Tony Ferguson on thu 18 aug 05
To all,
Thinking on this, I think one's repulsion could simply maybe have to do with fear of death.
People do not want to be reminded of their frailty, their mortality, that we are all going to die some day and it is an assumption to think we will all live a full long life--a huge assumption.
Other cultures celebrate death and see it as a transition for a soul, spirit, energy force on its wayward journey. Our western culture fears it, denies it, abhors it, and condemns generally those that are interested in expressing its truisms be it in the name of science or art--and yet so much of our scientific and artistic development has been do to both scientists and artists searching for truth litterally in every corner of the human as well as animal, insect and other bodies. If one is shocked, maybe one needs to be to realize that we are finite--well, at least our bodies.
I find the inner working of the human body an amazing feat of design by whichever, evolutionary or spiritual (whatever fits into your mythos or belief system). My father who is an enginner said he learned in one of his courses that the human femur (leg bone) is by mathematical tense and purposes of supporting load and what have you, a perfect feat of engineering. There are other examples of this in the human body. The body is an amazing, beautiful yet temporary and still mysterious thing. I think the ugliness and fear of death sometimes prevents us from celebrating the bodies near perfection as a complete organic feat of design be it from the hand of God or evolution.
The body is our vehicle, whether we like it or not. Perhaps seeing the dead is a good reminder that we should use our time wisely--because that's all you have and you can't even take that to the grave or our opinions because by then it won't matter.
A hundred years from now what will people know us by? We will simply be a name and what little can be known of us will be the verbatim of our text and pottery--if we are lucky. And really, does it matter?
Tony Ferguson
Tony Ferguson
...where the sky meets the lake...
Duluth, Minnesota
Artist, Educator, Web Meister
fergyart@yahoo.com
fergy@cpinternet.com
(218) 727-6339
http://www.aquariusartgallery.com
http://www.tonyferguson.net
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mel jacobson on thu 18 aug 05
the world of art has taken another huge hit.
the cadaver show opens in florida.
dead bodies...stripped of skin.
as art.
you cannot make it up fast enough.
(and i thought i was being metaphorical with the
penis hanging out...) what does the public think...`artists are insane.`
i really do not want to be a part of it any longer...i introduce myself
as an `american craftsman.` period.
of course it is another `proof that i can do it` show.
`you cannot censor me`.
but, it is not art, in any way shape or form.
it is another form of obscenity.
i do put the blame squarely in the hands of the museum.
they do not have show that crap.
but, no...it is all about promotion.
barnum and bailey knew what they were doing.
mel
nearly 700,000 people viewed donald jackson's bible
project at the minnepolis inst of art this spring.
it was craft, craft, craft....and art over the entire
thing. beauty. not a soul that i know of...walked out
of the show with anything but respect.
not about religion...it was about art/craft.
the one comment you get over and over..`they did that
by hand..with a quill...the entire thing?` no shock value except
awwwww.
from mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
website: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
http://home.comcast.net/~figglywig/clayart.htm
for gail's year book.
Robert Seele on thu 18 aug 05
On Aug 18, 2005, at 6:11 AM, mel jacobson wrote:
> the world of art has taken another huge hit.
>
> the cadaver show opens in florida.
>
> dead bodies...stripped of skin.
snip
>
> but, it is not art, in any way shape or form.
> it is another form of obscenity.
I wonder if any of the men have an erection ?
If not maybe someone here can top what they have.
Bob Seele
Today a rooster, tomorrow a feather duster.
Marcia Selsor on thu 18 aug 05
OOPs, now I can't find where I saw that it was showing in Philly.
On Aug 18, 2005, at 1:43 PM, Marcia Selsor wrote:
> This show opened in Tokyo a year or two ago. It is old news. The show
> will be at the Phila. Museum of Art in Oct.
> Yes, Museum of Art.
> Marcia Selsor
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
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>
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>
>
Darnie Sizemore on thu 18 aug 05
I normally don't chime in on these discussions.
However I found this one interesting.
Is not the creation of the human body art in and of
itself? If one believes in a creator, then each one of
us is a creation of art. Why not study the inner
workings of these marvelous creations?
Do we as "artists" not dissect the works of the
masters? We pick apart, intellectualize, criticize,
and idolize these masterpieces so that we can learn
from them and make our creations better.
It seems, from the outside, that this human cadaver
show would be the same. An excellent way to study the
human form, and quite possibly appreciate it for art.
The inner workings of our bodies are a mystery, and to
see what the "insides" look like might inspire people
to take a deeper look at themselves.
Darnie
--- mel jacobson wrote:
> the world of art has taken another huge hit.
>
> the cadaver show opens in florida.
>
> dead bodies...stripped of skin.
> as art.
>
> you cannot make it up fast enough.
> (and i thought i was being metaphorical with the
> penis hanging out...) what does the public
> think...`artists are insane.`
> i really do not want to be a part of it any
> longer...i introduce myself
> as an `american craftsman.` period.
>
> of course it is another `proof that i can do it`
> show.
> `you cannot censor me`.
>
> but, it is not art, in any way shape or form.
> it is another form of obscenity.
>
> i do put the blame squarely in the hands of the
> museum.
> they do not have show that crap.
> but, no...it is all about promotion.
> barnum and bailey knew what they were doing.
> mel
> nearly 700,000 people viewed donald jackson's bible
> project at the minnepolis inst of art this spring.
> it was craft, craft, craft....and art over the
> entire
> thing. beauty. not a soul that i know of...walked
> out
> of the show with anything but respect.
> not about religion...it was about art/craft.
> the one comment you get over and over..`they did
> that
> by hand..with a quill...the entire thing?` no shock
> value except
> awwwww.
> from mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
> website: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
> http://home.comcast.net/~figglywig/clayart.htm
> for gail's year book.
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
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David Gallagher on thu 18 aug 05
The art or the erection?
Robert Seele wrote:
I wonder if any of the men have an erection ?
If not maybe someone here can top what they have.
Bob Seele
Today a rooster, tomorrow a feather duster.
______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
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settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
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John Baymore on thu 18 aug 05
mel-san,
Interesting. Didn't know about that one.
Even this supposedly "cutting edge" garbage is likely derivative.......
(unfortunately) it's been done before.... in another "weird period" in
history. Don't know what THAT says about America.
Check out "DaDa" as an "art movement".
best,
.............john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
JBaymore@compuserve.com
http://www.JohnBaymore.com
"Please use compuserve address for any direct communications."
Weiland, Jeff on thu 18 aug 05
Hey guys,
Get off the garbage. If I wanted to read trash talk, there are plenty of
other sites or just listen to some of the hormonal teenagers in my high
school classes.=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of David
Gallagher
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 9:55 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: art takes another hit
The art or the erection?
Robert Seele wrote:
I wonder if any of the men have an erection ?
If not maybe someone here can top what they have.
________________________________________________________________________
______
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Kimberly Tompkins on thu 18 aug 05
Heya clayarters! I'm a lurker on here. I'm new to ceramics so... I
don't really have much input to offer. I just glean all the useful
knowledge you guys have to offer a newbie. ;-)
Getting to the point, I thought I'd mention that the Bodies exhibition
isn't being billed as an art exhibit. It can be argued that it's art,
but the show seems to be less about "novel cadaver poses" and more
about the beauty and complexity of human anatomy.
It's being shown in Tampa's Museum of Science & Industry. From their
mouth's: "With educational relevance for all ages, this exhibition of
real human specimens immerses visitors in the complexities of the
human body, telling us the amazing story of ourselves with reverence
and understanding. " (Found at official site
http://www.bodiestheexhibition.com/)
The main controversy regarding this exhibit is not the tastelessness
or shock value of viewing human remains. There is an ethical concern
about some Chinese bodies who were not identified or claimed at death.
The fact is, these individuals probably did not consent for their
bodies to be publicly displayed for educational or medical reasons. =20
Florida's Anatomical Board was only recently informed about this.=20
That's why there's been so much talk about emergency meetings and
potential shut-downs.
(More links: =20
http://sptimes.com/2005/07/23/Tampabay/MOSI_lands_human_bodi.shtml
http://www.wtsp.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=3D17578
http://www.tampabaylive.com/stories/2005/08/050812mosi.shtml)=20
Also, Bodies isn't affiliated with controversial Body Works exhibit.=20
Then again, it will be interesting to see if the public feels that
'Bodies' treats its subject with more reverence and dignity than the
others. It opens on the 20th, so we'll know soon enough!
Kimberly Tompkins on thu 18 aug 05
Oops! For all my re-reading I still have a few typos!
I meant to say... not affiliated with Body Worlds.
And Gunther von Hagen's show too.=20
Sorry!=20
On 8/18/05, Kimberly Tompkins wrote:
> Also, Bodies isn't affiliated with controversial Body Works exhibit.
> Then again, it will be interesting to see if the public feels that
> 'Bodies' treats its subject with more reverence and dignity than the
> others. It opens on the 20th, so we'll know soon enough!
>
Marcia Selsor on thu 18 aug 05
This show opened in Tokyo a year or two ago. It is old news. The show
will be at the Phila. Museum of Art in Oct.
Yes, Museum of Art.
Marcia Selsor
Steve Van Cleave on thu 18 aug 05
I usually don't post much at all, let alone on
cause-consuming/polarized opinion subjects.
I see nothing inherently obscene in the display. Shocking...maybe,
maybe not. My understanding is that it was more of a
historical/anthropological/natural history context. I seriously doubt
there was an intent to shock. I believe many of its viewers will find
the display to be a unique opportunity well worth the time to visit.=20
I know you are the "curator" of this list, but I wonder if your
response was a bit reflexive (read knee jerk)?
You can disavow use of the word art in the context of your work if you
want to, but that will only serve to reinforce the notion that
shocking garbage is art and your beautiful pots are not. I disagree
with you on that one too.
OK gentlemen and gentlewomen, I've got my ceramic flak jacket on...
Steve
On 8/18/05, mel jacobson wrote:
> the world of art has taken another huge hit.
>=20
> the cadaver show opens in florida.
>=20
> dead bodies...stripped of skin.
> as art.
>=20
> you cannot make it up fast enough.
> (and i thought i was being metaphorical with the
> penis hanging out...) what does the public think...`artists are insane.`
> i really do not want to be a part of it any longer...i introduce myself
> as an `american craftsman.` period.
>=20
> of course it is another `proof that i can do it` show.
> `you cannot censor me`.
>=20
> but, it is not art, in any way shape or form.
> it is another form of obscenity.
>=20
> i do put the blame squarely in the hands of the museum.
> they do not have show that crap.
> but, no...it is all about promotion.
> barnum and bailey knew what they were doing.
> mel
> nearly 700,000 people viewed donald jackson's bible
> project at the minnepolis inst of art this spring.
> it was craft, craft, craft....and art over the entire
> thing. beauty. not a soul that i know of...walked out
> of the show with anything but respect.
> not about religion...it was about art/craft.
> the one comment you get over and over..`they did that
> by hand..with a quill...the entire thing?` no shock value except
> awwwww.
> from mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
> website: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
> http://home.comcast.net/~figglywig/clayart.htm
> for gail's year book.
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
_____
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>=20
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>=20
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclin=
k.com.
>
claybair on thu 18 aug 05
I don't know Mel.
I don't feel art is taking a hit at all.
This one doesn't bother me in the least.
I researched it briefly online. It was not done by
artists. The bodies were meticulously prepared....
not by artists but by scientists. I don't think this is an
art/craft issue.
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/07/23/Tampabay/MOSI_lands_human_bodi.shtml
Frankly I do not see what could be wrong with such an exhibit.... but then
I as I grew up I frequented the Franklin Museum as well as the Philadelphia
Art Museum, University Museum, Rodin Museum and later the Mutter Museum.
I saw the human form from many different angles..... scientific and
artistic.
What could be wrong with educating the public as to what they are
walking around in and with???
What makes the body so sacred that it cannot be studied? Cadavers as
far as I know were people who, while alive, donate their bodies to science.
Nothing is violated. It's not like a grave was robbed or burial ground
disturbed
or last wishes ignored.
As far as I am concerned the human form is a work of art... inside and out!
That science is able to study and display it in it's entirety is utterly
fascinating to me.
I'd go to the show if not for being over 3000 miles away.
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
Tucson, AZ
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of mel jacobson
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 4:12 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: art takes another hit
the world of art has taken another huge hit.
the cadaver show opens in florida.
dead bodies...stripped of skin.
as art.
you cannot make it up fast enough.
(and i thought i was being metaphorical with the
penis hanging out...) what does the public think...`artists are insane.`
i really do not want to be a part of it any longer...i introduce myself
as an `american craftsman.` period.
of course it is another `proof that i can do it` show.
`you cannot censor me`.
but, it is not art, in any way shape or form.
it is another form of obscenity.
i do put the blame squarely in the hands of the museum.
they do not have show that crap.
but, no...it is all about promotion.
barnum and bailey knew what they were doing.
mel
nearly 700,000 people viewed donald jackson's bible
project at the minnepolis inst of art this spring.
it was craft, craft, craft....and art over the entire
thing. beauty. not a soul that i know of...walked out
of the show with anything but respect.
not about religion...it was about art/craft.
the one comment you get over and over..`they did that
by hand..with a quill...the entire thing?` no shock value except
awwwww.
from mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
website: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
http://home.comcast.net/~figglywig/clayart.htm
for gail's year book.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/77 - Release Date: 8/18/2005
Ron Wright on thu 18 aug 05
They have the "body works" exhibit in Chicago until Sept 5.
It really is very interesting. Not gross , very well done.
It's not art, it's science. At $21 to get in it's also making money
(being a plubic servant, I get in for free).
They should have had one of the bodies at a kick wheel so that you
could see what muscles you are straining.
Ron Wright
3 Dogs Pottery
mel jacobson wrote:
> the world of art has taken another huge hit.
>
> the cadaver show opens in florida.
>
> dead bodies...stripped of skin.
> as art.
>
Vince Pitelka on thu 18 aug 05
> Check out "DaDa" as an "art movement".
John -
Hoping not to get TOO far off-topic, but just what is your point above, with
the quotes around "art movement?" Dada is acknowledged as one of the key
art movements of the 20th century. Like all the most important art
movements through history, it provided a catalyst, giving artists license to
expand the envelope, break the barriers. I am always amazed that anyone is
at all surprised by ANYTHING that has happened in 20th and 21st century art.
I mean, my god, just look at what has happened to 20th and 21st century
popular culture, communication, technology, entertainment, etc. How could
art have evolved otherwise?
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Lee Love on fri 19 aug 05
Darnie Sizemore wrote:
to take a deeper look at themselves.
>It seems, from the outside, that this human cadaver
>show would be the same. An excellent way to study the
>human form, and quite possibly appreciate it for art
What I first thought of when I saw ads for this show a couple weeks ago, was that this plastisization might be a better way to create medical specimines (I think this is what the technology was developed for.) When I was studying anatomy, everything was preserved with formaldihyde. We now know it is a health hazard. This new preservation technique would eliminate that problem and possibly allow more than one set of medical students to use the same body.
David Gallagher wrote:
>Mel,
> Is this the show in Tampa? At the "Tampa Museum of Science and Industry"?
>http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Florida/03FloridaSTAT03081305.htm
>
>
My wife Jean wonders if Mel is
going to give up "science." ;-)
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs
"The way we are, we are members of each other. All of us. Everything.
The difference ain't in who is a member and who is not, but in who knows it and who don't."
-- Burley Coulter (Wendell Berry)
pinacoid3000@LYCOS.COM on fri 19 aug 05
Im surprised that no one has commented about the allegations as to the
source of the cadavers: condemned prisoners whos execution was tailored to
suit the demands of the subsequent exhibition
Now if true THAT is offensive
Regards,
Andy
Peter Cunicelli on fri 19 aug 05
I saw an interview with the man who has created the exhibition. I believe
he's a German guy. He stated that all the bodies were donated. Nobody is
on display who didn't expressly wish to be. In fact, he intends on
donating his body once he has died.
I think the real tragedy with the people attempting to shut the exhibit
down is their unmitigated gaul in attempting to censor what other people
should see! If they find it offensive then don't go see it! Why do people
like this feel the need to push their views on everyone?
Isn't that simple?
I *think* I read that it's coming to Philadelphia. I can't wait to see
it. Someone on here mentioned how the body itself is a work of art. I
couldn't agree more! I think it will be fascinating to see just what's in
side of us as well.
Peter
(www.petercunicelli.com)
John Baymore on fri 19 aug 05
Hoping not to get TOO far off-topic, but just what is your point above,
with the quotes around "art movement?"
Hi Vince,
In that part of the comments, it is purely the limitation of working in a
plain text environment. There are only two ways to highlight text for all
the various reasons one might want to..... quotation marks and all caps.
I figured for sure that mel knew the term "DaDa" ......... but I was
thinking that there might be a lot of people reading the postings on this
who might not. I originaly typed something like "Check out DaDa." Had I
the ability to use italics for those two words in that scentence I ended
up with.... I would have. Figured that someone might do a web search on
the two terms together..... knowing that searching the term "DaDa" alone
would likley bring up lots of hits that probably would have nothing to do
with art..... but maybe oriented to stuff like fatherhood .
I'm certainly aware of and appreciate the importance of the general
contributions of the movement. However, I also did not appreciate the
human cadaver body part work from that period that I have seen. I still
do not like the general concept. It is easy to understand the genesis of
how it developed... what with the World War so close to people's minds and
experiences. As an artist it's important to know about that part of the
DaDa movement........ but it doesn't mean I have to like it.
Speaking of body parts ...... how's the leg coming along?
best,
................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
JBaymore@compuserve.com
http://www.JohnBaymore.com
"Please use compuserve address for any direct commuincations."
David Gallagher on fri 19 aug 05
If someone signs over their body to medical science, things are done much differently than what many people would think was a "respectable" way to handle a body.
If some one is go to die, signs their body over for research or "science", and the situation is going to be controlled anyway, what is wrong with that?
pinacoid3000@LYCOS.COM wrote:
Im surprised that no one has commented about the allegations as to the
source of the cadavers: condemned prisoners whos execution was tailored to
suit the demands of the subsequent exhibition
Now if true THAT is offensive
Regards,
Andy
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Rick Bonomo on fri 19 aug 05
Art?/Craft?/Art?/Craft?/Art?/Craft?/Art?/Craft?/
Ride, ride my see-saw,Take this placeOn this tripJust for me. (Moody =
Blues)
http://www.lyricseek.net/Moody%20Blues%20Ride%20My%20SeeSaw%20lyrics.asp
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:04:29 -0500
From: Vince Pitelka
Subject: Re: art takes another hit
> Check out "DaDa" as an "art movement".
John -
Hoping not to get TOO far off-topic, but just what is your point above, =
with
the quotes around "art movement?" Dada is acknowledged as one of the =
key
art movements of the 20th century. Like all the most important art
movements through history, it provided a catalyst, giving artists =
license to
expand the envelope, break the barriers.=20
Will we ever figure it out?
DuChamp grabbed a coke stand and said " Ready Made!"
What a cheap trick? What was he really saying? This is a piece of art.
Pollock spent time action painting drips upon canvas.=20
Then the fans go ga ga over the result.
It's not the result, that's artifact. The art is the execution.
Calder was invited to show his wire sculptures in Europe one time.
He showed up without the sculptures !! Where's the artwork they said ?? =
!!
He pulled a ball of wire out of his pocket and started to bend it. =
"Here's the art."
Warhol spent years as a commerical artist.
Then made Brillo boxes and Soup Cans as art.
What was he saying? There is art all around you - just open your eyes.=20
You don't have to go to a museum, or have a curator tell you what is =
art.
Is performance art art? Is theater art?
As potters we make alot of artifacts. Then get too attached to the =
thing.
They are just things.
We need more " Action Potting"
Please read " Wabi- Sabi"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1880656124/102-4609403-9628=
120?v=3Dglance
Rick Bonomo
www.ricks-bricks.com/pottery.htm
pinacoid3000@LYCOS.COM on fri 19 aug 05
Hello Peter and others,
Have a look at these two articles:
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/b/bo/body_worlds.htm
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1518901,00.html
The designation of the exhibition as art or offensive is personal and
subjective but some of the allegations are so distasteful that surely any
decent human being would approach it with caution
Regards,
Andy
pinacoid3000@LYCOS.COM on fri 19 aug 05
Hello David,
I m aware from my own experience what happens to human bodies in
Universities where strict regulations are in place, and this is not what
everyone might consider proper though it is necessary for education.
Voluntary donation of bodies to Research and academic institutes is
unrelated to the exhibition being discussed. There have been some very
disturbing allegations made in respected media about the source of the
bodies. To quote from an easy to find on-line site: =91There have been
allegations that von Hagens used the bodies of executed Chinese prisoners.
These have been backed up by documents from the corpse-processing facility
in Dalian in northeastern China.=92 Reference:
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/b/bo/body_worlds.htm
Also : http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1518901,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3420483.stm
Of course I have no way of knowing the facts but after reading these are
you entirely comfortable with the show?
Regards,
Andy
Debbie on fri 19 aug 05
> I am always amazed that anyone is at all surprised by ANYTHING that has
> happened in 20th and 21st century art.
> I mean, my god, just look at what has happened to 20th and 21st century
> popular culture, communication, technology, entertainment, etc. How could
> art have evolved otherwise?
> - Vince
Can it be said that dinosaurs are still with us because we have birds in the
world today?
Maybe something can evolve right into a different category .
Best Wishes, Debbie
David Gallagher on mon 22 aug 05
Hey Andy,
Honestly, I really don't care where they come from. I would care if they were exicuted "for" the exhibit. But I don't really see an issue with using the bodies. Since they are dead, why not use them for something usefull? But I have little to no respect for the body of anything after it is dead. Yeah Im one of those people that thinks that people shouldnt be burried because it takes up good land.
I can understand you side though. I mean, if he did knowingly use prisioners who didnt voulenter (which the articles don't say), it raises questions for sure.
pinacoid3000@LYCOS.COM wrote:
Hello David,
I m aware from my own experience what happens to human bodies in
Universities where strict regulations are in place, and this is not what
everyone might consider proper though it is necessary for education.
Voluntary donation of bodies to Research and academic institutes is
unrelated to the exhibition being discussed. There have been some very
disturbing allegations made in respected media about the source of the
bodies. To quote from an easy to find on-line site: ‘There have been
allegations that von Hagens used the bodies of executed Chinese prisoners.
These have been backed up by documents from the corpse-processing facility
in Dalian in northeastern China.’ Reference:
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/b/bo/body_worlds.htm
Also : http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1518901,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3420483.stm
Of course I have no way of knowing the facts but after reading these are
you entirely comfortable with the show?
Regards,
Andy
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pinacoid3000@LYCOS.COM on mon 22 aug 05
Hello David,
Thanks for your reply. In some press reports from respected media
organisations there have been very disturbing allegations. These have
included not just the use of prisoners bodies but that 1) the method of
execution was tailored to suit the demands of the exhibition; a bullet in
the back of the head would damage the result 2) the people undertaking the
preparation of the bodies were notified in advance when =91suitable
material=92 would be available
I dont know the facts however what Ive heard makes me uncomfortable enough
to avoid the show
Regards,
Andy
David Gallagher on tue 23 aug 05
Hey Andy,
Maybe Im playing the red guys advocate here but... (All this is reliant on the assumption that the prisioners voluentered)
"the method of execution was tailored to suit the demands of the exhibition;"
Well, why is that a bad thing? If the person isnt made to suffer in the execution, what does it matter? Dead is dead no matter how you get there. I would rather get a lethal injection than a bullet in the back of the head, bullet in the head doesnt gaurentee a quick death.
"a bullet in the back of the head would damage the result"
is this a quote or your thought? But of course, look at it in a logical way. A person is going to be executed, he/she is going to donate their body, the government makes consessions to preserve the body in a useable manner.
"the people undertaking the preparation of the bodies were notified in advance when ‘suitable material’ would be available"
Is it the terminology that bothers you here? Would it be better if "Bill Smith" is available?
pinacoid3000@LYCOS.COM wrote:
Hello David,
Thanks for your reply. In some press reports from respected media
organisations there have been very disturbing allegations. These have
included not just the use of prisoners bodies but that 1) the method of
execution was tailored to suit the demands of the exhibition; a bullet in
the back of the head would damage the result 2) the people undertaking the
preparation of the bodies were notified in advance when ‘suitable
material’ would be available
I dont know the facts however what Ive heard makes me uncomfortable enough
to avoid the show
Regards,
Andy
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pinacoid3000@LYCOS.COM on tue 23 aug 05
Hello David,
Whilst Im more than happy you playing Devils advocate but I cant say
theres tremendous much in your post that Id agree with:
=91... assumption that the prisoners volunteered=92 How much free will would=
a
condemned prisoner have? The extent of duress can only be imagined
And I can not see how selecting the means of a human beings death to suit
the requirements of subsequent public entertainment is anything other than
morally repugnant
As for your question about the origin of "a bullet in the back of the head
would damage the result." This was just my crude way of summarising some
of the claims; it has been alleged that execution methods were selected to
ensure damage was minimised to what would become an exhibit
=91A person is going to be executed, he/she is going to donate their body,
the government makes concessions to preserve the body in a useable
manner.=92 One, but not only, concern is the possible lack of voluntary
donation
It is not terminology of =91suitable material=92 that bothers me. It is the
possible planning and transaction of human deaths that appals me
Again I don=92t know about the validity of these charges
Regards
Andy
David Gallagher on tue 23 aug 05
Andy,
I guess were sitting on two sides of the fence. I see people, sentenced to death (presumably for doing something illegal enough to be senteced to death) donating their bodies for the greater public education. You seem to see people being forced into it. In your model, I would agree with you.
Your view (in defense of human life) is ironically pessimistic. Why is there assumed duress? What force would a government have over a condemned person. "Voluntere or we will kill you twice"?
I honestly dont support death as a punishment (but I really dont want to get into that), But the manner it happens seems very irellevant. To use your own example, people (when being exicuted) aren't usually shot in the head, and not for practicle reasons but emotional. Bullets are cheap, but messy, and no one wants to mop up brains. So we use non-messy means to execute people now. Is that morally repugnant as well?
"It is not terminology of ‘suitable material’ that bothers me. It is the
possible planning and transaction of human deaths that appals me"
This happens every day, for medical research as I pointed out in the begining of this... and I dont see what the difference is if you remove the possible lack of voluntary
donation
pinacoid3000@LYCOS.COM wrote:
Hello David,
Whilst Im more than happy you playing Devils advocate but I cant say
theres tremendous much in your post that Id agree with:
‘... assumption that the prisoners volunteered’ How much free will would a
condemned prisoner have? The extent of duress can only be imagined
And I can not see how selecting the means of a human beings death to suit
the requirements of subsequent public entertainment is anything other than
morally repugnant
As for your question about the origin of "a bullet in the back of the head
would damage the result." This was just my crude way of summarising some
of the claims; it has been alleged that execution methods were selected to
ensure damage was minimised to what would become an exhibit
‘A person is going to be executed, he/she is going to donate their body,
the government makes concessions to preserve the body in a useable
manner.’ One, but not only, concern is the possible lack of voluntary
donation
It is not terminology of ‘suitable material’ that bothers me. It is the
possible planning and transaction of human deaths that appals me
Again I don’t know about the validity of these charges
Regards
Andy
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Randall Moody on tue 23 aug 05
August 23, 2005=20
TAMPA, Fla. --More than 12,000 people came to the Museum of Science and=20
Industry in the first four days of an exhibit featuring preserved human=20
cadavers and body parts, breaking records set by a 2003 exhibit about the=
=20
Titanic, museum officials said.
=20
Apparently there is a lot of money in death.=20
=20
On 8/23/05, pinacoid3000@lycos.com wrote:
>=20
> Hello David,
> Whilst Im more than happy you playing Devils advocate but I cant say
> theres tremendous much in your post that Id agree with:
>=20
> '... assumption that the prisoners volunteered' How much free will would =
a
> condemned prisoner have? The extent of duress can only be imagined
>=20
> And I can not see how selecting the means of a human beings death to suit
> the requirements of subsequent public entertainment is anything other tha=
n
> morally repugnant
>=20
> As for your question about the origin of "a bullet in the back of the hea=
d
> would damage the result." This was just my crude way of summarising some
> of the claims; it has been alleged that execution methods were selected t=
o
> ensure damage was minimised to what would become an exhibit
>=20
> 'A person is going to be executed, he/she is going to donate their body,
> the government makes concessions to preserve the body in a useable
> manner.' One, but not only, concern is the possible lack of voluntary
> donation
>=20
> It is not terminology of 'suitable material' that bothers me. It is the
> possible planning and transaction of human deaths that appals me
>=20
> Again I don't know about the validity of these charges
>=20
> Regards
> Andy
>=20
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
_____
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>=20
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>=20
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at=20
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
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