Dori Grandstrand on mon 1 aug 05
Hello All,
A few days back there was quite some discussion on the value of throwing mugs and producing hundreds of thrown items in a single day. My dilemma as a novice potter is that I have never taken a throwing class, and, alas, my throwing speed is painstakingly slow. While I don't envision being a high-production potter, I would like to get to the point where my labor is more cost-effective; for instance, if I can spend only a few hours in the studio, I'd like to be able to produce as much as possible. My ultimate aim is to produce some unique pieces of pottery, supplemented by some production-type wares. I'd like to be able to crank out some mugs, when necessary, but not quite in the hundreds category.
Are there a few throwers out there who can lend me their wisdom about more efficient throwing? Should I save my pennies for a throwing class (which might take me a year or two to save for) or is there a way to challenge oneself by short, intense periods of throwing? Are there things I can do to "speed" up the process? Ultimately, I believe that a well-made mug is the primary goal, but I'd like to take less time than I currently do to produce one.
On the brighter side of things, I've been "playing" with clay for almost five years, and in that time I've learned a great deal about the "other" aspects of pottery, such as mixing my own glazes and slips, firing, etc., and owe a great deal to the generosity and encouragement of the members of Clayart. I have a few glazes I'm happy with, and know just enough to realize I'll keep busy for the next 20 or 30 years and still not tap the depths of pottery.
--- Dori Grandstrand, Sultanarts
Charan Sachar on mon 1 aug 05
Hi Dori,
I know exactly what you are talking about. I was in the same position some
time back and felt that it took me forever to make one mug. And because
the time between making mugs was so long, that they never turned out the
same, or I couldn't redo what I had done before. What really helped is
organization and discipline. I know, I know,.. it sounds like I removed
all the fun out of throwing pots, but it helps. Some simple rules.
Pick a simple form and devote your time to making that form for the few
hours that day. eg,.Nothing else but making mugs.
Take your 25# bag of clay and measure out equal balls of clay and have it
ready for throwing. Start with 10 and then you can keep adding 2 more the
next time you throw mugs. Very soon you will be finishing a bag of clay
every time you sit to throw.
Now it is very important to keep the clay, all your tools next to you,
your ware boards, towel if you need one etc... everything within an arm's
reach. Put on some good music and throw just the same form.
I always do this when I am stressed and need to forget everything and just
focus on one thing. You will be surprised how fast you will start cranking
out stuff. Then you will hate the fact that you can make it so fast, so
now you have to trim it faster, bisque it sooner, glaze it faster and then
sell it faster... or it all keeps collecting.
Have fun
Charan
Federal way, WA
www.creativewithclay.com
Cindi Anderson on mon 1 aug 05
Hi
You should try speed throwing. You make up 20 or so balls of clay, set your
timer and give yourself 3 minutes per piece. You don't have to keep any of
these, but you might find a few you want to keep. This really helps you
learn not to spend too much time fiddling. You will find that you don't
need the clay centered "perfectly", you will get more confident, your clay
doesn't get all soggy and wet from fiddling too long which causes it to
collapse, etc.
Cindi
Reno, NV
----- Original Message ----- > Are there a few throwers out there who can
lend me their wisdom about more efficient throwing?
m.mshelomi on mon 1 aug 05
I get this kind of question from my students frequently.
My answer is always the same:
Were you a piano player, you would not expect to
become a player of concert quality without hours,
days, weeks, months, years of practice of at least
6-8 hours a day, day in and day out?
Well, other than practice, practice, practice,
I know of no short cuts.
Wedge up bunches of clay so you do not have
to get up for anything, sit down and throw...
pottermim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dori Grandstrand"
To:
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: Mugs, Money, and Production Throwing
">>> Are there things I can do to "speed" up the process? Ultimately, I
believe that a well-made mug is the primary goal, but I'd like to take less
time than I currently do to produce one.>>>"
Elizabeth Priddy on mon 1 aug 05
ok, this is harsh. But anyway....
adult swim...not for tender-hearts and
those who cry easily.
nuff said:
As long as you think of it as "playing" you
will never get fast.
People who "play with mud" are not potters
in my opinion. That is what the children in my
classes did. I know some people think I am an
ass for saying that calling it mud is wrong-headed.
I don't care. Fire some mud from your yard
and some clay. It is not the same thing, and words
mean things. Perhaps you mean muck, the generic
term for unclean leavings. But you can't make
pots out of mud and if you do they are indeed just
mudpies.
So stop thinking about it as a toy if you want to
take it beyond mudpies. And yes, you need a class.
Five years and still not being able to make pots with
any efficiancy is just ridiculous. You are wasting your
own time. You need direction you do not have internally.
As I said, this is harsh. Maybe harsh is what you need.
Or just throw this post to the trash and keep on going for
another five years.
One of my apprentices went on to name her pottery
"Muddworks". She still is not making a living at it. I think
that attitude is a large part of the problem. Making a living
is not a game. Being a professional is not a game. Clay is
not mud and work is not play. Her husband convinced her
that she was "ready" to go it on her own. We both knew
he was wrong. Three years later, still no quitting the day job.
(Meanwhile his career ambitions are well under way. Easy
to do when somebody else is raising your kids and doing
the nine to five. And some people wonder why the elder,
elite potters are usually men.)
Get your terms right and then practice til you are sore.
The pianist post was right on the money. If you hear a
pianist play a song and someone who has not practiced
enough to be called a pianist, the proof is in the music.
The proof is in the pots, for anyone in doubt of whether
they are a potter. Just because you made it with your
precious little hands is just not good enough. It also has
to be good. Functional if for use. Aestheticly pleasing if
for beauty. And thought-provoking if for art.
And fast and consistent for production.
E
Dori Grandstrand wrote:
Hello All,
...
Are there a few throwers out there who can lend me their wisdom about more efficient throwing? Should I save my pennies for a throwing class (which might take me a year or two to save for) or is there a way to challenge oneself by short, intense periods of throwing? Are there things I can do to "speed" up the process? Ultimately, I believe that a well-made mug is the primary goal, but I'd like to take less time than I currently do to produce one.
On the brighter side of things, I've been "playing" with clay for almost five years, and in that time I've learned a great deal about the "other" aspects of pottery, such as mixing my own glazes and slips, firing, etc., and owe a great deal to the generosity and encouragement of the members of Clayart. I have a few glazes I'm happy with, and know just enough to realize I'll keep busy for the next 20 or 30 years and still not tap the depths of pottery.
--- Dori Grandstrand, Sultanarts
______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Elizabeth Priddy
252-504-2622
1273 Hwy 101
Beaufort, NC 28516
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
*If you are an extra-sensitive
or easily-offended type:
Remember that what I say is obviously
just my opinion based on my experiences
and that I, like most people, don't go around
intending to step on toes and make folks cry.
Take it with a grain of salt.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Farfl's House on mon 1 aug 05
Hi, Dori;
I recommend Robin Hopper's instructional videos.
If you don't want to invest of a set of your own, you can rent them at
http://technicalvideorental.com
As a matter of fact, there's a wealth of clay-related instructional
videos there to rent!
Tell them I recommended their site to you.
Best Regards,
Steven Lederman
Dori Grandstrand wrote:
>Hello All,
>
> Are there a few throwers out there who can lend me their wisdom about more efficient throwing? Should I save my pennies for a throwing class (which might take me a year or two to save for) or is there a way to challenge oneself by short, intense periods of throwing?
>
>
Cindy Gatto on mon 1 aug 05
If you want to make pots than you have to make pots Don't think about
production lines or one of a kinds just make pots and yes take a class if you can't
afford it try doing a barter like helping in a studio for a class
Cindy Gatto & Mark Petrin
The Mudpit
228 Manhattan Ave
Brooklyn, NY 11206
718-218-9424
_www.mudpitnyc.com_ (http://www.mudpitnyc.com/)
mudpitnyc@aol.com
David Heard on tue 2 aug 05
Dori,
From one student to another, and with the understanding this is my approach
... I have found I go through a process of learning. Slow till I get the
mechanics down, then once thats accomplished setting myself a goal works for
speed -- ex: 40 mugs whether 1 hour, 2, or 3 hours I throw till I get 40,
usually then I cut them and analyse. If you can't bring yourself to cut them
all at least cut half the best and half or all or the worst for comparison.
If you don't have enough clay throw till you run out.
I have also found using a clock works with a big sweep hand that I can see,
the thing for me at least the blasted thing makes me nervous cause I "feel"
like I am being timed. lol. Other things that can help speed up throwing
sets is throwing off the hump, having all your clay weighed out wedged and
ready to go, set a process e.g grab clay from right - throw pot - cut and
place on left ware board etc.
If you can afford to take classes - yes take them, if not get a really good
set of videos and use pause and rewind extensively. The biggest thing I had
to realize was that it will take me much longer to reach the plateau of 40
mugs per hour than the potter who throws each day 6-10 hours a day. Watching
video's of production potters is very enlightening.
Whatever happen enjoy the journey.
-Dave
Maxwell, Deborah on tue 2 aug 05
Dori -
Check out a book by Charles Counts, "Pottery Workshop: A study in the
making of pottery from idea to finished form." I'm sure you can find it
at the library or on eBay. He deals systematically with throwing forms
and moving on.
Deborah J. Bassett-Maxwell
Kimball, MI
Red Mudd Creations
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Dori
Grandstrand
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 2:33 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Mugs, Money, and Production Throwing
Hello All,
A few days back there was quite some discussion on the value of
throwing mugs and producing hundreds of thrown items in a single day.
My dilemma as a novice potter is that I have never taken a throwing
class, and, alas, my throwing speed is painstakingly slow. While I
don't envision being a high-production potter, I would like to get to
the point where my labor is more cost-effective; for instance, if I can
spend only a few hours in the studio, I'd like to be able to produce as
much as possible. My ultimate aim is to produce some unique pieces of
pottery, supplemented by some production-type wares. I'd like to be
able to crank out some mugs, when necessary, but not quite in the
hundreds category.
Are there a few throwers out there who can lend me their wisdom about
more efficient throwing? Should I save my pennies for a throwing class
(which might take me a year or two to save for) or is there a way to
challenge oneself by short, intense periods of throwing? Are there
things I can do to "speed" up the process? Ultimately, I believe that a
well-made mug is the primary goal, but I'd like to take less time than I
currently do to produce one.
On the brighter side of things, I've been "playing" with clay for
almost five years, and in that time I've learned a great deal about the
"other" aspects of pottery, such as mixing my own glazes and slips,
firing, etc., and owe a great deal to the generosity and encouragement
of the members of Clayart. I have a few glazes I'm happy with, and know
just enough to realize I'll keep busy for the next 20 or 30 years and
still not tap the depths of pottery.
--- Dori Grandstrand, Sultanarts
________________________________________________________________________
______
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Chuck Wagoner on tue 2 aug 05
E.P. said <>
> The proof is in the pots, for anyone in doubt of whether
> they are a potter.
Boy, I wish I had said it just like that.
A good mug/pot really can stand on its own.
Sort of like a reflection of the whole process.
I would argue that there is a fine balance between "Play" and "Machine
Headedness". Numbers are important, but still a by product of what is
really important, which should be making the pot you are working on at
the time and staying focused on that moment. This can give the same
satisfaction that one can get from different forms of play. Maybe for me
it is the difference between being "childlike" and "childish. Counting
pots can be counter productive if one is not careful. Work hard/ Play
hard, but don't get too caught up in the final score.
Many would agree that there must be an element of joy and eager desire
to throw if we hope to produce pots that dance and lift our spirits (and
sell). Is it playing? Maybe it is being happy ? Hmmm....I think it is
more like farming, a lot of hard work, but in the end if you do
everything right and get some good luck you might just have a good
harvest. The "delayed" rewards make it such a thrill year after year
that the wheel is still rewarding.
Veteran production potters can re-learn, from those that "play" with
clay to continue to be amazed at the infinite characteristics of clay
and the mystery of the firing process. Never lose that intial, "Wow,
this clay is cool."
Or I could have just said, "The Proof is in the Pots". E. Priddy
That really is the lowest common denominator. Well said,
Chuck Wagoner
Billie Creek Pottery
**rEaLiTy ChEcK**
Mixing glazes, pugging clay, and all that other stuff that goes with it
isn't much fun, certainly hardly playing, lucky the wheel is so
enjoyable.
bonnie staffel on tue 2 aug 05
One of the interesting aspects of learning to work in clay is to do a
turnabout and start teaching the processes. When I would take on a new
apprentice in my studio, I found that I would have to get them to get rid of
their old habits that were time wasters. My first advice, is to have a
certain place for a certain tool that you use repetitively, always put it
back and it will be there the next time you need it. Cutoff strings are a
big time loser. So I had them lay it across the water bucket, not dropped
wherever, sponges, do the same thing and I always lay the smoothing chamois
on the rim of the water bucket. These are little things, but looking for
them takes more time than the mug is worth. Have a ware board handy for
placing the mugs, if right handed, always place to the left so you don't
have to risk bumping the previous mug. These are just little things, but
they do add up to maybe five or ten minutes easily. You see, I paid my
apprentices to produce so time spent had to be on my side.
Another element of throwing that I also think is important for anyone, is
to get the basic form up quickly so that it has a fresh look, not tired from
being overworked or sitting soaking up throwing water as you are looking for
a certain tool. Having similar sized clay balls for the task is also good,
then you know where you are going with each one.
As a blatant plug for my newly edited DVD for Beginning Processes, it is a
good review for such time studies as I mentioned above as well as learning
to throw with good habits. I feel that one has to learn the rudiments of
throwing to enable you to make the pots of your creativity, finding your own
voice, so to speak.
Warm regards,
Bonnie Staffel
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
Charter Member Potters Council
Karen Latorre on tue 2 aug 05
Hi Dori,
The one thing I would strongly recommend, if you can afford it (time and
cost) is to take a week long advanced pottery class. There are a number of
schools that offer these kinds of classes.
This is what I did after having taken about 4 years of evening courses at
the local college (3 hours once a week). It gave me a very good dose of
reality and allowed me to see if this was truly something that a) I was
interested enough in to do "24 hours a day", and b) my body would hold up to
the full day at the wheel, day after day. In addition, my skill level
increased dramatically during the course of the week thanks to the focus and
practice I got there.
Regards,
Karen Latorre
www.karenlatorre.com (last updated July 15, 2005)
just north or Belleville, Ontario
_________________________________________________________________
Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented Microsoft®
SmartScreen Technology.
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the
first two months FREE*.
Elizabeth Priddy on tue 2 aug 05
As a vet, I can tell you that anyone who loses that
perspective quits and gets a better paying job with
benefits.
I still think clay is the best thing there is to get
in your hands.
I don't have to re-learn it, though. What beginers do not
understand is that hard work creates facility, a quality
of working where you do not have to think about "how"
anymore and instead work in a zone of "what".
That is what children have that it would be good to
embrace: a fearlessness. Adults are worried about
whether their work will survive the process, about
whether their critics will like it, about whether it is
right. Kids just don't go there.
Until you can make anything you want, when you want,
any size you want, the process is an endless struggle
with your materials. Facility generates fearlessness. You
know which processes work and which don't so you know
your range of possibility before you start.
That is why I feel the way I do about bought glaze. I have
picked my battles. Glaze is not one of them. Form is.
Production is. Ideation is. Surface is.
Right now I am working on time. Clayart is a welcome
place as I spend 90% of my waking time with a person
who cannot speak. The talking I do here with adults of
common interest is a high point of my day. And I type fast.
But he is learning to talk, so get it while you can.
E
Chuck Wagoner wrote:
...Veteran production potters can re-learn, from those that "play" with
clay to continue to be amazed at the infinite characteristics of clay
and the mystery of the firing process. Never lose that intial, "Wow,
this clay is cool."
Elizabeth Priddy
252-504-2622
1273 Hwy 101
Beaufort, NC 28516
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
*If you are an extra-sensitive
or easily-offended type:
Remember that what I say is obviously
just my opinion based on my experiences
and that I, like most people, don't go around
intending to step on toes and make folks cry.
Take it with a grain of salt.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail for Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on tue 2 aug 05
Elizabeth...!
What a happy and true array of mentions your post here shares...
Too, as an aside, I did not know you were a Vet..!
Is there an area amid Creaturedom in which you have specialized?
I sometimes need to pose a fast (hopefully succinct) quiry in Avian (usually
Columbiforme, sometimes Corvid or other ) matters, for which I am known to
show appreciations...
I have never had a 'job' that I could stand. (Well, I had very few, and
allways brief, but useful educational forays into THAT matter anyway they
were, even as say chewing aluminum-foil is 'educational'...since it alerts
one to better or more pleasing possibilities of diets and sensations...)
But for me, Work worth doing IS the 'benifits'...
As is being allowed to do it...(solitude I s'pose...or at least comrades,
and no 'bosses' )
'Jobs' (in the usual sense of the term anymore, ) seldom achieve this, by
their very structure...
You know this of course, and I am merely blathering a little...thankfully,
just a 'little'...
Love,
Phil
el ve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elizabeth Priddy"
> As a vet, I can tell you that anyone who loses that
> perspective quits and gets a better paying job with
> benefits.
>
> I still think clay is the best thing there is to get
> in your hands.
>
> I don't have to re-learn it, though. What beginers do not
> understand is that hard work creates facility, a quality
> of working where you do not have to think about "how"
> anymore and instead work in a zone of "what".
>
> That is what children have that it would be good to
> embrace: a fearlessness. Adults are worried about
> whether their work will survive the process, about
> whether their critics will like it, about whether it is
> right. Kids just don't go there.
>
> Until you can make anything you want, when you want,
> any size you want, the process is an endless struggle
> with your materials. Facility generates fearlessness. You
> know which processes work and which don't so you know
> your range of possibility before you start.
>
> That is why I feel the way I do about bought glaze. I have
> picked my battles. Glaze is not one of them. Form is.
> Production is. Ideation is. Surface is.
>
> Right now I am working on time. Clayart is a welcome
> place as I spend 90% of my waking time with a person
> who cannot speak. The talking I do here with adults of
> common interest is a high point of my day. And I type fast.
>
> But he is learning to talk, so get it while you can.
>
> E
>
> Chuck Wagoner wrote:
> ...Veteran production potters can re-learn, from those that "play" with
> clay to continue to be amazed at the infinite characteristics of clay
> and the mystery of the firing process. Never lose that intial, "Wow,
> this clay is cool."
>
>
>
> Elizabeth Priddy
>
> 252-504-2622
> 1273 Hwy 101
> Beaufort, NC 28516
> http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
Dori Grandstrand on wed 3 aug 05
I must thank everyone for such a wonderful discussion. I am not thin-skinned, so even the "harsher" sentiments are food for thought. I would especially like to thank Chuck Wagoner, Lee Love, and David Woof for their responses. You seemed to especially understand where I was coming from. I call it "playing" because even after 4-5 years (part-time, by necessity, for now), I am still engaged with wonder -- still a learner.
I haven't settled into any particular aspect of pottery because I am continuing to experiment with form, design, glazes, carving, etc. This is intentional on my part; I previously avoided "production" or concentration on one aspect of clay because I felt that to concentrate on it too soon would sacrifice my creativity and exploration. I feel that clay offers so many wonderful possibiities: how will I know if I will one day have a body of work to express in "form" or "design", for instance, if I haven't also explored the other aspects of pottery? I am, however, trying to balance my play with a little more discipline, so I appreciate everyone's suggestions regarding "getting down to business" with down-to-earth suggestions regarding throwing repeat forms, such as cylinders. I will also try to find a few videos that were suggested, but whether I watch a teacher in person or on video, it looks like it still gets down to DOING it, and I understand that there are no shortcuts. It
is a long process, but that's all the more reason to have fun while you do it. Thank you all ... first thing in the morning I will "work" a little, by challenging myself with a clock and 20-30 balls o
f clay, then I will "play" a little, too.:) --- Dori Grandstrand, Sultanarts
-------------- Original message --------------
> Dori Grandstrand wrote:
>
> > Are there a few throwers out there who can lend me their wisdom about
> > more efficient throwing?
>
> > >On the brighter side of things, I've been "playing" with clay for
> > almost five years, and in that time I've learned a great deal about
> > the "other" aspects of pottery, such as mixing my own glazes and
> > slips, firing, etc.,
>
> Dear Dori , by all means, take a class. Keep working while you are
> saving up the money. But learning from someone who knows how is worth
> its weight in gold. And keep the playful spirit. It is the key to
> keeping life in your pots. Shimaoka once said that Hamada told him
> that the most important thing about keeping life in your work, is to do
> it with joy in your heart. That is where all the feeling comes from.
>
> --- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Priddy wrote:
>
> > ok, this is harsh. But anyway....
> > adult swim...not for tender-hearts
>
> This is really boring Elizabeth. You can really cut out the
> disclaimers. We got the picture a while ago.
>
> > As long as you think of it as "playing" you
> > will never get fast.
>
> Fast isn't everything. Not everybody is going to knock quickly
> made cheap stuff. Hamada's "Joyful heart" was called "Beginner's
> Mind" by one zen teacher. We all have different approaches. None of
> us are learning it the same way.
>
>
> > People who "play with mud" are not potters
> > in my opinion.
>
> Please help us care about your opinions Elizabeth. Don't run with
> sicssors. Play nicely with others. ;-)
>
> --
> Lee Love
> in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
> http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs
>
> "The way we are, we are members of each other. All of us. Everything.
> The difference ain't in who is a member and who is not, but in who knows it and
> who don't."
>
> -- Burley Coulter (Wendell Berry)
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Lee Love on wed 3 aug 05
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Wagoner wrote:
> Veteran production potters can re-learn, from those that "play" with
> clay
　 This is true. When I had studio space at Northern Clay Center, I
really enjoyed seeing the work of new students throwing.
I also learned a lot seeing their glaze experiments. They often did
things "you are not supposed to do" and while usually they didn't work,
sometimes they did. And it gave me clues for my own experiments.
After my 3 year apprenticeship, it took me almost 2 years to "unlearn"
my training. Precision and "over carefulness" was sunk into my bones. I
had to consciously work at getting the "playfulness" back in.
>
> Mixing glazes, pugging clay, and all that other stuff that >goes with
it isn't much fun, certainly hardly playing,
>lucky the wheel is so enjoyable.
When you really get yourself into the process you forget about difficult
or enjoyable. Like Eihei Dogen says, "You treat the rice cooking pot as
your own head." When you do this, even menial jobs are not so difficult.
One of my favorite jobs at my teacher's workshop was "maki hakabi" or,
wood moving. We would do the Chinese fire drill and make a line of
people to transport the wood from one place to another. It was
difficult, especially at this time of the year, but there was a joy in
the repetativeness, how the wood smelled and how each bundle was the
same, but different.
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs
"We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded
with a sleep."
--Prospero
Lee Love on wed 3 aug 05
Dori Grandstrand wrote:
> Are there a few throwers out there who can lend me their wisdom about
> more efficient throwing?
> >On the brighter side of things, I've been "playing" with clay for
> almost five years, and in that time I've learned a great deal about
> the "other" aspects of pottery, such as mixing my own glazes and
> slips, firing, etc.,
Dear Dori , by all means, take a class. Keep working while you are
saving up the money. But learning from someone who knows how is worth
its weight in gold. And keep the playful spirit. It is the key to
keeping life in your pots. Shimaoka once said that Hamada told him
that the most important thing about keeping life in your work, is to do
it with joy in your heart. That is where all the feeling comes from.
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Priddy wrote:
> ok, this is harsh. But anyway....
> adult swim...not for tender-hearts
This is really boring Elizabeth. You can really cut out the
disclaimers. We got the picture a while ago.
> As long as you think of it as "playing" you
> will never get fast.
Fast isn't everything. Not everybody is going to knock quickly
made cheap stuff. Hamada's "Joyful heart" was called "Beginner's
Mind" by one zen teacher. We all have different approaches. None of
us are learning it the same way.
> People who "play with mud" are not potters
> in my opinion.
Please help us care about your opinions Elizabeth. Don't run with
sicssors. Play nicely with others. ;-)
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs
"The way we are, we are members of each other. All of us. Everything.
The difference ain't in who is a member and who is not, but in who knows it and who don't."
-- Burley Coulter (Wendell Berry)
joethepotter1948 on wed 3 aug 05
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, David Heard wrote:
> If you can afford to take classes - yes take them, if not get a
really good
> set of videos and use pause and rewind extensively. Watching
> video's of production potters is very enlightening.
>
> Whatever happen enjoy the journey.
>
> -Dave
>
David wrote several good thoughts here that I want to comment on:
1) "Taking classes." You can either pay in money or trade-outs for
classes now, or pay with time and materials going through a longer
learning process on your own. Either way, "life ain't free". ;)
2) "Videos are enlightening". Whether you choose to go this route
or with classes, or even both ways, keep in mind that everybody
comes into a rhythm with the clay a little differently. Be patient,
concentrate on what you're doing, and it'll come to you in time.
The more classes you take and the more videos you study over and
over, combined with practice practice practice practice practice,
the shorter the time you'll spend getting good at it. That's just
the plain truth to the matter, IMHO. Concentrate on one thing at a
time; center till you are good at it and it feels easy to do, then
do the same with opening up till that comes easy, then with raising
a cylinder, and finally with shaping it into something useful and
attractive; don't get frustrated by trying to throw a world-class
piece from the git-n-go; it simply doesn't happen.
3) "Enjoy the journey." AMEN! If you don't enjoy the journey,
take another route because life is too short to waste it being a
slave to something you aren't enjoying (and that even includes mass
producing pottery if that's not your thing!) No job pays enough to
be miserable doing it for very long. Sure, we all do some things we
don't really enjoy doing, just to make an income sometimes, but I
would suggest that you work at finding a way to make a living doing
something you enjoy. You might even make that "something" plural;
I've done a lot of things, and, looking back, they were all not only
interesting pieces of the whole puzzle, but also necessary steps to
making me the Me I am today. Making pots IS fun; do what you have
to to KEEP it fun.
Embrace courage, develop the ability to laugh at yourself, and be
generous with your hammer. :)
Joe
Bottom line? You guessed it: The hardest pottery tool to master is
the HAMMER!
Snail Scott on wed 3 aug 05
At 10:18 AM 8/2/2005 -0700, you wrote:
Elizabeth...I did not know you were a Vet..!
Elizabeth was following up on a statement about
'veteran' production throwers, not military service
or animal medicine. ;)
-Snail
Elizabeth Priddy on wed 3 aug 05
I was convinced by your original question
that you already knew what you needed to
do, go out and throw lots and lots of pots.
I had put many references in how to practice
and learn throwing in the archives years ago.
I believed, as a teacher, as a friend to you and
every person who wants to learn how to make
pots, that what you needed was an urge to
piss or get off the pot. (how appropo)
And that admonition is indeed harsh. I have given
it to myself recently. I didn't care for it. Refused
to listen for a while. Then realized I was being
childish and petulant and got my ass up and went
to work. I did not take it well so I fully expected
others to think I was just being an ass and put the
disclaimers up. I was not being cute. I have not
been "cute" in quite a few years. Sarcastic, harsh,
analytical, critical, too-serious, but not cute.
So of course, I get beaten up a little by our resident
bully. So what? He has his own axe to grind, daily.
As you quoted him here again, bashing me and trying
to make me look stupid, I will address that here, once.
Nothing else worth saying about him.
But I would offer this to you. The best work and learning
frequently comes from a stick rather than a carrot.
As any diabetic can tell you, cooked carrots are full of
sugar and will make you fat, the sticks make you run faster.
(Please no threads about carrots. Not a Nutritionist,
just making a joke.)
Take it easy. But not too much. It seems you knew
what you were asking in the first place. You just wanted
someone to confirm your susicions or give you a push.
Consider youreself nudged. Gently, and with kind
intentions.
Good luck to you. There is a page of throwing tips
on my website that might help those mugs as well.
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com/pottery.html
E
Dori Grandstrand wrote:
I must thank everyone for such a wonderful discussion. I am not thin-skinned, so even the "harsher" sentiments are food for thought. I would especially like to thank Chuck Wagoner, Lee Love, and David Woof for their responses. You seemed to especially understand where I was coming from. I call it "playing" because even after 4-5 years (part-time, by necessity, for now), I am still engaged with wonder -- still a learner.
I haven't settled into any particular aspect of pottery because I am continuing to experiment with form, design, glazes, carving, etc. This is intentional on my part; I previously avoided "production" or concentration on one aspect of clay because I felt that to concentrate on it too soon would sacrifice my creativity and exploration. I feel that clay offers so many wonderful possibiities: how will I know if I will one day have a body of work to express in "form" or "design", for instance, if I haven't also explored the other aspects of pottery? I am, however, trying to balance my play with a little more discipline, so I appreciate everyone's suggestions regarding "getting down to business" with down-to-earth suggestions regarding throwing repeat forms, such as cylinders. I will also try to find a few videos that were suggested, but whether I watch a teacher in person or on video, it looks like it still gets down to DOING it, and I understand that there are no shortcuts. It
is a long process, but that's all the more reason to have fun while you do it. Thank you all ... first thing in the morning I will "work" a little, by challenging myself with a clock and 20-30 balls o
f clay, then I will "play" a little, too.:) --- Dori Grandstrand, Sultanarts
Elizabeth Priddy
252-504-2622
1273 Hwy 101
Beaufort, NC 28516
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
*If you are an extra-sensitive
or easily-offended type:
Remember that what I say is obviously
just my opinion based on my experiences
and that I, like most people, don't go around
intending to step on toes and make folks cry.
Take it with a grain of salt.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Doug Gray on wed 3 aug 05
Dori,
You've gotten plenty of practical advice. Follow it and I'm sure you will
notice an improvement. I did want to add something though regarding your
mental preparedness, as opposed to the physical practices mentioned.
Just a few things to keep in mind as you are working...
1. Don't believe your doubts. You can do more than you think you can do, I
promise that. Build faith in yourself and what you can accomplish. If you
find yourself saying, "I can't do that. I'm not strong enough, talented
enough, skilled enough." Don't give in to your own self doubt.
2. Don't despair over the days of small starts. A journey of one thousand
miles begins with just one step. It may be frustrating for you some days,
but even the smallest discovery or improvement is fruitful in the long run.
I've found that the best lessons are often learned after the greatest
failures. You may not want to celebrate the small starts; the small steps.
But, at least acknowledge them for what they are, progress, and keep working.
3. Trust your intuition. If you get the feeling you should hold you hands
a certain way, set up you work space in a certain way, make forms in a
certain way, trust your instincts. I'll take intuition over tradition any
day. Make your own work routine. Make your own work.
4. Understand that the prize is in the process, not the product. Hard to
do, I know, because the tendency is to look at the finished work to
determine if you need a pat on the back or a kick in the butt. Keep focused
on the process. The product will come.
5. Don't fall captive to competition and comparison. We all do it. And
you will too, but don't let these kinds of thoughts motivate or deter you.
Feel the thoughts and let them go. You are your own competition.
6. Sometimes less is more. Small changes might be the most appropriate.
Small victories might be the best. It is too easy to get caught up in
"showcasing." Keep it real. Keep it honest.
7. Understand that growth always comes with resistance. When you reach a
point where you think you can't do one more, try anyway. Or, if you
struggle to make a goal (a certain number, a particular form) don't stop
when the goal is reached. Keep going while you are in the flow. Exceed
your own expectations. Resistance will be there. It is only natural. Push
yourself to work through the resistance.
Now before you think I've completely lost my mind, let me explain where
these ideas came from. After a car accident last year I began some physical
therapy which included yoga classes to stretch and strengthen my neck and
spine. The therapy is long over but I've stuck with the yoga, because it
struck a cord with me deeper than just muscle strain and spinal alignment.
It really is an interesting approach to most things, clay included. The
tips I've listed above came from a yoga practice book, a section entitled
"The Seven Most Common Mental Mistakes in Yoga Practice - and How to Avoid
Them." I've simply taken those seven principles and applied them to my work
in clay. Hope they make some sense to you and that you find them helpful.
They say that 90% of any physical prowess is mental preparation.
Good Luck,
Doug (who is arguably 90% mental, 100% of the time)
Florence, SC
Kathi LeSueur on wed 3 aug 05
It always amazes me that people expect to become proficient throwers
without putting in the time to learn. If someone wants to play
basketball well they spend hours shooting hoops until they can do it in
their sleep. If they want to be a place kicker they spend hours everyday
kicking a football until they can split those goal posts with
confidence. The same devotion is necessary to become a good potter.
There are no short cuts. Just practice, practice, practice.
Kathi
Lee Love on thu 4 aug 05
joethepotter1948 wrote:
>Bottom line? You guessed it: The hardest pottery tool to master is
>the HAMMER!
Joe, my teacher's kiln is a unique noborigama. Every chamber has a different atmosphere: heavy ash in the firemouth, satin soft heavy reduction in the yohen chamber, the reduction chamber, the oxidation chamber and the salt chamber. What was interesting, is because the kiln is so complex, often things wouldn't turn out well in one chamber or the other. But it always seemed, that when you had a really bad firing in a chamber, one of the other chambers turned exceptional. Along with this variety was breaking a lot of pots. I have taken the hammer to pots from a single firing, that might have been sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars, if they would have came out good. Of course, he had us break pots that other people might keep, because of his standards.
Sure makes it easier to break my own pots. ;-)
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity."
-- Frank Leahy
| |
|
