Leland Hall on sun 31 jul 05
Good morning folks.
Are there any electrical wizards out there? I need some knowedge. The
electiction that came out the other day agrees with me that I need a line
from the meter base (this will be under ground) to the studio site. This
will be about 180'. We would install an outside main breaker service
adjacent to the site. My current meter base main breaker service box at
the pole is a 300 amp. So thats a 200 amp breaker and service that
currently runs to the house, and leaves room for only a 100 amp line to the
studio/shop. Doesn't matter if we wind up trying to save whats left, or
build new, he says 100 amps is enough. That doesn't seem right to me.
Heck, The big electric kiln we lost drew 45 amps. So thats pretty much 1/2
the capacity right there.
So my understanding is that we would need to trash the 300 amp meter base
service we have now, and install a 400 amp meter base, that leaves capacity
for two 200 amp sevices. Then I could run two kilns at once, welder,
compressor, heat the building (what building,? I know, I know) and have a
little left for hot water, lights, NPR, and such. (Im sorry, but without
NPR I'll be jonesing seriously) I am very very nervous of winding up under
served again, if you see what I mean. I think the reason he was trying to
steer me towards keeping the 300 amp meterbase we have had something to do
with the fact that the 400 amp one is several hundred bucks on top of
several hundred bucks, and he sees that I'm out of work untill I at least
get some juice going on over there near the ash pile. But he really seemed
to be trying to imply that 100 amps would be enough. Not sure why. Maybe
he's right and I'm missing something?
So do I seem to have a grasp on the proper concepts here or is my thinking
out to lunch?
Thanks
Leland Hall
Before The Wheel Enterprises
La Pine, Oregon
Jim Willett on sun 31 jul 05
Leland if you can swing it the 200 amps to the studio is the only way to go.
All you need to do is add up the required amperages of what you think you
may be running in the future and that will tell you your requirements. You
are right in this case especially as you are building for the future. Our 16
cu ft kilns require 80 amps each which is a 100 amp breaker. I'm sitting
here with a 200 amp panel to feed my kilns and wishing I had (in the words
of Tim the Toolman) "More Power"!!! Yes it will cost hundreds more but in
the long run you're gonna need it.
Jim Willett
Out of the Fire Studio
http://www.outofthefirestudio.com
This message has been processed by Firetrust Benign.
Tom at Hutchtel.net on sun 31 jul 05
Jim is only partly right. Add up your amperage needs for everything that
might be on at once. Code is that that number should be no larger than 80
% of the service. 200 amps gives 160 amps usable. Best advice I can give
is get a code book from the library and follow it. Think also about what
you might add someday....another electric kiln? It'll never be cheaper to
add than right now.
So....keep on makin' lemonade.
Tom Wirt
The photos were devastating and brought too many images of our fire.
Subject: Re: Fire at Before the Wheel, need advice of electrical type
> Leland if you can swing it the 200 amps to the studio is the only way to
> go.
> All you need to do is add up the required amperages of what you think you
> may be running in the future and that will tell you your requirements. You
Frances Howard on sun 31 jul 05
Leland, couldn't you use 100 amps in your house and 200 amps in your studio
if that's where the biggest use is?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leland Hall"
To:
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 10:15 AM
Subject: Fire at Before the Wheel, need advice of electrical type
> Good morning folks.
>
> Are there any electrical wizards out there? I need some knowedge. The
> electiction that came out the other day agrees with me that I need a line
> from the meter base (this will be under ground) to the studio site. This
> will be about 180'. We would install an outside main breaker service
> adjacent to the site. My current meter base main breaker service box at
> the pole is a 300 amp. So thats a 200 amp breaker and service that
> currently runs to the house, and leaves room for only a 100 amp line to
the
> studio/shop. Doesn't matter if we wind up trying to save whats left, or
> build new, he says 100 amps is enough. That doesn't seem right to me.
> Heck, The big electric kiln we lost drew 45 amps. So thats pretty much
1/2
> the capacity right there.
>
> So my understanding is that we would need to trash the 300 amp meter base
> service we have now, and install a 400 amp meter base, that leaves
capacity
> for two 200 amp sevices. Then I could run two kilns at once, welder,
> compressor, heat the building (what building,? I know, I know) and have a
> little left for hot water, lights, NPR, and such. (Im sorry, but without
> NPR I'll be jonesing seriously) I am very very nervous of winding up under
> served again, if you see what I mean. I think the reason he was trying to
> steer me towards keeping the 300 amp meterbase we have had something to do
> with the fact that the 400 amp one is several hundred bucks on top of
> several hundred bucks, and he sees that I'm out of work untill I at least
> get some juice going on over there near the ash pile. But he really
seemed
> to be trying to imply that 100 amps would be enough. Not sure why. Maybe
> he's right and I'm missing something?
>
> So do I seem to have a grasp on the proper concepts here or is my thinking
> out to lunch?
>
> Thanks
> Leland Hall
> Before The Wheel Enterprises
>
>
> La Pine, Oregon
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Leland Hall on sun 31 jul 05
I think that code requires any single family dwelling to have a min. 200
amp service. Now it's true that we our tiny house does use that much, but
I'd never talk an electriction into doing it that way, (I think) and it
would not pass inpection. (I think)
Also we hope to cause a new home to appear here eventually, and that will
definatly require a 200 amp service.
Thanks for your thoughts though!! And if I'm wrong I need to hear it!
Leland
Before The Wheel
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:01:17 -0300, Frances Howard
wrote:
>Leland, couldn't you use 100 amps in your house and 200 amps in your studio
>if that's where the biggest use is?
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Leland Hall"
>To:
>Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 10:15 AM
>Subject: Fire at Before the Wheel, need advice of electrical type
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>___________________________________________________________________________
_
>__
>> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Jim Willett on sun 31 jul 05
Thanks Tom. I knew that, was writing quick before heading out to studio,
glad to have a proofreader! Last thing we want in this situation is for
anyone to get any wrong advice.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Tom at
Hutchtel.net
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 10:47 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Fire at Before the Wheel, need advice of electrical type
Jim is only partly right. Add up your amperage needs for everything that
might be on at once. Code is that that number should be no larger than 80
% of the service. 200 amps gives 160 amps usable. Best advice I can give
is get a code book from the library and follow it. Think also about what
you might add someday....another electric kiln? It'll never be cheaper to
add than right now.
So....keep on makin' lemonade.
Tom Wirt
The photos were devastating and brought too many images of our fire.
Subject: Re: Fire at Before the Wheel, need advice of electrical type
> Leland if you can swing it the 200 amps to the studio is the only way
> to go.
> All you need to do is add up the required amperages of what you think
> you may be running in the future and that will tell you your
> requirements. You
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
----------------------------------------------------
This message has been processed by Firetrust Benign.
Cindi Anderson on sun 31 jul 05
I would definitely go for the 200 amps. A lot of not-so-large kilns need
80-100 amps. You said your big kiln drew 45 amps but if you wanted a kiln
that would fire Cone 10 or wanted a bigger kiln, they are easily 60, 70, 80
amps. Remember if your other kiln was 45 amps, it needed a 60 amp breaker.
So it isn't almost 1/2 the capacity of a 100 amp, it is 60%.
On the other hand, if you are happy with the size of kiln you had and have
no need to do higher temperatures, then other devices like wheels don't take
much power. So you might do fine with 100 amps.
Cindi
Reno, NV
Mayssan Shora Farra on mon 1 aug 05
Hello Leland:
Sosorry about the fire. I dohave to tellmy little story about my almost
fire.
When we built my studio we got a 200 amp for it although at the time I only
had a small kiln that neede a 45 amp breaker and when the electrician came
I told him that I need a 6 mil copper wire to connect to the kiln as per
the instructions that came with the kiln and I did stress that.
The kiln was connected and I fired it a couple of times then the breaker
started shutting down half way through, called the electrician, he came
back and said he had put the wrong breaker in and replaced it with the
required 45. At this time I ask are you sure you put a 6 amp copper wire?
and he assures me he did.
6 years later I get a new kiln, call an electrician to install it ( a
different one and one with background in industry so he knows how much a
kiln would pull) and while he is at it I have him check the old wiring.
It turns out he a 10 mil was used for the old kiln instead of the 6 and it
was corroder almost to the point of burning, It was only luck that has
prevented a fire.
Please! please! everyone make sure the electricians listen to you, they are
used to dryers and ovens, not to kilns.
Good Luck Leland on rebuilding
Mayssan
Leland Hall on mon 1 aug 05
Well, as one might imagine, my confidence in my electrical abilities and
knowledge is shot to heck. Isn't there a saying about a litle knowledge?
Any and all wiring around this place will be done by "not me" in the future.
And now I'm hearing that sometimes liscensed electricians sqiff the job.
Great! That's comforting! I'm kind of kidding there.
Really, I'm sure that's good advice, makeing sure they "listen". Maybe
kind of looking over their shoulder to be sure they are doing what is
asked. But of course I want to believe that MOST qualified electrictions
know what they are doing and take care to do it right.
Sounds like you ran into an exception. Thank the stars you got lucky with
that kiln.
Regards
Leland
On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:00:34 -0400, Mayssan Shora Farra
wrote:
>Hello Leland:
>
>Sosorry about the fire. I dohave to tellmy little story about my almost
>fire.
>
>When we built my studio we got a 200 amp for it although at the time I only
>had a small kiln that neede a 45 amp breaker and when the electrician came
>I told him that I need a 6 mil copper wire to connect to the kiln as per
>the instructions that came with the kiln and I did stress that.
>
>The kiln was connected and I fired it a couple of times then the breaker
>started shutting down half way through, called the electrician, he came
>back and said he had put the wrong breaker in and replaced it with the
>required 45. At this time I ask are you sure you put a 6 amp copper wire?
>and he assures me he did.
>
>6 years later I get a new kiln, call an electrician to install it ( a
>different one and one with background in industry so he knows how much a
>kiln would pull) and while he is at it I have him check the old wiring.
>
>It turns out he a 10 mil was used for the old kiln instead of the 6 and it
>was corroder almost to the point of burning, It was only luck that has
>prevented a fire.
>
>Please! please! everyone make sure the electricians listen to you, they are
>used to dryers and ovens, not to kilns.
>
>Good Luck Leland on rebuilding
>Mayssan
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Leland Hall on thu 18 aug 05
David, I don't understand your choice of words, "wanting to spend all that
money" jeeze were looking at all options here, and that may be a good one,
two seperate meters, and good espescially for the reasons you mention. It
may not be possible though, we're looking into it!
Deschutes county government is very restrictive, and this area is zoned RR,
rural residential, single family dwelling. So there may be an issue with a
second meter, as in they want to know why. Can't say commercial. We've got
people on the question even as I write this. My electricion says it MIGHT
fly. Now I could drop a bundle trying to get a varience to rezone my
acreage to commercial, naw----bad idea.
The electric co-op serving this area holds the landowner reponsible for
any and all ditching (underground is indeed mandatory)and in fact we pay
for anything and everything that happens beyond their transformer on the
street. (thats about 75 yard away) And that's a fact. Also there are
considerable "facility" charges that acrue monthly with a seperate meter,
as well as a fat "hook up" fee.
Still, it might be the way to go, might be the most cost effective, we just
don't know yet. And we are looking into it.
On the other hand, I've got two and half acres with southern exposure. How
about a couple of acres of solar panels? Get off the damn grid entirely!!
I like it!! Would that be a first? Solar powered pottery? Just kidding,
but it has it's appeal.
Oh well, it is what it is, and will be what it will be.
Thanks for your brainstorming folks, I mean it. Thanks.
Leland Hall
Before The Wheel Enterprises
La Pine, OR
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:41:05 -0500, David Hendley wrote:
>Well Leland, I still don't understand why you want to spend all that
>money and do this.
>I like to keep my business and home utilities totally separate. Any
>accountant you talk to will tell you to do this because you have
>rock-solid, undisputable deductions for your business.
>
>If I were starting from scratch, I would run 200 amps to my house
>and 200 amps to my shop. 2 lines, 2 meters, 2 accounts.
>Where I live the cost of running the service from the transformer
>to the meter base is paid for by the electric coop, unless more than
>one additional pole needs to be installed (over 200 feet, I think).
>In your case, I would keep the 200 amp service to my house and
>run new 200 amp service to my shop. Any expenses would be
>paid by the business.
>As you say you are doing things now, your personal and business
>expenses are completely tangled together.
>
>Best of luck,
>David Hendley
>I don't know nothin' but the blues, cobalt that is.
>david@farmpots.com
>http://www.farmpots.com
>
Leland Hall on thu 18 aug 05
Well, I guess there has finially been a little "progress" as far as
discision making regarding loss of our studio to fire.
First, the electricion that has been advising us is back from vacation, and
called yesterday. I told him I had definately decided to go with the 200
amp service. He claims to have told me this the day he was out (not but 48
hours after the fire), but I guess I was too rattled to hear him the first
time, because it sounded new to me. I was shocked and dissapointed.
Three grand. Turns out from the transformer to the pole/meter base in the
yard, the wire is rated only to 300. And furthermore, the electric co-op
is requiring that any upgrades go under ground. (it's currently overhead)
So, a 600 dollar fee, another ditch, a 700 dollar 400 amp meter base, all
that 4 ought wire, and thats just to get to the middle of the front yard.
Then on to the studio, another 1500 bucks. Whine whine, complain
complain. Sorry.
Now the good news.
We can keep what's left of the studio. Structurally, the main part of the
building is sound enough to repair. Had a local contractor friend out last
nite. He says we can knock out the north load bearing wall, and rebuild
it. If we do that, we'll be several hundred square foot deminished, but at
least it would be a start for a heated space to get back to work.
Unfortunatly, I have to do that BEFORE the electric can be kicked in. (and
then aquire another kiln)
This is depressing, but I'm trying to keep my chin up. I'm frustrated with
how long it's taken to gather the information CERF needs, but there was no
help for that. To tell the truth, it looks to me like even if we qualify
for their maximum assistance, our lives may be on a very different course
now. I've always been a "bull by the horns" kind of guy, very goal
oriented, proud to be captain of my ship, so to speak. You know, create
your luck. So I'm very uncomfortable with this "which way is the wind
gonna go?" stuff. I feel like an ant being asked to disassembe Mt
everest. I know where to start, but jeeze----
Other days, I have notions of grabbing a back pack and just walking away.
Stupid thought, I know. I slap it down and carry on with whatever task is
in front of me.
What ever happens, you clayarters have already done much to ease the pain,
and we're greatful. Thanks for listening.
Leland Hall
Before The Wheel Enterprises
Raku Pottery and Sculpture
La Pine, Oregon
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:57:58 -0600, Jim Willett
wrote:
>Leland if you can swing it the 200 amps to the studio is the only way to
go.
>All you need to do is add up the required amperages of what you think you
>may be running in the future and that will tell you your requirements. You
>are right in this case especially as you are building for the future. Our
16
>cu ft kilns require 80 amps each which is a 100 amp breaker. I'm sitting
>here with a 200 amp panel to feed my kilns and wishing I had (in the words
>of Tim the Toolman) "More Power"!!! Yes it will cost hundreds more but in
>the long run you're gonna need it.
>
>Jim Willett
>Out of the Fire Studio
>http://www.outofthefirestudio.com
>
>
David Hendley on thu 18 aug 05
I guess I don't understand why anyone thinks they need 400 amp
electric service. Do you plan on running 3 or 4 electric kilns at the
same time?
Any time you go larger than conventional "homeowner" specifications
the costs increase dramatically.
A 200 amp meter base was $30 last time I checked.
200 amps is plenty for a one-person pottery studio. Mine has 100
amp service. I can run my Paragon A99 (a large kiln), my welder, my
5 HP pugmill, and my 2 HP clay mixer - just maybe not all at the same
time (why would I ever want to weld and mix clay at the same time?).
I ran 200 amps to my house since it was new construction, but we
don't even use half of that either.
I got the coop to run the line underground just before they changed the
policy to charging extra for going underground. I would have paid extra
for it - it looks much nicer.
David Hendley
I don't know nothin' but the blues, cobalt that is.
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
> First, the electricion that has been advising us is back from vacation,
> and
> called yesterday. I told him I had definately decided to go with the 200
> amp service. He claims to have told me this the day he was out (not but
> 48
> hours after the fire), but I guess I was too rattled to hear him the first
> time, because it sounded new to me. I was shocked and dissapointed.
>
> Three grand. Turns out from the transformer to the pole/meter base in the
> yard, the wire is rated only to 300. And furthermore, the electric co-op
> is requiring that any upgrades go under ground. (it's currently overhead)
> So, a 600 dollar fee, another ditch, a 700 dollar 400 amp meter base, all
> that 4 ought wire, and thats just to get to the middle of the front yard.
> Then on to the studio, another 1500 bucks. Whine whine, complain
> complain. Sorry.
Leland Hall on thu 18 aug 05
Oops, didn't communicate clearly. Apologies.
We're not trying to get 400 amps to the studio. We agree that 200 is
ideal. It's just that the service to the property is only capable of
handling 300. House requires 200, that leaves 100 for the shop as things
currently stand. So the goal would be to have a total of 400 to the
property, which means we have to back clear up to the transformer out on
the street. Hope I did better that time.
Leland Hall
Before The Wheel Enterprises
La Pine, Oregon
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:32:48 -0500, David Hendley wrote:
>I guess I don't understand why anyone thinks they need 400 amp
>electric service. Do you plan on running 3 or 4 electric kilns at the
>same time?
>Any time you go larger than conventional "homeowner" specifications
>the costs increase dramatically.
>A 200 amp meter base was $30 last time I checked.
>
>200 amps is plenty for a one-person pottery studio. Mine has 100
>amp service. I can run my Paragon A99 (a large kiln), my welder, my
>5 HP pugmill, and my 2 HP clay mixer - just maybe not all at the same
>time (why would I ever want to weld and mix clay at the same time?).
>I ran 200 amps to my house since it was new construction, but we
>don't even use half of that either.
>I got the coop to run the line underground just before they changed the
>policy to charging extra for going underground. I would have paid extra
>for it - it looks much nicer.
>
>David Hendley
>I don't know nothin' but the blues, cobalt that is.
>david@farmpots.com
>http://www.farmpots.com
Tom at Hutchtel.net on thu 18 aug 05
Hi Again Leland....
Glad to heara there is some salvage in the building. I hear the cost of the
electric and what they are forcing you to do (underground) that isn't really
necessary....but that, I guess is now the way of the world.
> This is depressing, but I'm trying to keep my chin up. I'm frustrated
> with
> how long it's taken to gather the information CERF needs, our lives may be
> on a very different course
> now. I've always been a "bull by the horns" kind of guy, very goal
> oriented, proud to be captain of my ship, so to speak. You know, create
> your luck. So I'm very uncomfortable with this "which way is the wind
> gonna go?" stuff. I feel like an ant being asked to disassembe Mt
> everest. I know where to start, but jeeze----
>
> Other days, I have notions of grabbing a back pack and just walking away.
> Stupid thought, I know. I slap it down and carry on with whatever task is
> in front of me.
I know exactly the feeling. I kept a small notebook in my pocket at all
times....both to record all the stuff that was going to have to be done and
list stuff I needed to get on trips into town. It is truly overwhelming at
times. Somewhere in the middle of it someone asked....So what would you
have done if the whole thing had gone to the ground? Told her that was not
something I could spend time thinking about....too much to do right in front
of me. You will feel much better once construction gets going. the periods
of waiting get unbearable.
Just keep thinking lemonade.
Best....
Tom Wirt
Mayssan Shora Farra on thu 18 aug 05
Hello Leland;
When we wired my stdio we found it better to just pull a new 200 amp to
the studio, that way keeping it seperate as part of studio expences since
it comes on a sperate bill and it turned out cheaper this way where we
live. Maybe that way it can be done above ground since it will be less
than 300, just an idea to mull.
Mayssan
in not so hot anymore Charleston WV
htp://www.clayvillepottery,com
David Hendley on thu 18 aug 05
Well Leland, I still don't understand why you want to spend all that
money and do this.
I like to keep my business and home utilities totally separate. Any
accountant you talk to will tell you to do this because you have
rock-solid, undisputable deductions for your business.
If I were starting from scratch, I would run 200 amps to my house
and 200 amps to my shop. 2 lines, 2 meters, 2 accounts.
Where I live the cost of running the service from the transformer
to the meter base is paid for by the electric coop, unless more than
one additional pole needs to be installed (over 200 feet, I think).
In your case, I would keep the 200 amp service to my house and
run new 200 amp service to my shop. Any expenses would be
paid by the business.
As you say you are doing things now, your personal and business
expenses are completely tangled together.
Best of luck,
David Hendley
I don't know nothin' but the blues, cobalt that is.
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
> Oops, didn't communicate clearly. Apologies.
>
> We're not trying to get 400 amps to the studio. We agree that 200 is
> ideal. It's just that the service to the property is only capable of
> handling 300. House requires 200, that leaves 100 for the shop as things
> currently stand. So the goal would be to have a total of 400 to the
> property, which means we have to back clear up to the transformer out on
> the street. Hope I did better that time.
>
> Leland Hall
> Before The Wheel Enterprises
> La Pine, Oregon
>
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