Leland Hall on fri 12 aug 05
When I read what follows:
"Call me over-cautious, but once you've caught a kiln shed on fire you
think twice about building a wooden structure around a kiln."
David Hendley
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
All I could think to say was: "No shit."
http://photobucket.com/albums/a236/pyromanic/
(Many will understand my emphatic response to David's comment. Those who
do not, might click on the above link for clarity. And I apologize for the
profanity, but really, what else could I say?)
Leland Hall
Before The Wheel Enterprises
La Pine, Oregon
Rick Bonomo on fri 12 aug 05
Comments are welcome for this new kiln shed design
http://ricks-bricks.com/kilnlog.htm
What am I forgetting?
Rick Bonomo
agita@shol.com
William & Susan Schran User on fri 12 aug 05
On 8/12/05 11:39 AM, "Rick Bonomo" wrote:
> What am I forgetting?
Don't forget to put the kiln in place on the slab before the building
starts. Hire a rigging company to place the kiln (their liability if kiln is
damaged).
--
William "Bill" Schran
Fredericksburg, Virginia
David Hendley on fri 12 aug 05
Rick, the inspiration for your design and the design itself are, of course,
lovely. I don't believe I've ever seen such a high-class kiln building (it
is
not a shed).
But, aesthetics aside, I would surely recommend that you build with
non-combustible materials such as steel and brick. I would be especially
hesitant about installing wood trusses above a kiln.
Here in Texas it would be obscene to put a kiln in such a fully enclosed
building. Even where you are, I think the option to keep it enclosed in
winter but being able to open up a whole wall or two in summer would
be beneficial.
Call me over-cautious, but once you've caught a kiln shed on fire you
think twice about building a wooden structure around a kiln.
David Hendley
I don't know nothin' but the blues, cobalt that is.
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
> Comments are welcome for this new kiln shed design
>
> http://ricks-bricks.com/kilnlog.htm
>
> What am I forgetting?
>
> Rick Bonomo
> agita@shol.com
Leland Hall on sat 13 aug 05
Jennifer,
My comments were probably not relevant to the original thread, and for that
I apologize. Or maybe they were. I don't know.
The shed I speak of was 30' by 10' pressure treated 4x4 post and frame,
douglas fir trusses, metal roof and metal siding on three sides. Open at
the back.
The shed contained two electric kilns, two gas raku kilns. The larger of
the electrics had been fired five days before the fire. (bisque)
Although I've come to suspect (for the most part) that the fire which took
my kiln shed and 1/2 my studio was my own darn fault, I will never know for
sure. (this occured approx. two weeks ago.)
After the fire was extinguished, the fire marshal and I examined the
breaker box and discovered that the 50 amp breaker which supplied the 45
amp kiln was vaporised. Gone. The fire marshal says this indicates a
direct short. I had done some extensive renewal of wiring in the control
panel of the larger kiln just previous to it's last use. I regret that I
did not disasemble the plug and examine the terminals at that time.
However I do not know that the plug was the cause of the fire. Could have
been a failed breaker. Guess it could have been a lot of things. All
kilns and the kiln shed were a total loss, as well as extensive structural
damage to the adjacent studio. Wether or not what remains of the studio is
salvagable is as yet undetermined.
For sure, I will hardwire kilns into a subpanel or breaker box from now on,
and am skeptical of wood frame buildings for such use. There were places
where the 220 supply was in contact with wooden structural members. Suspect
kiln was on concrete slab. Electric supply was in adjacent studio. Also,
when we rebuild, the kiln shed will be farther away from the studio. (they
were very close, like only 24" apart) I am now also a believer in metal
conduit. And mostly frequent inspection of ALL electric connections and
terminals.
Again, I realize that this thread began with the discussion of an elegant
and beautiful brick kiln shed design for a, I presume, gas kiln. (or was
it wood? Sorry, I don't remember) I apologise for the hijack, as well as
my initial reaction.
I think my next kiln shed may be concrete block and metal.
Sincerely,
Leland Hall
Before The Wheel Enterprises
La Pine, Oregon
On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 07:20:10 -0400, Jennifer Boyer
wrote:
>Hi Leland,
>Can you tell your tale of woe? Like how close was TOO close, and what
>kiln, and what caught fire?
>Jennifer
>On Aug 12, 2005, at 7:56 PM, Leland Hall wrote:
>
>> When I read what follows:
>>
>> "Call me over-cautious, but once you've caught a kiln shed on fire you
>> think twice about building a wooden structure around a kiln."
>> David Hendley
>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>> All I could think to say was: "No shit."
>>
>> http://photobucket.com/albums/a236/pyromanic/
>>
>> (Many will understand my emphatic response to David's comment. Those
>> who
>> do not, might click on the above link for clarity. And I apologize
>> for the
>> profanity, but really, what else could I say?)
>>
>>
>>
>> Leland Hall
>> Before The Wheel Enterprises
>> La Pine, Oregon
>>
>************************
>Jennifer Boyer
>Thistle Hill Pottery
>Montpelier, VT
>
>http://thistlehillpottery.com
Jennifer Boyer on sat 13 aug 05
Hi Leland,
Can you tell your tale of woe? Like how close was TOO close, and what
kiln, and what caught fire?
Jennifer
On Aug 12, 2005, at 7:56 PM, Leland Hall wrote:
> When I read what follows:
>
> "Call me over-cautious, but once you've caught a kiln shed on fire you
> think twice about building a wooden structure around a kiln."
> David Hendley
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> All I could think to say was: "No shit."
>
> http://photobucket.com/albums/a236/pyromanic/
>
> (Many will understand my emphatic response to David's comment. Those
> who
> do not, might click on the above link for clarity. And I apologize
> for the
> profanity, but really, what else could I say?)
>
>
>
> Leland Hall
> Before The Wheel Enterprises
> La Pine, Oregon
>
************************
Jennifer Boyer
Thistle Hill Pottery
Montpelier, VT
http://thistlehillpottery.com
Tom at Hutchtel.net on sun 14 aug 05
> and am skeptical of wood frame buildings for such use. There were places
> where the 220 supply was in contact with wooden structural members.
> Suspect
> kiln was on concrete slab. Electric supply was in adjacent studio. Also,
> when we rebuild, the kiln shed will be farther away from the studio.
> (they
A thing I knew before, and somewhat ignored when building our kiln shed was
that
as wood is repeatedly exposed to heat, the chemical makeup of the wood
changes and ultimately the kindling temperature of the wood gets down to
somewhere in the neighborhood of 160 degF.!!!!! That's right 160 degF.
I learned this in Wyoming where lots of log cabins have a flue pipe from a
wood stove running under the rafter logs. Every year 2 or 3 log cabins
would disappear and there would be warning articles in the paper.
When we had our fire, the fire dept. used an infrared gun to find any
hotspots....they were looking for 150 degF. Any higher and it could
reignite.
So this means that if wood is any closer than 3 feet to a heat source, after
x number of repeated heatings, you can have ignition. Our particular
distance, heat and materials gave us a factor of about 650 firings. Your
mileage may be way less since we had taken some precautions. This also
applies to electric as well as gas and wood kilns. It is the radiant heat
that is causing the changes in the combustible materials.
Tom Wirt
Hutchinson, MN
twirt@hutchtel.net
www.claycoyote.com
Millard Balfrery on sun 14 aug 05
Leland- Should I be so bold as to give my 2 cents worth on this thread. I am
a master plumber not an electrician, but if your kiln draws 45 amps at full
power, a 50 amp breaker is TOO small- 60 amp would be more like the proper sized
breaker. Cry one time and purchase the correct building materials.
I am in the final stages of relocating my electric kiln from inside my garage
because of the heat generated that works its way into the airconditioned
house (and fumes) and the potential fire hazard it is. My kiln is an old four ring
Olympic that draws 86 amps. As to properly size the breakers I installed the
kiln on (4) 30 amp breakers. On relocating the kiln I poured a 6"x4'x10'
concrete slab with reinforcing wire and rebar. The walls are 4"x4"x16" concrete
blocks laid on each side of the slab to 7' tall. I cut the final course by 4" on
the front side, to the top of the block against the wall so the roof would
have pitch and drain off water. I wove 3/8" rebar into 9" squares and put down
two layers of reinforcing wire. I formed the form for the roof from scaveneged
boiler crating, real estate plywood signs blown down from the two direct hits
from Jeanne and Frances. When pouring a concrete roof too much reinforcing on
the forms is a good thing. I poured four 60# concrete mix into each end
concrete block wall and six into the center 4"x16' solid poured column. For the roof
I lightened the mix by adding a gallon of perlite to each 60# bag of concrete
and about a quart of portland cement for extra strength. I mixed 33 sixty
pound sacrete this way with a drywall bit on a 1/2" D handle drill motor in about
two hours. Let the form sit to dry for a month Before removing the plywood,
4"x4"s, ect.. I left a 8"x8" hole on one side on the second course of block for
a recycled 110v Elkay electric water cooler fan to PUSH cool outside air into
the shed, rather than burn up exhaust fans by PULLING hot air thru it. All
the wiring is properly sized installed in electric metal tubing (emt) rather
than pvc which will fatigue under high heat and fail.
Today I bartered with my welder to heliarc the four 1/4"x1 1/2"x 6'6"
aluminum angle door frames. Tomorrow I pick up substancially reduced in price
1/8"x4'x8' water damaged aluminum sheeting to pop rivet to the outside of each door.
The point of all this is, if you remove every possible combustable
construction material, by using more costly and labor intensive materials to start out
with, it is actually cheaper in the long run and you will only have to do it
once.
I Hope This Helps, Millard
Leland Hall on mon 15 aug 05
My mistake, that was a 60 apm fuse at the time of the fire. The old Navy
electricion that helped me upgrade the breaker box had installed a 50. It
ran fine for several years, then it started tripping when firing. Thats
when I installed a new switch, some new wire inside the controll box,
checked all terminals in ctroll box, and all terminals at elements. Used
Oxyguard on all terminals. Then replaced the old 50 with 60.. Also
checked all clamps inside breaker box.
To my regret, I did not, (as I have so often in the past) check the plug,
or the terminals in the receptical. Why? Don't know. Am I mad as hell
about it? You bet. But of course, we are dealing with it.
So it seems obvious to me that it is "probable" that either I made a
mistake inside the control box of the kiln itself, or the problem was the
plug/receptical.
Or the breaker, which was new. If there was something else going on in the
breaker box, I missed it.
The real puzzle to me though is that the kiln had sat dormant appox 5 days.
A thirty cubic yard dumpster entirely full of "kiln shed and studio debris"
left my property early friday morning. I saved a bunch of dough by taking
a full week to load it by hand instead of hiring a back hoe.
I'll be far more vigilant in the future.
Thanks
Leland Hall
Before The Enterprses
La Pine, Oegon
Rick Bonomo on mon 15 aug 05
Kiln Log August 15, 2005=20
Considering that the acquisition/assembly of the kiln may be delayed =
until next year.
And so as to not disappoint my friends and laborers: I may build the =
kiln "room" next year, and the "bedroom" this year:
The question is: How far can I push the firewall toward the kiln and =
still be sure I have enough clearance around the kiln.
If it turns out to be a Geil, it's 48"X56": is 18" far enough away from =
an interior brick firewall?
Image: http://www.ricks-bricks.com/images/Kiln/Firewall.jpg
The whole rant: http://www.ricks-bricks.com/kilnlog.htm
Rick Bonomo
Gordon Ward on mon 15 aug 05
Hi Rick,
Call Paul Geil. He will send you specs and clearances. If you intend
to have it inspected, you may want to adhere to their published
recommendations. Anyway, 18" is too close. You will want easy access
all around, to burners on the sides and damper in back. You also
should follow his design for flue venting. It is most elegant, and
vents excess heat above the kiln.
Gordon
On Aug 15, 2005, at 4:25 PM, Rick Bonomo wrote:
> The question is: How far can I push the firewall toward the kiln and
> still be sure I have enough clearance around the kiln.
>
> If it turns out to be a Geil, it's 48"X56": is 18" far enough away
> from an interior brick firewall?
>
Rick Bonomo on tue 16 aug 05
Hey Gordo,
There didn't seem to be anything on that side of the Geil kiln to access
I guess I could make that space 2' and still have 2.5' on the other side =
(see below for space standards)
The seller of the used Geil kiln rejected my offer.
I'm talking to the Bailey rep this AM and the web page says 3' on all =
sides for Bailey kilns ??!
Thanks
Rick Bonomo
http://www.ricks-bricks.com/kilnlog.htm
Click here for Space Standards: =
http://www.ricks-bricks.com/images/space2.gif
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:01:59 -0700
From: Gordon Ward
Subject: Re: Kiln Shed Design
Hi Rick,
Call Paul Geil. He will send you specs and clearances. If you intend
to have it inspected, you may want to adhere to their published
recommendations. Anyway, 18" is too close. You will want easy access
all around, to burners on the sides and damper in back. You also
should follow his design for flue venting. It is most elegant, and
vents excess heat above the kiln.
Gordon
On Aug 15, 2005, at 4:25 PM, Rick Bonomo wrote:
> The question is: How far can I push the firewall toward the kiln and
> still be sure I have enough clearance around the kiln.
>
> If it turns out to be a Geil, it's 48"X56": is 18" far enough away
> from an interior brick firewall?
>
Gina Mars on tue 23 aug 05
Hi, I have been stressed out this week because of the gas kiln. I decided
to have it put in storage till I get a 100% ok from the propane gas company
and a plumber. I poured a 10by14 slab and found a place to get the metal
shed but never really thought about the gas. I raku fire regularly and
thought it will not be a problem. I need two 100 gallon propane tanks to
fire the twelve cubic alpine updraft kiln. I know my husband will choke me
if the lawn is ruined because this beast weighs 4000 pounds plus the
forklift! Also,permits in new york are like getting a colonoscopy if you
know what i mean. I stay awake at night thinking about it.Maybe someday I
will move to a place with more open space, maybe Texas next to David
Hendley.Thanks for listening, Gina Mars,Mars Pottery Long Island New York.
P.S Hi Marci Sherman will see you soon, too stressed right now.
Taylor from Rockport on tue 23 aug 05
Gina:
If you move next to David Hendley, I hope you like living in a cemetary.
I hold my breath every time I drive down the lane to his place.
Sorry to hear about your setbacks. I know just a smidge about that. I
won't give up if you don't give up. Here's to hooking up kilns!
Keep turnin',
Taylor
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:11:45 -0400, Gina Mars
wrote:
>Hi, I have been stressed out this week because of the gas kiln. I decided
>to have it put in storage till I get a 100% ok from the propane gas
company
>and a plumber. I poured a 10by14 slab and found a place to get the metal
>shed but never really thought about the gas. I raku fire regularly and
>thought it will not be a problem. I need two 100 gallon propane tanks to
>fire the twelve cubic alpine updraft kiln. I know my husband will choke me
>if the lawn is ruined because this beast weighs 4000 pounds plus the
>forklift! Also,permits in new york are like getting a colonoscopy if you
>know what i mean. I stay awake at night thinking about it.Maybe someday I
>will move to a place with more open space, maybe Texas next to David
>Hendley.Thanks for listening, Gina Mars,Mars Pottery Long Island New York.
>P.S Hi Marci Sherman will see you soon, too stressed right now.
Earl Krueger on tue 13 sep 05
On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 16:04 -0400, Rick Bonomo wrote:
> For those still interested in participating the the kiln shed design conundra:
> ...
> The draftsman tells me the roof will sweat without an undersheathing
Rick, I can verify what your draftsman told you. I once had an old 24'
X 60' steel building with no ceiling; just rafters, purlins and then the
steel roofing. There were lots of cracks, holes and such in the outside
walls where outside air could circulate through. Believe it or not, here
in the Seattle area it rained more inside that building than it did
outside.
I was told by construction experts that the proper way to deal with the
condensation was to put insulation right up against the steel roofing
which would keep the moist air from circulating against the cold metal.
They cautioned me to not just put up drywall on the underside of the
rafters since the air would still circulate through and the condensation
would then drip on the drywall and cause it to sag and allow mold to
grow. I can't tell you if that worked since soon after moving there my
job went away and we had to move again.
--
earl k...
bothell, wa, usa
Rick Bonomo on tue 13 sep 05
For those still interested in participating the the kiln shed design =
conundra:
Click here: http://www.ricks-bricks.com/kilnlog.htm
and the first three images
The questions are:
1.) How far above the top of the roof does it have to be?
2.) How far away from the peak of the roof is ideal?
3.) How the hell do I get the galvanized stack through the ?plywood? =
undersheating and galvanized steel roof?
The draftsman tells me the roof will sweat without an undersheathing
Rick Bonomo
William & Susan Schran User on tue 13 sep 05
Rick - You should contact Paul Geil before you get to far into this project.
He will provide you with all necessary clearances around and above the kiln.
We finished the installation of a Geil DLB-24 kiln this past summer in a
building with oriented strand sheathing under a metal roof. The hood and
stack, that was fabricated by Geil for this kiln, use an air space between
them and metal over rock wool to protect the surrounding wood sheathing.
Contact me privately and I'll send you schematic drawings from Geil showing
clearances.
--
William "Bill" Schran
Fredericksburg, Virginia
On 9/13/05 4:04 PM, "Rick Bonomo" wrote:
> The questions are:
> 1.) How far above the top of the roof does it have to be?
> 2.) How far away from the peak of the roof is ideal?
> 3.) How the hell do I get the galvanized stack through the ?plywood?
> undersheating and galvanized steel roof?
Rick Bonomo on wed 14 sep 05
William "Bill" Schran wrote:
Rick - You should contact Paul Geil before you get to far into this =
project.He will provide you with all necessary clearances around and =
above the kiln.We finished the installation of a Geil DLB-24 kiln this =
past summer in abuilding with oriented strand sheathing under a metal =
roof. The hood andstack, that was fabricated by Geil for this kiln, use =
an air space betweenthem and metal over rock wool to protect the =
surrounding wood sheathing.
Earl Krueger wrote:
Rick, I can verify what your draftsman told you. I once had an old 24'
X 60' steel building with no ceiling; just rafters, purlins and then the
steel roofing. There were lots of cracks, holes and such in the outside
walls where outside air could circulate through. Believe it or not, here
in the Seattle area it rained more inside that building than it did
outside. I was told by construction experts that the proper way to deal =
with the
condensation was to put insulation right up against the steel roofing
John Rohrbaugh wrote:
The farm store or whatever sells the galvanized roofing will have =
prefabricated flanged fittings to pass a smokestack through the roof. =
The idea is to isolate the stack as much as possible from the flammable =
components of the roof. When finished, there is nothing but steel for =
1' - 2' around stack, (more if the kiln produces extremely high temps). =
My relatively low temp gas furnace flue roof fitting has a metal box on =
the underside of the roof. I don't know if it is for heat distribution, =
fire containment, soot catching or what. There are 2 or 3 layers of =
galvanized steel making up the roof surface around the stack.
Thanks for all the input guys
I have been in contact with Paul Geil, but he hasn't been forthcoming =
with detailed plans as of yet. I'm sure this will happen when I actually =
place the order in December for delivery next spring. In the meantime: =
Exactly what material do I use as undersheathing? Styrofoam will ignite. =
Celotex?
Now my contractor says that the best place for a chimney is at the peak =
of the roof.
Rick Bonomo
www.ricks-bricks.com/kilnlog.htm
Rick Bonomo on thu 15 sep 05
In regards to the stack/vent/pipe/chimney....coming through the shed =
roof :
For the sake of discussion
And hopefully without violating any copyrights,
I've posted the illustrations from Rhodes and Olsens kiln books here:
http://ricks-bricks.com/images/Kiln/VentRhodes.jpg
http://ricks-bricks.com/images/Kiln/VentOlsen.jpg
and here: http://ricks-bricks.com/kilnlog.htm
Rick Bonomo
| |
|
