Jim Willett on mon 8 aug 05
Paul wrote:
"I am interested in hearing what other potters are doing in these hard times
and how they have adapted, or are trying to adapt, to the situation on the
ground.
How is everyone else doing in these times?"................
Paul,
A couple of questions please. 50 shows a year? How? Where (physical
location) in the world are you? (OK, that's three questions.) It would be
interesting to hear how others are doing although some of this was probably
covered a while back in a previous discussion on shows.
Personally we just do the main wholesale gift show twice a year. We
quit doing retail craft shows as the market has pretty well changed to a
trinket buying crowd. The only way you can sell something is if you put it
on a stick. We were semi-seriously considering "pots on a stick" after the
last one we did. We think the day of the upscale craft sale is just about
run its course, in this part of the world.
Doing the Alberta Gift Show http://www.albertagiftshow.com/ makes it
much easier for us as we are located only a couple of blocks from the show
venue. The buyers come to see us ,place and order, we make it, and then we
ship everything to them at their expense. Everything we make is sold before
we make it.
That's how we are doing it.
Jim and Cindy
Out of the Fire Studio
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
http://www.outofthefirestudio.com
http://potblog.outofthefirestudio.com
Amanda Stickney on mon 8 aug 05
I haven't started just yet, as I just got out of school, but seeing the prices and hearing about them enough, has made me skeptical about staying wth my cone 10 work which I just 'found' in a way. I don't want to have to discover work all over again because of the economy, but I refuse to be the typical 'starving artist.' I of course am going to get another job until I can really build my studio, but I need to start saving info now. I'm also curious as Paul is...what are other alternatives to just plain gas and oil???
Amanda
>From: Paul B <PAUL@DOCRET.COM> >Reply-To: Clayart <CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG> >To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG >Subject: COULD OIL PRICES DRIVE A LOT OF POTTERS OUT OF BUSINESS? >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:46:49 -0400 > >i was just talking to a friend who does about 50 shows per year, i used to >work at his studio about 5 years ago before starting my own, and nothing >that he says about shows sounds very hopeful to me. Even big ones like Ann >Arbor are about 1/2 the sales he made a few years ago and practically every >show goes down a little more each year. The cost of gas to drive to these >shows in a fully loaded van seems to always go up as sales go down; and he >told me a lot of other potters he has been at the same shows as for years >all say the same thing. He
almost never even fires his gas kiln anymore due >to fuel costs, opting for cone 6 electric stuff now. There is more to the >story than that, but i can't help but wonder if there are a lot of other >potters in the same boat since oil prices affect both transportation costs >to shows and firing costs, not to mention consumer spending habits as well. > >I am interested in hearing what other potters are doing in these hard times >and how they have adapted, or are trying to adapt, to the situation on the >ground. > >About a year ago i realized high fuel prices were here to stay so i got >serious about using vegetable based fuels, first converting a diesel step >van to run on free, waste fryer oil from restaurants and now i am almost >ready to start firing my kiln exclusively with vegoil, using a
modified >Beckett diesel burner which, if used propery, should be capable of about >300,000 btu's per hour. I met some people who use them to heat their houses >and they showed me how to do it. >Although i don't do shows at all, i do make several long road trips a year >and a lot of short ones to deliver pottery to galleries i deal with and it >really helps to not have to stop at a single gas station except to get a >drink of water, plus my van is big enough to camp in and bring all the >pottery i can sell, any tools i may need and all the fuel i need for the >trip. >Firing with vegoil will cut my total operating expenses by at least 50%, >although it may take some trial and error to get things where i want them >to be so i am not saying i have it all figured out yet. I think i am pretty >close
though. > >How is everyone else doing in these times? > >thanks, >Paul > >______________________________________________________________________________ >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org > >You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/ > >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Paul B on mon 8 aug 05
i was just talking to a friend who does about 50 shows per year, i used to
work at his studio about 5 years ago before starting my own, and nothing
that he says about shows sounds very hopeful to me. Even big ones like Ann
Arbor are about 1/2 the sales he made a few years ago and practically every
show goes down a little more each year. The cost of gas to drive to these
shows in a fully loaded van seems to always go up as sales go down; and he
told me a lot of other potters he has been at the same shows as for years
all say the same thing. He almost never even fires his gas kiln anymore due
to fuel costs, opting for cone 6 electric stuff now. There is more to the
story than that, but i can't help but wonder if there are a lot of other
potters in the same boat since oil prices affect both transportation costs
to shows and firing costs, not to mention consumer spending habits as well.
I am interested in hearing what other potters are doing in these hard times
and how they have adapted, or are trying to adapt, to the situation on the
ground.
About a year ago i realized high fuel prices were here to stay so i got
serious about using vegetable based fuels, first converting a diesel step
van to run on free, waste fryer oil from restaurants and now i am almost
ready to start firing my kiln exclusively with vegoil, using a modified
Beckett diesel burner which, if used propery, should be capable of about
300,000 btu's per hour. I met some people who use them to heat their houses
and they showed me how to do it.
Although i don't do shows at all, i do make several long road trips a year
and a lot of short ones to deliver pottery to galleries i deal with and it
really helps to not have to stop at a single gas station except to get a
drink of water, plus my van is big enough to camp in and bring all the
pottery i can sell, any tools i may need and all the fuel i need for the
trip.
Firing with vegoil will cut my total operating expenses by at least 50%,
although it may take some trial and error to get things where i want them
to be so i am not saying i have it all figured out yet. I think i am pretty
close though.
How is everyone else doing in these times?
thanks,
Paul
Lee Love on tue 9 aug 05
Paul B wrote:
>How is everyone else doing in these times?
Paul,
I did my first pottery festival in Mashiko this spring. Fuel prices are higher here compared to back home. Everything: electricity, gas, oil and wood. It is driving potters out of business. When the prices first started getting high here (during the bombing of Iraq?) there was a news report on how oil prices were effecting businesses. They interviewed an Onsen operator (hot spring resort) and a potter. Imagine that happening in the States? Interviewing a potter about oil prices?
Anyway, several potters at the pottery festival were inerested in my kiln design, which costs me about $8.00 for a bisque and glaze firing (I burn scrap wood that only costs for delievery.) Oil prices are high and all the Red Pine is dying because of a blight.
--
Lee
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
"We can make our minds
so like still water
that beings gather about us
that they may see,...
....their own images, and so live for a moment with a clearer,
perhaps even with a fiercer life
because of our quiet." -- W. B. Yeats
Steve Slatin on tue 9 aug 05
Phil --
Some thoughts --
one, on oil and taxes -- a barrel of oil, 42 gals
volume traditionally yielded about 20 gallons of
gasoline (plus other saleable byproducts). The US
gasoline tax is 18.4 cents, state taxes vary but the
highest are around 30 cents (Rhode Island). That
doesn't help with the cost, but it's not the majority
of the cost.
Two, the formerly independent commodity markets in
fuel oil, coal, hydro and natural gas are converging
with the increasing number of marketed classes of
power. Natural gas generation facilities are cheap to
build and relatively clean; many utilities have one or
more as backups for emergencies. When the cost of one
fuel goes up, they use another to balance the costs.
Then you have the influence of markets -- Bonneville
Power hasn't built a new hydro dam in donkeys years,
but they have been raising their rates dramatically in
the last few -- the markets are becoming
interconnected. There's also a worldwide shortage of
natural gas, currently, and problems similar to oil in
terms of exploration, exploitation, and cost. My last
natural gas delivery was nearly $3 per gallon.
Your observations on inflation are most interesting.
The early '70s are a hard time to get a fix on,
though, as it was a high-inflation period and with
national wage and price controls (1971, Nixon) on some
items but not others, the market was distorted.
Some items have had price changes largely due to
government intervention (cigarettes being the best
example) but others track far below the general
inflation level.
I think to get a good feel for inflation over time you
have to start with an uncontrolled time and compare
with a later uncontrolled period. Maybe the early
'60s vs. the present? I'm not capable of remembering
prices back that far.
Best wishes -- Steve S.
-- Steve Slatin
--- pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
> Hi Amanda,
>
>
>
> Natural Gas will likely remain inexpensive in many
> areas for a long time.
>
> Kilns which fire on used lubricating and cooking
> Oils also will enjoy inexpensive running.
>
> Wood Kilns of course, if local fuel is abundant and
> cheap...but which of course require a lot more work
> to fire...
>
>
> The 'Oil' prices and 'Gas' prices you are hearing
> about are related to Gasolene and traditional
> Heating Oils, and not Natural Gas.
Steve Slatin --
Drove downtown in the rain
9:30 on a Tuesday night
Just to check out the
Late night record shop
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Louis Katz on tue 9 aug 05
When energy cost start to get up to 10 percent of the price of pots
things will have to change. The first thing is that quality will have
to go up to make a price hike possible. Pots will have to last longer,
can't pay 30 bucks for a plate and have it break after five years
because the glaze doesn't fit.. Just as our costs rise so will
industrial costs. There is at least some support in rising energy
prices for local production for local consumption especially if raw
materials are gathered locally... (see Clary Illian) . Good quality
plasticware (oxymoron?) may appear in the US. It has elsewhere. First
stuff I remember seeing was at the Sam Nee restaurant in the Inner
Sunset San Francisco. Plastic imitations of thrown pots. They could
almost fool you.
There are so many factors at work here, stay flexible. Above all don't
worry about worrying. Better to worry about not worrying. Be the best
at something and when energy costs go through the roof, you will still
be the best, no?
Why cone six? prepare for the future, cone 1? Anyone ever use concrete
pots?
Louis
http://www.tamucc.edu/~lkatz
On Aug 8, 2005, at 10:19 PM, Jim Willett wrote:
> Paul wrote:
> "I am interested in hearing what other potters are doing in these hard
> times
> and how they have adapted, or are trying to adapt, to the situation on
> the
> ground.
>
> How is everyone else doing in these times?"................
>
> Paul,
> A couple of questions please. 50 shows a year? How? Where
> (physical
> location) in the world are you? (OK, that's three questions.) It would
> be
> interesting to hear how others are doing although some of this was
> probably
> covered a while back in a previous discussion on shows.
> Personally we just do the main wholesale gift show twice a
> year. We
> quit doing retail craft shows as the market has pretty well changed to
> a
> trinket buying crowd. The only way you can sell something is if you
> put it
> on a stick. We were semi-seriously considering "pots on a stick" after
> the
> last one we did. We think the day of the upscale craft sale is just
> about
> run its course, in this part of the world.
> Doing the Alberta Gift Show http://www.albertagiftshow.com/
> makes it
> much easier for us as we are located only a couple of blocks from the
> show
> venue. The buyers come to see us ,place and order, we make it, and
> then we
> ship everything to them at their expense. Everything we make is sold
> before
> we make it.
> That's how we are doing it.
>
> Jim and Cindy
> Out of the Fire Studio
> Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
> http://www.outofthefirestudio.com
> http://potblog.outofthefirestudio.com
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
Louis Katz
Question Questioning
Earl Brunner on tue 9 aug 05
I think people will still buy pots. We might need to be more flexible in
how we market. Just because one type of venue passes out of fashion (for
what ever reason) doesn't mean that the market is gone. The venue may not
even be gone. But the pendulum might need to swing for awhile. The factors
making the shows bad isn't directly energy costs.
One good key might be to take a look at parts of the world where energy has
cost a LOT for awhile, like the UK or Europe. How are potters there
surviving? Don't be doom and gloom, be flexible.
And no Louis I've never used a concrete plate or mug, teapot might be rather
special though........
Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Louis Katz
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:45 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: COULD OIL PRICES DRIVE A LOT OF POTTERS OUT OF BUSINESS?
There are so many factors at work here, stay flexible. Above all don't
worry about worrying. Better to worry about not worrying. Be the best
at something and when energy costs go through the roof, you will still
be the best, no?
Why cone six? prepare for the future, cone 1? Anyone ever use concrete
pots?
Louis
http://www.tamucc.edu/~lkatz
Paul B on tue 9 aug 05
Jim,
my friend who does 50 shows per year (actually it is probably less now but
as of a couple years ago that what it was) has family memebers and
employees do some of the shows, some weekends they will be at three
different shows. He does this many because at one point he was really
making some serious money and had a number of skilled potters and
decorators working for him, now he is barely getting by but that is the
only way he knows how to do business. He is in Ohio where used to be many
great shows.
I learned from all that (this was where i apprenticed) that when i started
my own studio i was not going to do a single show. Actually i did one, a
July 4th bizarre-type thing while i was building my studio, just to sell
some seconds and get enough cash do buy the electrical stufff i needed to
wire the place and it worked just fine.
Paul
John Baymore on tue 9 aug 05
Hummmmmmmm...........
While fuel cost is certainly a real concern for potters..... it is not the
MAIN cost to produce your work. Nor are the raw materials. The
real "cost" is your TIME. The relationship between the fuel cost and the
labor cost is the real issue here, I think.
If you are "charging" for your time at something like $5.00 an hour......
then when the fuel cost increase factors into things as an additional $2.00
to $3.00 on that hour's labor production..... you have a real problem on
your hands in the pricing department. Your production cost just increased
something like 35% or 40% or so.
Yup....... that is enough to kill a business.
But if you are basing your hourly time "charge" more like $30.00 to 40.00
per hour to start with....... then that $2.00 increase is not really all
that big a deal......... more like a 5% increase. Of concern.... but not
typically "lethal".
And I think that labor figure above is FAR more realistic an hourly rate to
use for a skilled craftsman. Looked at your car mechanic or carpenter's
bill lately? I think this fuel issue will hurt those that are not
already valuing their labor time adequately a LOT harder than those that
already do.
But still...... as a businessperson, one still has to look at controlling
costs and as a responsible human being (who us?) also conserving on fossil
fuel (non-renewable) energy usage as much as possible anyway.
This issue will likely affect those with poorly insulated or designed kilns
most. It will also make firing large site built periodic kilns (with their
increased energy use efficiency) more attractive and far more competitive.
The woefully insulated and relatively tiny (large surface area to volume
ratio) commercial hexagonal electrics getting so much use will get
prohibitively expensive to fire........ relative to the volume of ware
produced per firing.
My solution to this whole issue from LONG ago (see below) .... was to
mainly fire with wood. Of course to do this you have to sort of fit your
lifestyle choices in with the firing priority..... which means moving to a
place that you CAN fire with wood.
I have been finish firing with(renewable)wood since 1968. The noborigama
here at my current studio (construction started in 1980) was built because
it is quite efficient in the use of the wood energy and labor over the
anagama style wood kiln or over a single chamber wood kiln. It was also
built to be relatively large for a one person workshop... which is far more
efficient than firing a smaller periodic kiln X times to fire the same
volume of work. Funny...... back then "energy costs" were the real hot
issue too...... remember the Carter Era ? We still haven't hit
the "real cost" of oil that we had back then. And that DID put a nuumber
of potters out of business then.
I still use propane here for bisquing in a single chamber kiln.... and
filling the 500 gallon tank is a real "ouch" moment these days . It
also powers a gas pilot on the noborigama dogima and for the afterburner
system.....but those are small consumptions. I also do overglaze enamels
(real low temp) in a small electric kiln... and that is getting
some "efficiency retrofit" soon.
Anyway......... rambling thoughts here after a "fast scan" of CLAYART
headers.
best,
...................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
JBaymore@compuserve.com
http://www.JohnBaymore.com
"Please use compuserve address for direct communications."
David Hendley on tue 9 aug 05
This is deju vu all over again. Paul's e-mail with a screaming all-cap
subject line sent my mind back to 1973. I was a beginning potter
at Big Creek Pottery school in California. There were several potters
in the area, and they were all distraught because of the HUGE
increases in the price, and disruptions in the supply of, propane
(The first oil embargo). It was like the apocalypse was arriving.
I remember thinking that a career as a potter was out of the
question - here I had spent a year working hard at it, but it was
not to be. Poor me.
30-plus years gives you a different perspective on things, but you
have to pay attention. For example, I knew 10 years ago that art
fairs as a primary way to sell pottery and make a living were on the
way down and eventually out. So, I concentrated my efforts on
building a way to sell pots without art fairs - a smooth transition.
I have also known for 10 years, especially for the last few years,
that oil was underpriced and we would be hit with a big whammy
one day. I responded by buying a fuel-efficient vehicle that can
pull a small trailer when needed, rather than another full-size van.
(I also moved a good chunk of my IRA retirement account, which
I have been building since I was 25, into oil stocks in the spring
of 2004. For every extra dollar I pay at the gas pump, my account
goes up by ten dollars).
Of course, I've fired exclusively with wood for 10 years, as well.
I also know that the economy will go up and down, and then up
and down again. In Texas, over the last 30 years, we have gone
through an oil boom, oil bust, and now boom again, real estate
boom, savings and loan property bust, and boom again. This is
why I earnestly admonish my fellow Clayart potters to not run up
debt in their business - things will always change.
So, there's really nothing new under the sun. It goes without saying
that you have to be smart and observant to be a potter.
And now that I have impressed you with my presage knowledge,
what do I see coming down the pike? Well, I would suggest
long-term potters go ahead and build up a good supply of materials.
Of course, you don't want to be storing tons of clay, but it is entirely
reasonable to go ahead and buy full bags of things like rutile,
copper carbonate, iron oxide, and so on, to protect yourself from
future price increases and worries.
David Hendley
I don't know nothin' but the blues, cobalt that is.
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
>i was just talking to a friend who does about 50 shows per year, i used to
> work at his studio about 5 years ago before starting my own, and nothing
> that he says about shows sounds very hopeful to me. Even big ones like Ann
> Arbor are about 1/2 the sales he made a few years ago and practically
> every
> show goes down a little more each year. The cost of gas to drive to these
> shows in a fully loaded van seems to always go up as sales go down; and he
> told me a lot of other potters he has been at the same shows as for years
> all say the same thing. He almost never even fires his gas kiln anymore
> due
> to fuel costs, opting for cone 6 electric stuff now. There is more to the
> story than that, but i can't help but wonder if there are a lot of other
> potters in the same boat since oil prices affect both transportation costs
> to shows and firing costs, not to mention consumer spending habits as
> well.
lela martens on tue 9 aug 05
>From: Earl Brunner
>
>One good key might be to take a look at parts of the world where energy has
>cost a LOT for awhile, like the UK or Europe. How are potters there
>surviving? Don't be doom and gloom, be flexible.
>Earl Brunner
>Las Vegas, NV
>
Alisa would know much more about the state of potters in Scandinavia than
I, but my own observations were potters generally do alright there.
Art/craft is such a fundamental part of the culture, the population is very
particular, high quality is expected and customers are willing to pay for
it.
The typical is studio, livingspace and showroom all connected. Most towns
have their potter, usually female working with ^6 electric.
My parents were young during the depression there. They told me people had
no choice but to cut way back in their consumption of everything,
imaginations bloomed. Worn-out sweaters, touques renewed as rainbow coloured
stockings and scarves. Broken bicycles pieced together, making a new one.
On the rare occasion they did buy, gifts they didn`t make themselves, the
quality was what counted. People `dressed` better than ever. Extras were
rare and the best. Much of this holds true today.
North Americans are very complacent about resources, we had better wake up
in a hurry.
It happened we had Scandinavian cousins and their families here last week.
My cousin was shocked at the number of plastic grocery bags used, commented
that the toilets didn`t have the `half flush`. Her brother, the wind-turbine
engineer, noted water left on to run down the drain.(not in this house)
The price of gas here ,where it`s pumped out, is hurting. Only the
occational Greyhound bus connection. The population small, the distances
great. Alberta nine times as big as Denmark. We combine our trips and make
sure the kiln is full.
I`d like to hear Russel`s observations.
Best wishes from Lela, climbing down from soap-box,re-reading to check there
not be ANYTHING said that might offend...ah, well...and off to get a 6$
haircut...she`s really good too!
ps. Husband and I also noted we saw only two very overweight people in
Denmark..we were there 3 weeks..must be all that bicycle riding...also, few
in Manhattan , all that walking. I`m looking forward to a return trip...to
both.
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on tue 9 aug 05
Hi Amanda,=20
Natural Gas will likely remain inexpensive in many areas for a long =
time.
Kilns which fire on used lubricating and cooking Oils also will enjoy =
inexpensive running.
Wood Kilns of course, if local fuel is abundant and cheap...but which of =
course require a lot more work to fire...
The 'Oil' prices and 'Gas' prices you are hearing about are related to =
Gasolene and traditional Heating Oils, and not Natural Gas.
And really, compared to inflation generally, and how much everything =
costs, they are not out of line alltogether.
In the early 1970s say, Gasolene was 22 cents a gallon, a Carton of =
Lucky Strikes as $2.75 at 'Safeway'...a very nice, clean used Car was an =
abundant choice for under 300.00 with many excellent ones less than =
200.00...and a nice home one could be proud of was to be had anywhere in =
the wider San Fran Bay area, from between say ten grand and twenty five =
grand, (and much less in the 'then' armpits like Oakland or Alameda) and =
a decent income allowing many luxuries was around a thousand a month.
This is not the case now, and few incomes have kept their ratio with =
normal living expenses.
Almost everything for most people now costs from ten to twenty times =
what it did then.
I was making around $1,200.00 a'month then, and I certainly am not =
making ten or twenty times that now!
Don't forget too, most of the 'prices' we pay for Gasolene and a lot =
else are twice or three times what they would have been otherwise by =
now, because of state or federal taxes on these commodities and on every =
phase of their production and carriage.
As much as the corporations might screw us, the states and feds screw us =
more.
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Amanda Stickney=20
I haven't started just yet, as I just got out of school, but seeing the =
prices and hearing about them enough, has made me skeptical about =
staying wth my cone 10 work which I just 'found' in a way. I don't want =
to have to discover work all over again because of the economy, but I =
refuse to be the typical 'starving artist.' I of course am going to get =
another job until I can really build my studio, but I need to start =
saving info now. I'm also curious as Paul is...what are other =
alternatives to just plain gas and oil???
Amanda
Kathi LeSueur on wed 10 aug 05
David Hendley wrote:
> This is deju vu all over again. Paul's e-mail with a screaming all-cap
> subject line sent my mind back to 1973. I was a beginning potter
> at Big Creek Pottery school in California. There were several potters
> in the area, and they were all distraught because of the HUGE
> increases in the price, and disruptions in the supply of, propane
> (The first oil embargo). >>>>>
When I moved to Texas in 1982 gas was $1.34 a gallon. When I moved back
to Ann Arbor in 1987 gas was $.99. So, when it hit $1.40 then $1.60 and
so on, I thought back to those days. Will it go back to $.99 a gallon? I
doubt it. In the 80's we did not have China competing for a dwindling
supply of oil. I guess we are starting to get a taste of what other
industrialized countries thought as we guzzled our way through the 80's
and 90's driving up the world prices for oil. In today's dollars, gas
isn't really up. Unfortunately, sales never kept pace with the price of
gas, and in fact have gone down >>
>
> <<> and down again. ...... This is why I earnestly admonish my fellow
> Clayart potters to not run up
> debt in their business - things will always change.>>>>
In the booming 90's as my fellow potters were buying new vans,
furniture, and splurging on vacations we were adding on to the studio,
buying equipment, paying down our mortgage, and investing. Things are
very tight now but our monthly expenditures are low enough that we can
probably survive it. I know others who are panicked.
I also saw this decline coming and got out of the art fair circuit. As
I've said before, I expect it to be dead in ten years. In ten years
I'll be 68. Most of the artists I know are about the same age. I doubt
many will be doing shows at 68. Go to any show and look for the young
artists. They just don't exist in numbers large enough to keep fairs
going. Even the ones out there are learning that it's a very hard way to
make a living. As sales go down shows continue to demand ever higher
fees. Part of this is that everyone wants a piece of the pie. Everyone
thinks that the artists (who are making tons of money!!!!) should fund
their downtown or non-profit organization or some other project. So, the
merchants at street fairs demand a portion of the fees for themselves.
The indoor facilities believe that tons of money is being made so they
demand ever higher fees from the promoters who use their facilities.
These fees are passed on to the exhibitor.
And, I think the public is just bored with art fairs. There is nothing
special about them anymore. No incentive to buy when your favorite
artist is at a different show in your area every weekend (thank you
Sourcebook). Maybe in ten years, if enough of them die, the younger
generation can take over, demand reasonable fees and start the whole
cycle over again. Maybe.
Kathi
Lee Love on wed 10 aug 05
Louis Katz wrote:
>Why cone six? prepare for the future, cone 1? Anyone ever use
>concrete pots?
Think outside the box: Maybe change fuels? How about cone 14 for under $8.00? That's my costs.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
"We can make our minds
so like still water
that beings gather about us
that they may see,...
....their own images, and so live for a moment with a clearer,
perhaps even with a fiercer life
because of our quiet." -- W. B. Yeats
pinacoid3000@LYCOS.COM on wed 10 aug 05
Hi all,
If only those of us in the UK were paying your prices! A gallon of petrol
here costs the equivalent of $6
Also remember that in addition to concerns regarding the cost of fuel for
kilns that you may see increased prices for your raw materials their
mining and processing is very energy demanding
Regards
Andy
Pfeiffer, Dan R (Dan) on wed 10 aug 05
>>>>Maybe in ten years, if enough of them die, the younger
generation can take over, demand reasonable fees and start the whole
cycle over again. >>>>>
How does anyone go about demanding reasonable fees? We have a local indoor
show we would like to get into and they would like to have more pottery in
the show but their fee is over $400. We will not pay that and will go to
other smaller ,cheaper, local shows.
Will this make them lower there fee next year, I don't think so, more likely
to rise it to cover fixed costs and lack of anyone coming to the show.
Dan & Laurel in Elkmont Al
Potters Council Members
Kathi LeSueur on wed 10 aug 05
Pfeiffer, Dan R (Dan) wrote:
>>>>>Maybe in ten years, if enough of them die, the younger
>>>>>
>>>>>
>generation can take over, demand reasonable fees and start the whole
>cycle over again. >>>>>
>
> How does anyone go about demanding reasonable fees? We have a local indoor
>show we would like to get into and they would like to have more pottery in
>the show but their fee is over $400. We will not pay that and will go to
>other smaller ,cheaper, local shows.
>Will this make them lower there fee next year, I don't think so, more likely
>to rise it to cover fixed costs and lack of anyone coming to the show.>>
>
No, they will likely not lower their fees. But, if enough artists stop
paying them the show will die and other shows will begin to look at
their fee structure. Some already have. Another solution is for artists
(I'm talking about you younger ones here with more energy) to start
your own shows. I do a show in February that was started by an artist.
It cost about $40 for one day. It's called an artists' garage sale.
There are no rules. No jurying. No exotic displays. Just a huge line of
people waiting to get in and buy.
Get together, find a building to rent for a day and put on your own
show. Stop complaining about the quality or the person next to you. Work
on your own quality. Charge just enough to cover costs, promote it
yourselves through postcards and fliers. Don't get fancy. And, if it
works DON'T BECOME A NON-PROFIT. Your organization will get taken over,
fees will rise, and you'll find yourself eliminated from the show.
Kathi
>
>
>
>
Craig Martell on wed 10 aug 05
Andy was commenting:
>If only those of us in the UK were paying your prices!
Hello Andy:
Quite right. I was in the UK a few years ago and took a motor trip to
Wales with a friend who lives in the midlands. I paid for the fuel because
he did all the driving. He has a small car and I was paying about $70
dollars US for a fill up. I then realized that we in the US were not doing
all that badly. Anyway it was a nice trip and worth every cent of gas. We
visited the Friths in Denbigh and Phil Rogers and Mick Casson.
>you may see increased prices for your raw materials their mining and
>processing is very energy demanding
Absolutely. I just got word of the increased price for ECC Super
Standard. It's gone up to $1495.00 US per pallet. I'm not going to be
able to use it any longer at that price. Fortunately I've formulated
another "porcelain" with US china clays and I can still afford them. Such
is life.
Not only the mining and processing costs are rising but so are trucking and
transport costs. We are seeing that with regard to just about everything
we purchase including groceries.
regards, Craig Martell Hopewell, Oregon
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sat 13 aug 05
Hi Steve,
Below...amid...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Slatin"
> Phil --
>
> Some thoughts --
>
> one, on oil and taxes -- a barrel of oil, 42 gals
> volume traditionally yielded about 20 gallons of
> gasoline (plus other saleable byproducts). The US
> gasoline tax is 18.4 cents, state taxes vary but the
> highest are around 30 cents (Rhode Island). That
> doesn't help with the cost, but it's not the majority
> of the cost.
This also gets multiplied with every kind of fuel tax or other tax which
figures into the transport and manufacture of fuels, and, the transport and
manufacture of all things related to the manufacture and transport of
fuels...
> Two, the formerly independent commodity markets in
> fuel oil, coal, hydro and natural gas are converging
> with the increasing number of marketed classes of
> power. Natural gas generation facilities are cheap to
> build and relatively clean; many utilities have one or
> more as backups for emergencies. When the cost of one
> fuel goes up, they use another to balance the costs.
Yea...like 'enron' say...you bet they wanted to see what they could do to
save us some dough every month for our electric bill...
> Then you have the influence of markets -- Bonneville
> Power hasn't built a new hydro dam in donkeys years,
> but they have been raising their rates dramatically in
> the last few -- the markets are becoming
> interconnected. There's also a worldwide shortage of
> natural gas, currently, and problems similar to oil in
> terms of exploration, exploitation, and cost. My last
> natural gas delivery was nearly $3 per gallon.
I would be pleased to open tomorrow's newspaper and find the banner headline
which proclaims that every one of these sons of bitches of stockholders and
ceos and lackys doing their bidding, ad all their golf-buddies, choked on a
bone and lay now with
hands 'folded' across their breasts...
> Your observations on inflation are most interesting.
> The early '70s are a hard time to get a fix on,
Not for me...
> though, as it was a high-inflation period and with
> national wage and price controls (1971, Nixon) on some
> items but not others, the market was distorted.
The 'market' has been distorted for quite a few generations now...
> Some items have had price changes largely due to
> government intervention (cigarettes being the best
> example) but others track far below the general
> inflation level.
Yes...
> I think to get a good feel for inflation over time you
> have to start with an uncontrolled time and compare
> with a later uncontrolled period.
Hard to do...the market, broadly, has allways been liable to bullshit and
manipulators and other factors of disingenue...
> Maybe the early
> '60s vs. the present? I'm not capable of remembering
> prices back that far.
I remember lots of things from the early '60s...
I remember lots of things from the earlish to mid to latter '50s.
I was not spending money however in those times to have the kinds of
memories as relate to costs of sundries and so on.
By 1968, I was making money and was aware of what various things cost.
One difference from then to now, is that anytime in the '60s or most of the
'70s even, any boy or girl say with a 'paper route' could buy a home and
live 'decently' ( in the San Francisco Bay Area anyway) and have a clean
used Car and a genteel life with reasonable
amenities, on very little income, and could do so if they posessed even a
modicum of creativity in almost any area of the country except
maybe some of NYC or a few very expensive exclusive places.
If you could swing a loan for ten grand, or assume an existing mortgage, you
could have a cute little home in San Francisco in a decent enough
neighborhood.
Lots of Oakland and Alameda you could squat or buy something for what now,
is around one week's rent or less for the 'same' property 9 if in better
condition now most likely!)
Many of these homes then sold for a
'dollar' if you promised to fix them up...from where the city nad claimed
them from abandonment.
Married couple raising children almost never saw both man and wife having to
'work'.
On and on...
This is not so now.
People are little more now, than chattle slaves of banks, and or slaves
choosing some quasi-autonomy to serve the various lackys and henchmen and
pimps and mediaries of banks. People are the whores of banks, one might say,
selling
themselves to fork over the dough to the pimps and tax collectors at every
insideous multiplicity of level and overlap. Governments are the whores and
pimps of banks.
Ugly, and antithetical to any real notion of Civilization.
The remaining solidarity of america, is it's contempt for itself and of
everyone for themselves and for everyone else, every day, day in and day
out, sleeping and waking, in a million more
or less disguises, or habits, or acquiescences, or habituated stupidities of
cynicism guised as 'getting ahead'...
Whatever attributable nobility of the social experiment that america was, is
over.
The 'experiment' was forgotten to favor more reliable degredation pragmatics
; contempt,
greed, cynicism, lust fueled by covert resentment, lies, disinformation,
deciet, manipulations, cover stories, emotional drama, and hatred disguised
as desire and as 'need'.
A night mare, a ubiquitous pandemic horror...
All the worse for how no one sees it.
"The what we do not see, is the absense in us of what would have seen it.."
Or something like that...
Oh well...
But of course now we have them pesky aye-rhabs to blame for mayhem and drama
and excitements and various orders of prrogression of changes to our lives.
And if one in ten thousand people can see through it, I will weep with
gratitude.
> Best wishes -- Steve S.
> -- Steve Slatin
Love,
Phil
las vegas
Millie Carpenter on sat 13 aug 05
yesterday my son and I were talking about the oil prices and effect
that they would have on us, as consumers, artists and business
people. First as consumers, like our customers, we might have to cut
back on some things to make up the difference that higher oil prices
will cause. And we (my family) are fortunate in that we have a lot of
things that we can cut back on, from simply making fewer trips in the
cars, eating out less, eating less expensive foods, drop cable tv,
drop back to dial up connection to the internet, or use the free one
at the library. But the truly wealthy, whom we as artist really need
to cultivate will economize in different ways, like my rich uncle (of
Blessed Memory) who during a down cycle of the stock market years ago
'economized' by taking a month long freighter cruise down the South
American coast instead of spending time traveling in Europe. These
people will always be able to buy our high end items. regular
customers will drop back a few price points and buy mugs instead of
casseroles.
one thing that as a business person to my advantage is that I am not
supporting a family with either my sporadic pottery making or my real
estate business, ( In the 36 years that we have been married, my
husband & I have used my salary as extra savings or special
extravagances, so that when I didn't work consistently we didn't have
to cut back) so I am able to keep putting anything I make back in to
the business. But by and large, I price things so that I am not
shorting my own paycheck. I saw first hand what happens when artists
don't charge properly for their time when I was a child. My Father was
a Graphic artist from just after WWII until he died in '69. he
consistently undervalued himself and when times were bad, he had no
way to cut back on expenses and still provide for us. When a water
main broke and flooded his studio, which was underinsured, we had some
really tough times.
So yes, oil prices may drive the improvident potter out of work. Or
the one who has not had the time to build up sufficient reserves to
weather the cycles that the economy goes through. that is the main
thing that I have tired to stress to my kids. Pay yourself first, 401
K , build up regular saving so that you have six months worth of
expenses saved up. Read the business section so that you aren't taken
by surprised by the economy, local or global. and build up a support
system like clayart.
Millie in Md. Where the heat and the pollution have made me grateful
for air conditioning, ice makers and fresh lemonade. Counting the days
until my son goes back to Tn to his last year ( please G-d) of college.
hopeful that my daughter will take more of her stuff as she moves into
a "new" old house that has beautiful turn of the century stained glass
windows. beautiful moldings in each room, and transoms over the
window that still open and close.
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