wheel
in madras.
try that wheel.
or the arab wheel i saw in dubai.
made from lashed bamboo, with a treadle.
the entire wheel moves about four inches up and down, back
and forth while he throws.. but they are throwing with a steady 40 rpms.
i feel that most potters view throwing as a steady speed with some
torque power. leg, motor, belt. many potters slow the process and
still throw...but stop and start to me is not throwing. it is a hand building
process on a turning wheel. it matters not, but throwing for most
potters in the world is a steady speed. controlled by the potter with
energy.
coiling in a puki is not throwing...even thought he puki spins on the
lap. it is hand building.
same for many of the thousands of techniques that potters use.
wheels are mechanical with speed and energy to pull and stretch the
clay at a constant speed.
most western potters throw far too fast..center far too fast...and
are basically out of control.
wheels are made wrong. too much speed and energy.
slow down...you will be much happier.
mel
from mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
website: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
__________________________________________________
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Elizabeth Priddy on thu 30 jun 05
I have indeed tried this.
I have a friend from Taiwan who did it that way.
It works fine as the wheel is cast concrete and smooth.
I also use this wheel for handbuilding and banding as it fits on the
top of a table eith no problem.
With a good spin, it will keep moving for about 4 minutes on its own
before it starts to slow down if the only force applied is a brush.
Elizabeth
Lee Love wrote:
On 2005/06/30 8:57:22, priddyclay@yahoo.com wrote:
> That is why I have my students first learn on a York kickwheel.
Elizabeth,
These wheels really sound like a break-thru back home. Hey could
you try an experiment for me? You might not like it, but it is worth
an experiment? Instead of kicking it, can you try pulling it with a
bare foot? Because their is almost no momentum when centering,
pulling with a bare foot give you more contract time with the footplate
and is more efficent.
Elizabeth Priddy*
252-504-2622
1273 Hwy 101
Beaufort, NC 28516
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
*If you are an extra-sensitive or easily-offended type:
Remember that what I say is obviously just my opinion based
on my experiences and that I, like most people, don't go around
intending to step on toes and make folks cry. Take it with a
grain of salt and move along, there are others waiting to
give me grief because of their own buttons I inadvertently
pushed...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Eleanor on thu 30 jun 05
I, like many of the elderly, long for "the good old days", when I was
vigorous and free of infirmities. OTOH, I enjoy the fruits of progress:
air conditioning (it's hot here); calculators (I can't do math);
computers (I'm addicted); new-fangled machinery.
I learned on a kickwheel. When I began setting up my home studio, about
30 years ago, I bought a kickwheel kit from Pacifica. It had
drawbacks--like no splashpan, but I improvised and taught myself to
throw "dry".
Then the wheel and I began to age. The wheel got wobbly and tightening
the bolts didn't work--they just got loose again, and the wheelhead
developed a slight slope.
My right leg, the kicking leg, had an attack of phlebitis, the tibia
broke, the ankle swelled and hurt, I had heel pain, not all at once, of
course. The break healed and the pain is gone, but that leg has to be
watched.
So when I decided to give up on the kickwheel, I bought a Brent C and
I'm happy.
I must admit, I never felt a oneness with kicking and throwing; my
interest and attention were focused on the clay. I can regulate my
pressure on the electric footpedal to imitate the speeds I used on the
kickwheel -- I can even get it going slow enough to apply wax to feet.
Having been trained as a teacher, I can see the reasoning for having
beginners start out on kickwheels. In clay classes I have taken I have
observed beginners, after watching the teacher produce a finished pot
in a minute or two on a fast-m0ving electric wheel, try to do the same
and failing. The kickwheel in these cases automatically slows them down
and teaches them to connect wheel speed with the process of throwing.
I'm pleased with my Brent. It's not perfect either but it's good for my
"bad" leg.
I think one keeps young by trying and assimilating new things. I try
new glaze recipes and new cooking recipes. Some work, some don't. But I
keep trying.
Eleanor Kohler
dabbling in Centerport, NY
John Baymore on thu 30 jun 05
Instead of kicking it, can you try pulling it with a
bare foot? Because their is almost no momentum when centering,
pulling with a bare foot give you more contract time with the footplate
and is more efficent.
I don't know if the wheel is the right design to do this, but
it is worth a try. I pull with my left foot when centering, but once
I get going, I both pull with the left foot and kick with the right
foot. Helps you keep our legs limber.
Lee-san,
These York wheels have been around quite a while. I'm guessing it has
been well over 7 years since I first tried one... maybe it is more like
10. I have tried them out at places I was doing demos/presentations.
They are very much like a Korean kickwheel..... but they actually have
quite a bit more intertia.
Unfortunately for me, I found the proportions not to my liking. While the
Korean wheels "fit" my body just fine..... the York s do not. Always had
a back ache after spending half a day working on one. If kept in a
stationary setting ... they are likely durable. But because they are
mainly cast concrete...... moving them much can lead to cracking. Saw a
number of cracked ones over the years.
When using them I always ended up pulling with the bare left foot. Works
GREAT with them. (But I also tend to pull with the left foot on ANY
kickwheel for most of the throwing process.) Kicking away on the right
foot did not work very well... at least for me. And I never have liked
the two leg "pull / push" approch... haven't had time to master it yet.
But likely that would work well with them too.
They do create good gesture in the pieces. Oh ...and that are great
for "coil and throw" .
best,
................john
JBaymore@compuserve.com
http://www.JohnBaymore.com
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
"Do not use hotmail address at this time...use compuserve one for direct
communications."
Lee Love on thu 30 jun 05
On 2005/06/30 8:57:22, priddyclay@yahoo.com wrote:
> That is why I have my students first learn on a York kickwheel.
Elizabeth,
These wheels really sound like a break-thru back home. Hey could
you try an experiment for me? You might not like it, but it is worth
an experiment? Instead of kicking it, can you try pulling it with a
bare foot? Because their is almost no momentum when centering,
pulling with a bare foot give you more contract time with the footplate
and is more efficent.
I don't know if the wheel is the right design to do this, but
it is worth a try. I pull with my left foot when centering, but once
I get going, I both pull with the left foot and kick with the right
foot. Helps you keep our legs limber.
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
Lee Love on fri 1 jul 05
John Baymore wrote:
>
>They do create good gesture in the pieces. Oh ...and that are great
>for "coil and throw" .
>
Thank you Elizabeth and John and sharing your experience. I wouldn't say that everybody needs to switch to these kinds of wheels. But they are very good to learn on or even just experience, simply to broaden one's skills. Of course, electric wheels enable folks to work on the wheel that might not otherwise be able to.
One time at a dinner, my wife Jean asked my Sensei if he liked working on his electric wheel. He works on the Cadillac of Shimpos that takes 3 deshis to lift in and out of this throwing platform for servicing. It is also bolted to the floor with bolts that were laid in the concrete.
My teacher's reply was, "I hate it! I wish I would throw on my kickwheel. But my back is no good and I can't do it any longer." The electric wheel has helped put his throwing life past his middle 80s.
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft
About the best pots:
"They are not necessarily amenable to intellectual analysis,
and, in fact, that analysis can destroy a person's real
appreciation and understanding of a piece."
-- Warren MacKenzie
Steve Irvine on fri 1 jul 05
On the subject of old wheels, you might be interested in this one. I photographed it in England, at
an industrial pottery called Wreccelsham, in 1984. At the pottery they referred to it as the "slave
wheel." It took two people to operate it, a thrower (no doubt working slowly!) and a person to
power the wheel while kneeling and working the pole back and forth:
http://www.steveirvine.com/clayart/sla_wheel.jpg
Wreccelsham, also known as the A. Harris and Son Pottery Works, was the last of a dying breed in
England. It was an industrial scale pottery that still made everything on the wheel. They made
earthenware planters, chimney pipes, roof tiles, that sort of thing. An interesting place to visit, but
I notice in my notes the words, "dark, dangerous and Dickensian."
Steve Irvine
http://www.steveirvine.com
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