Spencer Wilson on mon 1 aug 05
Hello,
About the electrical issues. Go for the 200 amp breaker for the studio. You
can always grow into it. The other IMPORTANT issue is the wiring. I have
discussed wiring with our plant maintenance personnel. They say that you
should use solid rather that stranded wire. Solid conductor wire will cost a
little more than stranded but it worth it in savings in the long run. If
your code requires a minimum of say 12 gauge wire you should go up to the
next thickest gauge( from a 12 to a 10, or 10 to an 8 gauge). They say that
this will keep the temparature of your wiring down. Solid wiring is cooler
and will withstand a greater draw of current. One of my maintenance techs
installed to this standard for his machine shop which uses alot of power and
has found a significant decrease in his power consumption. Hot wiring draws
more power.
Sincerely
Spencer R. Wilson
Carr. Fresnillo-Est. San Jose KM 7
Quinta Bonilla, 2da Casa Der.
Colonia Morfin Chavez
Fresnillo, Zacatecas, Mexico CP 99150
srwilson0317@hotmail.com
Potters Council Charter Member
"Life is sweet, savor it"
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on mon 1 aug 05
Hi Spencer, Leyland,
I would see no harm just to go to the "8" Gauge in the first place.
Too, if one is on a budget, one could grab that ( now famous?) twelve-pack
of 'Dr.Pepper' (and or 'Bud' or something, hell, even a six pack of
'Newcastle' or something, ) and go visit the side entrance of some
Electrical Supply Houses or the drivers of those Trucls parked in their lots
who are shopping there, or, to visit some Electrical Contractor's
Home-Bases, who might have a spool or two with some annoyingly short lengths
on them, which lengths might just be enough for one's job.
That, or visit some recylcers, to whom 'Copper' is a mainstay in all it's
forms, and Wire, new and used, among them.
If a good coil of solid No. "8" or the likes is found at a recyslers, one
could do an resistance or OHMS test or something to assure one's self of
it's continuity and so on, as well as to inspect it visually.
And be a happy boy...
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Spencer Wilson"
> Hello,
>
> About the electrical issues. Go for the 200 amp breaker for the studio.
You
> can always grow into it. The other IMPORTANT issue is the wiring. I have
> discussed wiring with our plant maintenance personnel. They say that you
> should use solid rather that stranded wire. Solid conductor wire will cost
a
> little more than stranded but it worth it in savings in the long run. If
> your code requires a minimum of say 12 gauge wire you should go up to the
> next thickest gauge( from a 12 to a 10, or 10 to an 8 gauge). They say
that
> this will keep the temparature of your wiring down. Solid wiring is cooler
> and will withstand a greater draw of current. One of my maintenance techs
> installed to this standard for his machine shop which uses alot of power
and
> has found a significant decrease in his power consumption. Hot wiring
draws
> more power.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Spencer R. Wilson
Bruce Girrell on tue 2 aug 05
Spencer Wilson wrote:
> They say that you should use solid rather that stranded wire.
> Solid wiring is cooler and will withstand a greater draw of current.
I would like to see the justification for this. The cross-sectional area of
stranded wire is the same as for solid. At low frequencies there should be
no difference. At high frequencies, the stranded wire will perform better.
Solid wire, especially at the gauges that we are discussing here - #8, #6,
etc. - is extremely difficult to work with and it can be hard to get a good
solid connection. Stranded wire is much more flexible and the strands crush
as compression is applied at the connector, allowing more surface area of
the wire to come in contact with the connector, providing a better contact.
If you don't have good contacts, the thickness of the remainder of the
circuit may be a moot point.
>One of my maintenance techs
>installed to this standard for his machine shop which uses alot of power
and
>has found a significant decrease in his power consumption. Hot wiring draws
>more power.
Motors, when they are running under no load, require little power to keep
spinning. As load is applied, they draw more power. Since the supply voltage
is fixed, this means that they must draw more current. If the wire is
undersized it will heat up, which increases its resistance, which in turn
drops the voltage available at the motor, which means that the motor must
pull even more current to supply the required power (which heats the wire
more, which ...).
Kilns are essentially a purely resistive load. A kiln will pull a certain
amount of current, determined by the resistance of its elements and its
supply voltage. If the wiring to the kiln is undersized, the voltage at the
elements of the kiln drops, the current drawn by the kiln drops, and the
kiln draws less power (meaning that it will be harder to get to peak
temperature and at the same time the insulation on the wiring in your walls
may be melting). So there is a big difference between the way circuits work
in a machine shop and in a kiln shed.
Having said all that, it never hurts to oversize the supply wires to your
kiln. Just be sure that the breaker is determined by the kiln current draw,
not the ampacity of the wiring. In other words, if you kiln draws 50 amperes
you need to use at least #6 wiring to supply it and you should use a 60 amp
breaker. You could, if your pocketbook allowed it, use #2 wire, especially
if you had a long run from the service panel to the kiln. Number 2 wire is
rated for 95 amps (not more than three conductors in a raceway, 140 deg. F
temp rise). But you should still protect the circuit with a 60 amp breaker.
Bruce "remember Reddy Kilowatt?" Girrell
http://www.toonopedia.com/reddy_k.htm
Leland Hall on tue 2 aug 05
Very good information Bruce. Thanks. I'm printing ALL this stuff out for
future study and reference.
Leland Hall
Before The Wheel
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on tue 2 aug 05
Hi Bruce,
I do remember 'Ready Kilowatt'...!
I think he is in an old amps home now, and doped-up unto a dazed shuffle and
dampness...and an embarassment to his dishonorable grifter raketeer
successors ( emprisoners more like it) ...kinda like old Rudolf Hess was to
his 'sucessors' and tormentors maybe, or then again, maybe not egg-zactly,
but they both were ambassadors of sorts...and neither got to say their
piece.
He never would have been ripping me off like 'nevada power' does
routinely...('Ready' I mean, but for that matter, neither would
Rudy...sigh...)...
I hope old 'Ready' can make an escape and Zapp the bastards right between
their horns...or even in their other tender places, just for good
measure...Zapp 'em good, too...real good.
'enron' and so on, you know, all of 'em...from their stench ridden 'tops' on
'down'.
But anyway...
Yes...I allways thought it is best to have a much heftier gauge than one
technically needed for any run to Motors or heavy draws.
As a naive layman, I wonder if there may be advantage to soldered 'ends'
fitted to spigoted Copper terminals which then bolt securely, rather then
these cheezy 'squish' or pinch methods one sees in Breakers and Panels and
so on, or, the very lackluster little confinement 'clip' in which an Allen
screw bears down on the sorry 'end'...such compromises as invite corrosion
and resistance and just 'look' bad from the get-go to me anyway...
Love,
Phil
el ve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Girrell"
> Spencer Wilson wrote:
>
> > They say that you should use solid rather that stranded wire.
> > Solid wiring is cooler and will withstand a greater draw of current.
>
> I would like to see the justification for this. The cross-sectional area
of
> stranded wire is the same as for solid. At low frequencies there should be
> no difference. At high frequencies, the stranded wire will perform better.
> Solid wire, especially at the gauges that we are discussing here - #8, #6,
> etc. - is extremely difficult to work with and it can be hard to get a
good
> solid connection. Stranded wire is much more flexible and the strands
crush
> as compression is applied at the connector, allowing more surface area of
> the wire to come in contact with the connector, providing a better
contact.
> If you don't have good contacts, the thickness of the remainder of the
> circuit may be a moot point.
>
> >One of my maintenance techs
> >installed to this standard for his machine shop which uses alot of power
> and
> >has found a significant decrease in his power consumption. Hot wiring
draws
> >more power.
>
> Motors, when they are running under no load, require little power to keep
> spinning. As load is applied, they draw more power. Since the supply
voltage
> is fixed, this means that they must draw more current. If the wire is
> undersized it will heat up, which increases its resistance, which in turn
> drops the voltage available at the motor, which means that the motor must
> pull even more current to supply the required power (which heats the wire
> more, which ...).
>
> Kilns are essentially a purely resistive load. A kiln will pull a certain
> amount of current, determined by the resistance of its elements and its
> supply voltage. If the wiring to the kiln is undersized, the voltage at
the
> elements of the kiln drops, the current drawn by the kiln drops, and the
> kiln draws less power (meaning that it will be harder to get to peak
> temperature and at the same time the insulation on the wiring in your
walls
> may be melting). So there is a big difference between the way circuits
work
> in a machine shop and in a kiln shed.
>
> Having said all that, it never hurts to oversize the supply wires to your
> kiln. Just be sure that the breaker is determined by the kiln current
draw,
> not the ampacity of the wiring. In other words, if you kiln draws 50
amperes
> you need to use at least #6 wiring to supply it and you should use a 60
amp
> breaker. You could, if your pocketbook allowed it, use #2 wire, especially
> if you had a long run from the service panel to the kiln. Number 2 wire is
> rated for 95 amps (not more than three conductors in a raceway, 140 deg. F
> temp rise). But you should still protect the circuit with a 60 amp
breaker.
>
> Bruce "remember Reddy Kilowatt?" Girrell
> http://www.toonopedia.com/reddy_k.htm
Bruce Girrell on tue 2 aug 05
Phil in el vee wrote:
>I wonder if there may be advantage to soldered 'ends'
>fitted to spigoted Copper terminals which then bolt securely
This is definitely the clean way to do it. When properly secured using a
washer and bolt, these connectors provide a large surface area for the
connection. In heavy power circuits (I used to design the electrical portion
of steel mills - DC motors up to 50,000 HP), they silver plate the
connections just to be sure. Silver oxide is conductive, whereas copper
oxide isn't. No need for that at our piddly little currents, though...
unless you're someone like Phil, who would do the silver plate just cause it
looks so good that way.
Bruce "plus, Phil would engrave each connector with the terminal number"
Girrell
Steve Slatin on tue 2 aug 05
Bruce --
Stranded is certainly easier to work with and "skin
effect" is good for voltage xmission at very high
frequencies. IIRC, though, solid is much better for
amperage, so it's often used for very high demand
circuits.
Steve S.
--- Bruce Girrell wrote:
> I would like to see the justification for this. The
> cross-sectional area of
> stranded wire is the same as for solid. At low
> frequencies there should be
> no difference. At high frequencies, the stranded
> wire will perform better.
> Solid wire, especially at the gauges that we are
> discussing here - #8, #6,
> etc. - is extremely difficult to work with and it
> can be hard to get a good
> solid connection. Stranded wire is much more
> flexible and the strands crush
> as compression is applied at the connector, allowing
> more surface area of
> the wire to come in contact with the connector,
> providing a better contact.
> If you don't have good contacts, the thickness of
> the remainder of the
> circuit may be a moot point.
>
Steve Slatin --
Drove downtown in the rain
9:30 on a Tuesday night
Just to check out the
Late night record shop
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